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Thread: Are Kemba Walker and Jerryd Bayless redundant?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Okay.

    If they draft Walker, they can keep Walker if he starts off on the bench. I'll acquiesce on that point. Bayless deserves his chance if its between him and Walker. Of that there's no doubt in my mind. They can battle it out in practice and be extra sharp for the games.

    If they draft Irving, I actually think Calderon's sticking around and Bayless is the one that's going to be moved. Just a hunch.

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    Jerryd bayless averaged career highs in:

    PPG - went from 8.5 to 10
    SPG - .4 to .6
    APG - went from 2 to 4
    3pt% - 30% to 35%
    FG% - 41 to 43%

    and he played around 22 mpg. Now imagine if we started him and gave him around 30+ mpg. He'd be averaging almost double the points and Assists. This guy has a huge upside, if he uses his time well in the off season he will be a great starter for us.

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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    Jerryd bayless averaged career highs in:

    PPG - went from 8.5 to 10
    SPG - .4 to .6
    APG - went from 2 to 4
    3pt% - 30% to 35%
    FG% - 41 to 43%

    and he played around 22 mpg. Now imagine if we started him and gave him around 30+ mpg. He'd be averaging almost double the points and Assists. This guy has a huge upside, if he uses his time well in the off season he will be a great starter for us.
    My issue with Bayless is not whether he can put up stats, but whether he can run an offense and make those around him better. I haven't seen any of that so far. And those are the two most important things for a PG, in my opinion.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    My issue with Bayless is not whether he can put up stats, but whether he can run an offense and make those around him better. I haven't seen any of that so far. And those are the two most important things for a PG, in my opinion.
    We have seen flashes of that this season. I think the reason for that is because he hasn't gotten much of a chance to play. He is actually a good passer he just needs more Playing time to show case it. But he still needs to work on some things this off season

  5. #45
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Okay.

    If they draft Walker, they can keep Walker if he starts off on the bench. I'll acquiesce on that point. Bayless deserves his chance if its between him and Walker. Of that there's no doubt in my mind. They can battle it out in practice and be extra sharp for the games.

    If they draft Irving, I actually think Calderon's sticking around and Bayless is the one that's going to be moved. Just a hunch.
    I believe Bayless needs to earn the starting gig and what he did this year did not accomplish that. What kind of message does it send if Bayless were to be handed it just because he played here last season? If they draft a PG there should be a battle for it. If they don't draft a PG there still should be a battle for it.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I believe Bayless needs to earn the starting gig and what he did this year did not accomplish that. What kind of message does it send if Bayless were to be handed it just because he played here last season? If they draft a PG there should be a battle for it. If they don't draft a PG there still should be a battle for it.
    Bayless has earned the right to start next season. Obviously I wouldn't have argued as I did in this thread if I felt otherwise.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    he'll battle.That is Bayless we are talking about.One thing I almost never see in other players is his fire,his DESIRE to win.And those are the type of players that you WANT on your team.I'm sorry but as dumb as it seems I prefer to watch Bayless loose a game but to play like he did instead of watching a bad night for Calderon win.And by the way he earned the starting job with the way he played ALL season.Yes,I wrote all season.He played the way his coaches wanted him to play.Yea,he didn't produce that well off the bench some night but when he started he played great.In fact he played better than Calderon and until some of those rooks - Irvings,Walkers,knights show better performances than him they should keep their asses on the bench and work on their games to be better.I personally don't believe any one of them better than Bayless.I haven't seen them play a single minute in the NBA.Until that happens they aren't better than him.And if Walker and Bayless are redundant I wrote why that is again a good thing for your team in eez_bee's topic about redundancy.

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    I rate Bayless higher than a lot of Raptor fans seem to. I love his fire, and I love his ability to get to the rim. I still think (and did before his end of the season tear) that he has all the tools to be a true blue chip.

    From what I've seen and read of Kemba, he looks like the next Jameer Nelson to me. I'd rather take a risk on another guy with elite potential (Valanciunas?) than take one with the potential to be good (Walker).

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    What does a younger player have to do to "earn" the starters role over Jose Calderone?
    How about beating him in almost every category.
    This is from a post by Maleko.

