Calderon mentions Raps in same breath as OKC

[Tim W.]

I would have to agree with Huskies2raps. I have nothing against euro players, but I think we should pass on Kanter. I have watched a lot of tape on this guy and he doesn't have the height or the athleticism to be a good NBA centre. He plays below the rim, and he prefers to be a PF. I think we have one of those already.

Yes he does have a strong build and a nice shooting touch, but I don't see it transferring to the big leagues.

Lastly, if history is proof, there isn't a long list of european Centres that are all-stars, or franchise players. Divac, Smits, Zeke, Sabonis? There are good players eg. Okur, Rasho, Pryzbilla, but lack greatness


I think if we get the #3 we try and trade down for two picks (Utah, Charlotte, or Washington). I think we should go for Knight and Leonard or Walker and Leonard. I'm not the biggest Kemba fan, but I think he is worth taking a chance on. Kanter is as much of a wild card as Kemba is in my mind.

As joey_hesketh, he's got just as much height as several very good NBA centers, and his athleticism, while not great, is more than adequate, especially for the center position. In fact, I'd say he's similar in athleticism to guys like Brook Lopez and Andrew Bogut.

As for him preferring to play PF, firstly, he never said that. What he said in the interview is that he wants to improve his skills so he can play PF, TOO. Secondly, who cares if he does want to play PF. The players don't pick the position they play. The coach does and it's my guess that most coaches would put him at center. And really, what is the difference between the two positions? Davis is more of a shotblocker, anyway, so the Raptors need a more positional defender at center, and that's Kanter.

As for your logic about few European centers not becoming All-Stars, I can't tell you how flawed it is. The first flaw is that the number of European centers that have come into the league is much, much smaller than American centers, so obviously you're going to have fewer All-Stars. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that the percentage of European All-Stars is around the same percentage, or possibly more, as American centers.

Besides, according to your logic, Houston shouldn't have selected Hakeem #1 because there had never been an All Star African center. And San Antonio shouldn't have selected Tim Duncan because no player from the VIrgin Islands had ever been successful. Dallas should have kept RObert Trayor instead of trading him for that German guy because no Garman had ever been a successful NBA player. Really, what were those teams thinking!

[Quixotic]

I would have to agree with Huskies2raps. I have nothing against euro players, but I think we should pass on Kanter. I have watched a lot of tape on this guy and he doesn't have the height or the athleticism to be a good NBA centre. He plays below the rim, and he prefers to be a PF. I think we have one of those already.

Yes he does have a strong build and a nice shooting touch, but I don't see it transferring to the big leagues.

Lastly, if history is proof, there isn't a long list of european Centres that are all-stars, or franchise players. Divac, Smits, Zeke, Sabonis? There are good players eg. Okur, Rasho, Pryzbilla, but lack greatness


I think if we get the #3 we try and trade down for two picks (Utah, Charlotte, or Washington). I think we should go for Knight and Leonard or Walker and Leonard. I'm not the biggest Kemba fan, but I think he is worth taking a chance on. Kanter is as much of a wild card as Kemba is in my mind.

Just to add to what Tim W said, which I 100% agree with, did you mean "there isn't a long list of Caucasian centers that are all-stars or franchise players"? Because otherwise, I don't know why Pryzbilla is on that list. Monticello is a city in Minnesota, and not to be confused with Montenegro in Europe. Born in the US, raised in the US, but still too "European" for you? What gives.

[Quixotic]

Agreed on Tuesday.

All your points and any counter arguments I could make are all already discussed in this thread(knees, position).

As for high dose of Euro players - seriously? I think Raptors fans have had a high dose of players who are not good to great. Forget where they are from, the stereotype is old and idiotic. There aren't soft American players? THere aren't rugged Euro players?

I do not think Irving/Williams is as straight forward as once thought.

I think anyone who uses that stereotype completely loses any and all credibility. Thank god they're not GM. The phenomenon these people are referring to is BC's openness to seeking talent wherever talent may be (remind anyone of R.C. Buford over in San Antonio?), but all they seem to be able to focus on is that, omgosh, we're accepting people from Europe!

Never mind that Nesterovic, Garbajosa and Delfino (to a lesser extent) were good acquisitions for the team.

Never mind that Stojakovic was acquired simply for his expiring contract and to make numbers work, or that Dallas paid us to carry Ajinca's salary for the rest of the season.

Never mind that Anthony Parker and Willie Solomon are as European as Josh Childress and Brandon Jennings (though I admit, longer exposure does increase your risk of turning European).

