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Thread: Are Kemba Walker and Jerryd Bayless redundant?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Default Are Kemba Walker and Jerryd Bayless redundant?


    Draftexpress has us picking Kemba Walker 3rd overall. Are him and JB redundant? If so should we pass on him even if his the best available talent?
    @Chr1st1anL

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Bayless is nowhere near a good enough player that you pass on the best player available. I am not saying I would take Kemba, I am questioning your logic. BAyless put together a string of games at the end of a crappy season, on a bad team, going against teams resting starters. He did show some promise, but there are still many, many, many questions about his future ability to run a team full time at a high level.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Draftexpress has us picking Kemba Walker 3rd overall. Are him and JB redundant? If so should we pass on him even if his the best available talent?
    This is an interesting question that no one has asked already. My answer would be that every good team needs two good PGs. I'm not sure Bayless is good enough to start. I think Walker has more upside.

    I agree with WJF when he says Bayless showed some promise at the end of the season in a string of games but he was up and down all year for the most part. You can't enter a game with confidence when you don't know if your PG is going to show up or not.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Definitely they are. Their games are extremely similar: they get their points and their assists through relentlessly attacking the hoop. Both are very quick, scoring-oriented players. They are both very tough and spend good chunks of time at the off-guard. Both are also extremely competitive, which would make it difficult for them to play back-up to one another. They are both pretty good rebounders for their position.

    Their biggest divergence: size and clutch. Bayless has the first, Walker has the second. I think before anyone can really make up their minds about Walker, they have to know how he measures at the combine (I'm talking height). If he's 6', then all questions about his lack of height should be thrown out. It's plenty tall enough given his skill and toughness. If however he's closer to 5'10", then it starts to be a real concern. I'm not sure he's getting open the way he did at UCONN against bigger NBA guards, and scoring at the rim the way he did at UCONN against much bigger NBA centers and forwards, if he is indeed that short. Too many of his shots were closely-contested fadeaways for my liking. Yes they went in, but that's why we're even talking about him. If he misses those shots or if they're blocked/tipped, forget about it.

    For Bayless, not much new to say really. I liked what I saw when he was allowed to play his game (as opposed to trying to play more as a "pure" PG like he did for the mid-season off the bench. That he did though try to do so is encouraging to me as it shows his willingness to learn and adapt. Lots of players refuse to change). His assist numbers are actually pretty good, especially given the lack of shooters Toronto had last season (a SF who can hit the spot up 3 would have without question upped his assist total, as it would any PG's). Regardless, as a starter - that is, playing 35 minutes a game - he averaged 6.7 assists, which is good for 14th in the league. Give him that extra wing shooter and he's a candidate for top 10 (the tenth spot is occupied by D.Rose, who gets just one more assist per game than Bayless at 7.7/game). It's his defence that is the biggest concern, and he absolutely has to improve there if he wants to be a legit starter (Opp. PER of 19).

    Given the two, my preference is to stick with Bayless. I like Walker for sure, and no matter where he ends up I'll definitely be paying close attention, but I'm not convinced at all he gives you that much - if any - of an upgrade.

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    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Bayless is nowhere near a good enough player that you pass on the best player available. I am not saying I would take Kemba, I am questioning your logic. BAyless put together a string of games at the end of a crappy season, on a bad team, going against teams resting starters. He did show some promise, but there are still many, many, many questions about his future ability to run a team full time at a high level.
    Thank you. Making a case for Bayless isn't much different than making one for Jarrett Jack, except that Bayless is younger and holds more "promise".

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Thank you. Making a case for Bayless isn't much different than making one for Jarrett Jack, except that Bayless is younger and holds more "promise".
    I somewhat disagree. While their stats may show they are similarly effective, Bayless and Jack are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to attitude, toughness, perseverance and leadership. Bayless plays with fire at all times, and turns it on when things go downhill. Jack checks out when things get tough and visibly sulks.