    Okay, so side-by-side - Jerryd vs. Jose as starters - all stats, here we go:

    Points Produced / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless 20.6, Calderon 14.8 (Bayless, + 5.8)
    % of Team's Possessions Borne Individually while on the floor: Bayless 24.5%, Calderon 19.1% (Bayless, + 5.4%)
    ORat: Bayless 121.9, Calderon 112.5 (Bayless, + 9.4)
    effective FG%: Bayless 53.7%, Calderon 50.5% (Bayless, 3.2%)
    True Shooting %: Bayless 59.1%, Calderon 53.4% (Bayless, 5.7%)
    Free throws / 100 Field Goal Attempts: Bayless 31.5, Calderon 13.1 (Bayless, + 18.4)
    Percentage of teammates' field goals assisted: Bayless 36.0%, Calderon 42.8% (Calderon, + 6.8%)
    Turnovers as percentage of Individual Possessions: Bayless 15.2%, Calderon 19.0% (Bayless, + 3.8%)
    Percentage of Total Available Rebounds Grabbed: Bayless 7.0%, Calderon, 5.9% (Bayless, + 1.1%)
    Stop%: Bayless 47.1%, Calderon 40.3% (Bayless, + 6.8%)
    Points allowed per 100 possessions faced: Bayless 114.8, Calderon 116.1 (Bayless, + 1.3)
    Net Points / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless +3.8, Calderon -1.8 (Bayless, + 5.6)

    In other words, as a starter Jerryd Bayless has done absolutely everything better than Calderon and in some cases hugely better. The only thing Jose has done better is he assists on more of his teammates' field goals than Jerryd does (but surprisingly turns it over more than Jerryd). That has not translated into team success, as our offensive rating is 105.6 in the games in which Jose starts and 110.2 when Jerryd starts.

  10. #50
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    What does a younger player have to do to "earn" the starters role over Jose Calderone?
    How about beating him in almost every category.
    This is from a post by Maleko.

    Okay, so side-by-side - Jerryd vs. Jose as starters - all stats, here we go:

    Points Produced / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless 20.6, Calderon 14.8 (Bayless, + 5.8)
    % of Team's Possessions Borne Individually while on the floor: Bayless 24.5%, Calderon 19.1% (Bayless, + 5.4%)
    ORat: Bayless 121.9, Calderon 112.5 (Bayless, + 9.4)
    effective FG%: Bayless 53.7%, Calderon 50.5% (Bayless, 3.2%)
    True Shooting %: Bayless 59.1%, Calderon 53.4% (Bayless, 5.7%)
    Free throws / 100 Field Goal Attempts: Bayless 31.5, Calderon 13.1 (Bayless, + 18.4)
    Percentage of teammates' field goals assisted: Bayless 36.0%, Calderon 42.8% (Calderon, + 6.8%)
    Turnovers as percentage of Individual Possessions: Bayless 15.2%, Calderon 19.0% (Bayless, + 3.8%)
    Percentage of Total Available Rebounds Grabbed: Bayless 7.0%, Calderon, 5.9% (Bayless, + 1.1%)
    Stop%: Bayless 47.1%, Calderon 40.3% (Bayless, + 6.8%)
    Points allowed per 100 possessions faced: Bayless 114.8, Calderon 116.1 (Bayless, + 1.3)
    Net Points / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless +3.8, Calderon -1.8 (Bayless, + 5.6)

    In other words, as a starter Jerryd Bayless has done absolutely everything better than Calderon and in some cases hugely better. The only thing Jose has done better is he assists on more of his teammates' field goals than Jerryd does (but surprisingly turns it over more than Jerryd). That has not translated into team success, as our offensive rating is 105.6 in the games in which Jose starts and 110.2 when Jerryd starts.
    Of course, we're talking 14 games versus 68 games. Hardly a fair comparison. It's a lot easier to put up numbers like that over 14 games than over 68. And what was the competition like over the 14 games? A lot of those games were at the end of the season when a lot of bench players start putting up good numbers.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Of course, we're talking 14 games versus 68 games. Hardly a fair comparison. It's a lot easier to put up numbers like that over 14 games than over 68. And what was the competition like over the 14 games? A lot of those games were at the end of the season when a lot of bench players start putting up good numbers.
    Maybe over 82 games Bayless wouldn't be that much better than Calderon...but he would still be better and that makes the team better and gives us more wins...so given this stats from j bean and given the defense he plays (which is not seen in the stats) I would prefer Bayless as my starting pg.And most importantly he has shown constant improvement and he ain't so injury prone like Calderon.

  12. #52
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    What does a younger player have to do to "earn" the starters role over Jose Calderone?
    How about beating him in almost every category.
    This is from a post by Maleko.

