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Are Kemba Walker and Jerryd Bayless redundant?

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  • #31
    It's not about what player is better, Walker or Bayless. It's about who will turn out to be the best out of the choices the Raptors have when they select. If you want my opinion on Walker's game it's all over the draft thread and in other places in here. I'm not rehashing and it's not needed for the point I am making.

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    • #32
      ebrian wrote: View Post
      Since we're striving to become a good team, it's clear that Bayless is not the answer in 3 years' time.
      No one has given a good argument yet why Bayless isn't capable of putting up the numbers he did as a starter, which are:

      18ppg on 47% shooting, 6.7 asts, 3.6 rebs and a steal.

      Not only that, but he hasn't given any indication at all that he isn't still improving.

      How is it "clear" that Bayless isn't a good - if not excellent - solution at the point?

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      • #33
        jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
        No one has given a good argument yet why Bayless isn't capable of putting up the numbers he did as a starter, which are:

        18ppg on 47% shooting, 6.7 asts, 3.6 rebs and a steal.

        Not only that, but he hasn't given any indication at all that he isn't still improving.

        How is it "clear" that Bayless isn't a good - if not excellent - solution at the point?
        What's your reason for why you're confident he can keep it up? It's an eight game window. Did you get the honor of seeing Mike James close out the 05/06 season in Toronto? How did those numbers work out for the team and how did Mike James look the following season?

        I think it's wrong to write off the possibility that he becomes excellent but I also think it's equally wrong to pencil him in as excellent after eight games... I'm happy sitting on the fence until I see more.

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        • #34
          Apollo wrote: View Post
          So you're suggesting they should let eight games influence the draft to the point where they're bypassing their draft board and not taking the best player available?

          It was eight games. He could have been on a hot streak. The guy was streaky all year as evident by the frequent generation of "trade Bayless" and "Bayless should be starting" threads. I have no doubt he's going to improve but I am not sold on eight games. An eight game window can make anybody look good if you catch them at the right time.
          It wasn't eight games. Bayless started 14 games. When he wasn't starting, it's already been said by the coaching staff that he was trying to adapt his game to play as more of a pass-first point guard. They said when he started, he was much more confident to just relax and play the game the way it came naturally for him.

          I understand the BPA argument. But that doesn't mean you're married to the pick no matter what. My argument is that Bayless doesn't change the fact that you draft BPA, but if turns out to be Walker isn't there more to be gained for the team by looking to trade Walker, trade the pick itself, or trade down?

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          • #35
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            What's your reason for why you're confident he can keep it up?
            See my post above, where I wrote:

            Jerryd Bayless has improved in nearly every statistical category that counts each year he's been in the league, including scoring, rebounding, assists, FG%, 3PFG% and steals. By the end of this year he improved significantly. It's one thing to argue that end of year improvements don't mean anything, which is for another discussion. But place the end of year improvements he showed alongside his sustained year-by-year progression, and you're left with a player who has done nothing but get better with every game he's played.

            All signs - from improving numbers, improving confidence and improving experience - indicate that it is in fact likely that he will continue the success he achieved as a starter. Doing so would only continue the trend he's already established.

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            • #36
              jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
              It wasn't eight games. Bayless started 14 games. When he wasn't starting, it's already been said by the coaching staff that he was trying to adapt his game to play as more of a pass-first point guard. They said when he started, he was much more confident to just relax and play the game the way it came naturally for him.

              I understand the BPA argument. But that doesn't mean you're married to the pick no matter what. My argument is that Bayless doesn't change the fact that you draft BPA, but if turns out to be Walker isn't there more to be gained for the team by looking to trade Walker, trade the pick itself, or trade down?
              Putting up great numbers in a handful of games is not the same thing as being a good player. Darren Collison put up fantastic numbers on a bad New Orleans team but they couldn't win with him. He gets traded to Indiana and he's suddenly not nearly as good. While I think Bayless has shown enough to warrant keeping him, I'm certainly not willing to pass up a player simply because they play the same position. At this point, I see Bayless as a decent backup who MIGHT one day end up being a decent starter. At this point, however, he'd be hard pressed to get minutes on a good team, so I make absolutely no draft decisions based on him being on my team.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • #37
                jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
                if turns out to be Walker isn't there more to be gained for the team by looking to trade Walker, trade the pick itself, or trade down?
                Last time the Raptors had a high pick in a weak draft it was 2006. Colangelo tried trading down there but no one was offering anything worthy of the pick. If he had traded down he would have been criticized for getting fleeced so instead he elected to make sure he got the guy he wanted and took the heat that comes with drafting a project high. That one worked out relatively well when you step back and look at the mine field that was the 2006 draft.

                Calderon is nearly done in Toronto. They're going to need two good PG's and so even if they draft Walker and keep him that's better than a scenario of not taking him if he's the best option or trading him/the pick away while giving another team a discount in the process.

                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                Putting up great numbers in a handful of games is not the same thing as being a good player. Darren Collison put up fantastic numbers on a bad New Orleans team but they couldn't win with him. He gets traded to Indiana and he's suddenly not nearly as good. While I think Bayless has shown enough to warrant keeping him, I'm certainly not willing to pass up a player simply because they play the same position. At this point, I see Bayless as a decent backup who MIGHT one day end up being a decent starter. At this point, however, he'd be hard pressed to get minutes on a good team, so I make absolutely no draft decisions based on him being on my team.
                Collison is an excellent example. I agree with all that post. Good points all around.