    And I know you said, "except that Bayless is younger and holds more 'promise,'" but I think that part is worth repeating. Bayless is a good 5 years younger than Jack. That is significantly younger. Bayless at 22 is still developing and has years to go before his prime. Jack at 27 has likely already peaked. Seems to me that's a pretty good argument in favour of sticking with Bayless, if indeed they are at this point comparable.
    Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Thu May 12th, 2011 at 09:36 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    With the 3rd pick? (God, him being projected so high is depressing. All of that tanking for...) Yeah, I'd rather keep Bayless. Shoot, people also say that he's had a small sample size too, but I think that it's bigger than Irving's lol.

    But I'm biased. *points to avatar*

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Byyless put together a string of games at the end of a crappy season, on a bad team, going against teams resting starters. He did show some promise, but there are still many, many, many questions about his future ability to run a team full time at a high level.
    In the last 10 games the Raptors played, games in which Bayless averaged 19 points, 5 assists and 1 steal while shooting 48% from the field and 42% from 3, 6 of those 10 were against playoff teams fighting for a better seed or teams fighting for a playoff spot (Chicago, Orlando, New York, Philadelphia and Milwaukee twice) non of whom rested their starters when they played. I excluded Miami, who did in fact rest their starters.

    You can make the argument that they played bad teams (Jersey, Milwaukee, Cleveland and the Clippers), but, in reality half of the NBA teams are either bad or mediocre, so playing against those teams is par for the course: everyone plays them.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    I somewhat disagree. While their stats may show they are similarly effective, Bayless and Jack are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to attitude, toughness, perseverance and leadership. Bayless plays with fire at all times, and turns it on when things go downhill. Jack checks out when things gets tough and visibly sulks.

    And I know you said, "except that Bayless is younger and holds more 'promise,'" but I think that part is worth repeating. Bayless is a good 5 years younger than Jack. That is significantly younger. Bayless at 22 is still developing and has years to go before his prime. Jack at 27 has likely already peaked. Seems to me that's a pretty good argument in favour of sticking with Bayless, if indeed they are at this point comparable.
    That is fine, except the argument is not between Jack and Bayless, but between Bayless ans another potential young promising PG or upgrade. There seems to be a few fans that are willing to pencil in Bayless as the starter and are willing to pass on potentially better players. I am comfortable with Demar going forward as our 2 guard and with Ed Davis as our 4, other than that I would bump anyone out of the rotation for an upgrade. I do want Bayless to continue to grow and do well, he may very well be our starter next year, but by no means am I passing on Irving, Walker or Knight if they are the best player available at our pick to try and fill another hole. I am not saying we target a PG in the draft, nor to we reach for one either, but it they are BPA we need to take them.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    That is fine, except the argument is not between Jack and Bayless, but between Bayless ans another potential young promising PG or upgrade. There seems to be a few fans that are willing to pencil in Bayless as the starter and are willing to pass on potentially better players. I am comfortable with Demar going forward as our 2 guard and with Ed Davis as our 4, other than that I would bump anyone out of the rotation for an upgrade. I do want Bayless to continue to grow and do well, he may very well be our starter next year, but by no means am I passing on Irving, Walker or Knight if they are the best player available at our pick to try and fill another hole. I am not saying we target a PG in the draft, nor to we reach for one either, but it they are BPA we need to take them.
    You must have realized that I was talking about Jarret Jack because I was obviously responding to the post directly above mine...in fact I even put the quote that first discussed Jack in my post.

    The argument in this thread, as you've pointed out, is whether or not Bayless and Walker are redundant. I've made the case that they are.

    If it came down to Walker being the best player available when it's Toronto's turn to draft, I'd rather the Raps traded down. How's that?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    You take the best player available and if that's Walker then so be it. I wouldn't say they are completely redundant either since Walker is a faster player than Bayless and Bayless is a bigger player than Walker so it's not like they are carbon copies of each other. Plus you can never have too many guys attacking the rim. I don't think we'll pick Walker anyway unless we drop a few spots but I think the two of them might be ok to play together at least at first.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Walker also takes care of the ball far better.