    Okay, so side-by-side - Jerryd vs. Jose as starters - all stats, here we go:

    Points Produced / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless 20.6, Calderon 14.8 (Bayless, + 5.8)
    % of Team's Possessions Borne Individually while on the floor: Bayless 24.5%, Calderon 19.1% (Bayless, + 5.4%)
    ORat: Bayless 121.9, Calderon 112.5 (Bayless, + 9.4)
    effective FG%: Bayless 53.7%, Calderon 50.5% (Bayless, 3.2%)
    True Shooting %: Bayless 59.1%, Calderon 53.4% (Bayless, 5.7%)
    Free throws / 100 Field Goal Attempts: Bayless 31.5, Calderon 13.1 (Bayless, + 18.4)
    Percentage of teammates' field goals assisted: Bayless 36.0%, Calderon 42.8% (Calderon, + 6.8%)
    Turnovers as percentage of Individual Possessions: Bayless 15.2%, Calderon 19.0% (Bayless, + 3.8%)
    Percentage of Total Available Rebounds Grabbed: Bayless 7.0%, Calderon, 5.9% (Bayless, + 1.1%)
    Stop%: Bayless 47.1%, Calderon 40.3% (Bayless, + 6.8%)
    Points allowed per 100 possessions faced: Bayless 114.8, Calderon 116.1 (Bayless, + 1.3)
    Net Points / Pace Adjusted 36 minutes: Bayless +3.8, Calderon -1.8 (Bayless, + 5.6)

    In other words, as a starter Jerryd Bayless has done absolutely everything better than Calderon and in some cases hugely better. The only thing Jose has done better is he assists on more of his teammates' field goals than Jerryd does (but surprisingly turns it over more than Jerryd). That has not translated into team success, as our offensive rating is 105.6 in the games in which Jose starts and 110.2 when Jerryd starts.
    Great job.Thank you for showing black on white why and how better Bayless was.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Great job.Thank you for showing black on white why and how better Bayless was.
    Except that it is not black and white, the sample size is too small and the end of season games and rosters play a role. Lets not forget the the huge 2 wins Bayless led the team to down the stretch.

    Will Bayless be given the starting PG spot, NO Will Bayless be given the opportunity to earn the starting PG spot in training camp, yes.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    I think it he will be starting next season unless we sign someone like Felton.No rookie or Calderon should start ahead of him..if that happens no wonder our team sucks...with such decisions based not on performance but on...salary or just affection. I believe if given the opportunity to prove he should be starter he will.

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    Jerryd Bayless is going to explode in training camp knowing that if he does well he'll earn the starting job.

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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    Jerryd Bayless is going to explode in training camp knowing that if he does well he'll earn the starting job.
    I truly hope so, but I hope he does better than the explosion that Weems was going to have for this year.

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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Maybe over 82 games Bayless wouldn't be that much better than Calderon...but he would still be better and that makes the team better and gives us more wins...so given this stats from j bean and given the defense he plays (which is not seen in the stats) I would prefer Bayless as my starting pg.And most importantly he has shown constant improvement and he ain't so injury prone like Calderon.
    I really don't think you can say he would be better at all. Look at what Calderon did when he took over for Ford, initially, earning his present contract. My one big beef with Bayless is that he's yet to show a consistent ability to run the team. Yes, he can put up some great stats, but so did Mike James. With the PG position, stats probably mean the least. Calderon knows how to run an offense. Bayless has yet to show that ability. That's number one in my book when judging a PG.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I really don't think you can say he would be better at all. Look at what Calderon did when he took over for Ford, initially, earning his present contract. My one big beef with Bayless is that he's yet to show a consistent ability to run the team. Yes, he can put up some great stats, but so did Mike James. With the PG position, stats probably mean the least. Calderon knows how to run an offense. Bayless has yet to show that ability. That's number one in my book when judging a PG.
    Sounds like we better get #1 and draft Irving then trade Bargnani to SAC for their pick to get Kanter.... actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. Bring on Tuesday.

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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    I truly hope so, but I hope he does better than the explosion that Weems was going to have for this year.
    i never bought into that. Weems is a bench player, and he's been playing the wrong position this whole season because of our lack of SF's.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Sounds like we better get #1 and draft Irving then trade Bargnani to SAC for their pick to get Kanter.... actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. Bring on Tuesday.
    that would be a genius move. If BC gets resigned and pulls that off that would be huge for us.

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