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                • #38
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Last time the Raptors had a high pick in a weak draft it was 2006. Colangelo tried trading down there but no one was offering anything worthy of the pick. If he had traded down he would have been criticized for getting fleeced so instead he elected to make sure he got the guy he wanted and took the heat that comes with drafting a project high. That one worked out relatively well when you step back and look at the mine field that was the 2006 draft.
                  This is exactly the problem with all the people who say they want to trade the pick. For what? And if the pick really isn't good enough to worth keeping, then why would anyone else give you something good for it? The Clippers basically gave theirs away. New Jersey didn't have a problem trading theirs away. I've never seen a draft where two lottery teams traded away unprotected picks right before the deadline.

                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Calderon is nearly done in Toronto. They're going to need two good PG's and so even if they draft Walker and keep him that's better than a scenario of not taking him if he's the best option or trading him/the pick away while giving another team a discount in the process.
                  Are you saying that you believe he's going to be traded? I think Calderon is probably someone they should hold onto, unless they get a good deal for him (which is doubtful, with his contract). If they draft a PG, he'd be a great veteran PG to have and
                  if they don't, well they pretty much need him.

                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Collison is an excellent example. I agree with all that post. Good points all around.
                  Thank you. You should really say that more often.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                  Follow me on Twitter.

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                  • #39
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    Are you saying that you believe he's going to be traded? I think Calderon is probably someone they should hold onto, unless they get a good deal for him (which is doubtful, with his contract). If they draft a PG, he'd be a great veteran PG to have and
                    if they don't, well they pretty much need him.
                    If they draft Irving or Walker or Knight for that matter I think Calderon is out of here. If they draft a PG in the top three they're looking at a PG salary of around $17M(Calderon + Bayless + the rookie). That's too much money allocated to one position with no star player at that position next season. It's a waste in my opinion. Not to mention either Bayless or the rookie loses PT to a vet on a team going no where or they're paying a guy $10M to sit on the bench and play mentor while he feels he's still in his prime and should be playing.

                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    Thank you. You should really say that more often.
                    Your welcome. Sure. Just as soon as you write more posts that I agree with.

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                    • #40
                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      If they draft Irving or Walker or Knight for that matter I think Calderon is out of here. If they draft a PG in the top three they're looking at a PG salary of around $17M(Calderon + Bayless + the rookie). That's too much money allocated to one position with no star player at that position next season. It's a waste in my opinion. Not to mention either Bayless or the rookie loses PT to a vet on a team going no where or they're paying a guy $10M to sit on the bench and play mentor while he feels he's still in his prime and should be playing.
                      You have a very good point, there. I'm just not a fan of having two really young and inexperienced PGs.

                      Your welcome. Sure. Just as soon as you write more posts that I agree with.
                      What?! ALL my posts are like that!
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

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                      • #41
                        Okay.

                        If they draft Walker, they can keep Walker if he starts off on the bench. I'll acquiesce on that point. Bayless deserves his chance if its between him and Walker. Of that there's no doubt in my mind. They can battle it out in practice and be extra sharp for the games.

                        If they draft Irving, I actually think Calderon's sticking around and Bayless is the one that's going to be moved. Just a hunch.

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                        • #42
                          Jerryd bayless averaged career highs in:

                          PPG - went from 8.5 to 10
                          SPG - .4 to .6
                          APG - went from 2 to 4
                          3pt% - 30% to 35%
                          FG% - 41 to 43%

                          and he played around 22 mpg. Now imagine if we started him and gave him around 30+ mpg. He'd be averaging almost double the points and Assists. This guy has a huge upside, if he uses his time well in the off season he will be a great starter for us.

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                          • #43
                            Raptors_ wrote: View Post
                            Jerryd bayless averaged career highs in:

                            PPG - went from 8.5 to 10
                            SPG - .4 to .6
                            APG - went from 2 to 4
                            3pt% - 30% to 35%
                            FG% - 41 to 43%

                            and he played around 22 mpg. Now imagine if we started him and gave him around 30+ mpg. He'd be averaging almost double the points and Assists. This guy has a huge upside, if he uses his time well in the off season he will be a great starter for us.
                            My issue with Bayless is not whether he can put up stats, but whether he can run an offense and make those around him better. I haven't seen any of that so far. And those are the two most important things for a PG, in my opinion.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #44
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              My issue with Bayless is not whether he can put up stats, but whether he can run an offense and make those around him better. I haven't seen any of that so far. And those are the two most important things for a PG, in my opinion.
                              We have seen flashes of that this season. I think the reason for that is because he hasn't gotten much of a chance to play. He is actually a good passer he just needs more Playing time to show case it. But he still needs to work on some things this off season

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                              • #45
                                jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
                                Okay.

                                If they draft Walker, they can keep Walker if he starts off on the bench. I'll acquiesce on that point. Bayless deserves his chance if its between him and Walker. Of that there's no doubt in my mind. They can battle it out in practice and be extra sharp for the games.

                                If they draft Irving, I actually think Calderon's sticking around and Bayless is the one that's going to be moved. Just a hunch.
                                I believe Bayless needs to earn the starting gig and what he did this year did not accomplish that. What kind of message does it send if Bayless were to be handed it just because he played here last season? If they draft a PG there should be a battle for it. If they don't draft a PG there still should be a battle for it.

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