Never mind that T.J. Ford, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion, Marcus Banks, Kris Humphries, John Salmons, Fred Jones, Juan Dixon, Luke Jackson, Jamario Moon, Jason Kapono, Maceo Baston, Hassan Adams, Jake Voshkul, Patrick O'Bryant, Quincy Douby, Reggie Evans, Jarrett Jack, Amir Johnson, Sonny Weems, Joey Dorsey, Julian Wright, Jerryd Bayless, James Johnson and Matt Barnes aren't European.

Compare the length of the above list (which doesn't even include the Americans we drafted) to the list of Europeans. Belinelli, Mensah-Bonsu, Kleiza and Andersen are the only other Europeans we've gone after, and that's not really all true. Andersen is Australian, but he's white and played in the Euroleague so I guess it's the same thing, and it seems a bit wrong to hold Kleiza, who played high school and college ball in the U.S., at fault for being born elsewhere or playing for a non-American national team. (Also, according to some guy on here a long time ago and whose name I forget, Tony Parker doesn't count as European because he's black or plays like he's black, so that should probably apply to Mensah-Bonsu as well.)

Apologies for the sarcasm, but the stupidity really gets to me. I don't understand why people can't just say, "no more finesse players!" That would probably more accurately encapsulate what they really don't want. Looking at all the players I named above, the only thing I see a lot of are not very good players, and most of them aren't even European, so the only thing that's been proven is that building a team around bad players won't make a winner. Perhaps instead of worrying about more "Europeans", we should worry about getting more mediocre or bad players. That's something we could probably all drink to.

[Maleko]

I think anyone who uses that stereotype completely loses any and all credibility. Thank god they're not GM. The phenomenon these people are referring to is BC's openness to seeking talent wherever talent may be (remind anyone of R.C. Buford over in San Antonio?), but all they seem to be able to focus on is that, omgosh, we're accepting people from Europe!

Never mind that Nesterovic, Garbajosa and Delfino (to a lesser extent) were good acquisitions for the team.

Never mind that Stojakovic was acquired simply for his expiring contract and to make numbers work, or that Dallas paid us to carry Ajinca's salary for the rest of the season.

Never mind that Anthony Parker and Willie Solomon are as European as Josh Childress and Brandon Jennings (though I admit, longer exposure does increase your risk of turning European).

Never mind that T.J. Ford, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion, Marcus Banks, Kris Humphries, John Salmons, Fred Jones, Juan Dixon, Luke Jackson, Jamario Moon, Jason Kapono, Maceo Baston, Hassan Adams, Jake Voshkul, Patrick O'Bryant, Quincy Douby, Reggie Evans, Jarrett Jack, Amir Johnson, Sonny Weems, Joey Dorsey, Julian Wright, Jerryd Bayless, James Johnson and Matt Barnes aren't European.

Compare the length of the above list (which doesn't even include the Americans we drafted) to the list of Europeans. Belinelli, Mensah-Bonsu, Kleiza and Andersen are the only other Europeans we've gone after, and that's not really all true. Andersen is Australian, but he's white and played in the Euroleague so I guess it's the same thing, and it seems a bit wrong to hold Kleiza, who played high school and college ball in the U.S., at fault for being born elsewhere or playing for a non-American national team. (Also, according to some guy on here a long time ago and whose name I forget, Tony Parker doesn't count as European because he's black or plays like he's black, so that should probably apply to Mensah-Bonsu as well.)

Apologies for the sarcasm, but the stupidity really gets to me. I don't understand why people can't just say, "no more finesse players!" That would probably more accurately encapsulate what they really don't want. Looking at all the players I named above, the only thing I see a lot of are not very good players, and most of them aren't even European, so the only thing that's been proven is that building a team around bad players won't make a winner. Perhaps instead of worrying about more "Europeans", we should worry about getting more mediocre or bad players. That's something we could probably all drink to.

What he said.

[Tim W.]

Just to add to what Tim W said, which I 100% agree with, did you mean "there isn't a long list of Caucasian centers that are all-stars or franchise players"? Because otherwise, I don't know why Pryzbilla is on that list. Monticello is a city in Minnesota, and not to be confused with Montenegro in Europe. Born in the US, raised in the US, but still too "European" for you? What gives.

Too funny. I missed Pryzbilla there. He might be quite surprised to discover that he was European.

[Quixotic]

Too funny. I missed Pryzbilla there. He might be quite surprised to discover that he was European.

His fault really for not having a less European name like Williams, Smith or Jones. Oh wait...

[planetmars]

I don't know how this post went from the Raps being like OKC to Kanter being European so he will suck, but anyways...

The hardest position to fill in an NBA roster is a center. If you look at every NBA roster, most rosters' primary center was the one they drafted. Getting one in FA is a pipe dream, and getting one in a trade would be difficult as the other team would be losing a tangible piece. Also if you look at the mock draft for 2012, the highest rated Center is Lucas Nogueira at 19! And he's also non-American.