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    Walker is inconsistent in his decision making and has below average passing skills as his turnover for every 2 assists indicates.

    I remember the super draft of 2003 and the hype surrounding TJ Ford how he would overcome his height disadvantage with his speed, smarts and passing skills. Now we have Walker ready to overcome his weaknesses with his speed and scoring.

    Bayless was consistently very good as a starter last year. Only 14 games but he had top five offensive numbers. I haven't heard a good reason why his success as a starter can't continue if given the opportunity.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default I disagree

    His A/T is very good.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    College assist to turnover ratio for last year in college:

    John Wall: 1.625
    Jonny Flynn: 1.97
    Avery Bradley: 1.37
    Derrick Rose: 1.88
    Russell Westbrook: 1.72
    Tyreke Evans: 1.08
    Steph Curry: 1.5
    Deron Williams: 2.46
    Chris Paul: 2.23
    Ty Lawson: 3.46

    Walker (2.06) is ahead of good company and behind good company. No one on that list was as prolific of a scorer as Walker either with the exception of Curry who took 20 more shots in 3 less games and had another 1.5 TO per game.
    Source: Matt52, Raptors Republic Forum

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    These are the weaknesses for Walker that keep coming up everywhere you look. The first two in particular.


    Small for a starting point guard.
    Sometimes makes poor decisions.
    Can lay off his man on defense as he tries to get easy steals.
    Sometimes plays too fast.
    Can look for his own shot before his teammates.
    Often gets his shot blocked when he gets into the lane.

    It's too risky a chance that he doesn't transition well into the NBA game to use up the Raptors' pick on Walker.
    If they did pick Walker who do they move Calderone or Bayless?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think trading down is rather pointless in a draft this weak. I don't think this draft class contains any guys that teams will desperately want.. I'd wager that is true even for the #1 overall pick. The fact that Chad Ford has us taking Derrick Williams #1 overall if we had that pick, and other teams taking Kyrie Irving, shows there is no true clear-cut best player in this draft.

    I don't know if we're asking the right question. Are Kemba and Jerryd redundant.. they have similar skill-sets. One could argue that Bayless is young and therefore has a big ceiling ahead despite being in the league already 3 years. I'd argue that one who's been around that long should have show more than what he's shown thus far. 3 years is a long time, and it's not as if he's been on teams that are shy about playing their young players.

    As a Raptors fan, I'm looking into the future and I see Jerryd Bayless as a backup point guard. I can't see him being a starter unless he bounces around the league and plays for a bad teams for his entire career. Kemba Walker may have similar skill-set, but I want to at least give the kid a chance. He carried his team *deep* into the NCAA tournament. He got better and better. College career-wise, he's improved, rather drastically year after year. They may have similar games, but I think that's where the comparison ends. Leadership, tenacity, hard-working, will-to-win; these are things you can't teach.

    One might call it redundancy, I call it upgrade.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    The question is moot because Walker is not going to be the best player left when the Raptors pick. I willl be SHOCKED if we take Walker at 3.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    The question is moot because Walker is not going to be the best player left when the Raptors pick. I willl be SHOCKED if we take Walker at 3.
    Who knows where they will draft? It's entirely possible the Raps draft at 6, in which case it's likely Walker will already be off the board.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Bayless is the better player right now.I would start him next year.It doesn't matter who we draft..even if it's Irving or Walker..I'll start Bayless because the way he played at the end of this season earned him the starting job for next season.Unless he shows up at training camp different from what we saw..I'd give him the chance to prove himself.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    The thing is I don't really care who is the better player right now. If we were a piece away from being a playoff team, then sure, I'd stick with Bayless and see how it goes. But we're about 5 pieces away, plus a coach and a GM. I'd rather worry about who will be a better player 3 years from now, and I think there's no question Walker will be a better player.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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