So if the Raptors need a center, and if its going to be difficult/impossible to get one in FA or through a trade, then lining up Kanter in this year's draft is probably the way to go. The other two center prospects in the first round namely Jonas Valanciunas and Bismack Biyombo are also non-American. So are we supposed to wait until 2013 to get our American center?

As for non American centers, the following have all been named on the All NBA team in the past, and none of these guys were born American: Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dirk Nowitzki, Dikembe Mutombo, Pau Gasol and Andrew Bogut

A few of these guys will be/are HOFers.

[Quixotic]

The hardest position to fill in an NBA roster is a center. If you look at every NBA roster, most rosters' primary center was the one they drafted. Getting one in FA is a pipe dream, and getting one in a trade would be difficult as the other team would be losing a tangible piece. Also if you look at the mock draft for 2012, the highest rated Center is Lucas Nogueira at 19! And he's also non-American.

Very astute observation. The only decent center I remember being traded in the past while (who isn't a bad contract or have age/injury issues) is Gortat, and he's hardly great. So yes, if we want a good franchise center, we really are going to need to draft him ourselves. Teams don't just let good centers go, and in the off-chance they do, we're not exactly in any unique position to acquire them over all the other teams.

[Matt52]

The OKC bandwagon was fairly empty in the early days.

The Sonics lost 62 games during Durant’s rookie season and much of the criticism was aimed his way. He was a chucker and little else. He didn’t defend. Durant heard it all. After he failed to bench press 185 pounds at the predraft camp, people wondered whether he’d ever grow strong enough to become a star. Even worse: They questioned whether he’d be a winner.

Said Durant: “People were saying we were going to be the worst team ever.”

Many of the moves Presti made during that first season to improve the franchise’s future came at a cost to present success. With a new ownership group already eyeing a move to Oklahoma City, Sonics fans viewed the rebuilding process with a far more skeptical opinion: Tank the season, erode support, bolt town.

Funny how hindsight changes so many opinions.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl..._finals_051511

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

His fault really for not having a less European name like Williams, Smith or Jones. Oh wait...

aaawww, i think you have found a buddy here Tim W. Q's been wagging his tail on everything you say and vice versa, great minds think alike! haha. You guys seem to have this...connection.

Like Multi and dunkindero, hehehe. What happened to Multi anyways? And Buddha?

Im kinda gettin tired of this OKC comparison. IMO, there's no formula for success, otherwise, all 30 teams would be following it and we'd have 30 contenders and 30 trophy winners. There is planning, but it eventually boils down to luck in the draft and perfect timing. Of course its always good to follow a plan, but sometimes when you deviate from a plan is when you achieve greatness.

[Quixotic]

aaawww, i think you have found a buddy here Tim W. Q's been wagging his tail on everything you say and vice versa, great minds think alike! haha. You guys seem to have this...connection.

Like Multi and dunkindero, hehehe. What happened to Multi anyways? And Buddha?

Im kinda gettin tired of this OKC comparison. IMO, there's no formula for success, otherwise, all 30 teams would be following it and we'd have 30 contenders and 30 trophy winners. There is planning, but it eventually boils down to luck in the draft and perfect timing. Of course its always good to follow a plan, but sometimes when you deviate from a plan is when you achieve greatness.

It's even better when you consider that Tim W and I have differed in our opinions on Bargnani, yet we manage to be reasonable with each other. I find his posts to be quite on point most of the time.

You're right that we shouldn't be compared to OkC in the sense that we should choose to luck out in the draft with Durant/Westbrook-level talents, but a lot of you are missing the main point in comparing us to either OkC or Chicago. The key to both those teams is they collected good young talent over the span of a few years. That last bit is the most important. It's what gave Chicago the cap room to add several free agents right before their run (OkC is similar, but they're more likely using the cap flexibility to keep their stars). For a team that cannot attract top-level talent for mid-level salaries, it becomes even more important to follow a financially responsible plan like Chicago/OkC's.

Also your "no formula for success" point is kind of moot since it would only apply if OkC had actually won something. The comparison being made isn't on a championship-level; we're only saying that the OkC/Chicago way is a good way to get back into contention. Your "otherwise, all 30 teams would be following it and we'd have 30 contenders" is also moot because the fact is you have a lot of teams that aren't following much of anything (Clippers, Warriors, Minnesota, Pistons, etc.), or have just started their rebuild (Wizards, Nets, Cavs, Raptors, etc.). Just because they're not following fiscal responsibility doesn't mean it's not a good method. If anything, it only proves that whatever they're following ISN'T working.

So yes, don't count on luck in the draft, but we can all take a lesson here on patience, on building a team from ground up and having our core on the same biological schedule. The only realistic deviations mentioned on this forum (i.e. trade for Granger, etc.) won't achieve greatness -- just mediocrity.