NBA's Most Harmful Players

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

This kinda reminds me of the Razzies. I found it interesting that people took offense to this list, or said it was dumb. Bad teams have bad players, and is it really that surprising the Bargnani tops the list, when we lost 60 games?

I dont think the list is dumb, but to show a list highlighting the worst players in the league that are playing in the worst teams is pretty much a no-brainer. Its like somebody shouting fire when the whole neighborhood is already standing outside a burning house. State the obvious, so to speak.

My issue with detractors always putting Bargnani under the bus is that the Raps didnt lose 60 games just because of Bargnani, there were 14 other guys on that team, for me, the whole team lost 60 games. Yes, Bargnani was a big part, and yes, the offense ran through him but 4 other guys were usually playing alongside him who could have, and others actually did, make a difference. Will putting Bargnani out of the equation help? Oh yes, most definitely, no doubt about it. But Im really not sure putting a better player than Bargnani alongside the other four who Bargnani frequently played with will make this instantly a winning team. It will make a difference, but what im getting at is there are other changes to be made to make this team a winner, along with getting rid of Bargnani.

[Tim W.]

I dont think the list is dumb, but to show a list highlighting the worst players in the league that are playing in the worst teams is pretty much a no-brainer. Its like somebody shouting fire when the whole neighborhood is already standing outside a burning house. State the obvious, so to speak.

My issue with detractors always putting Bargnani under the bus is that the Raps didnt lose 60 games just because of Bargnani, there were 14 other guys on that team, for me, the whole team lost 60 games. Yes, Bargnani was a big part, and yes, the offense ran through him but 4 other guys were usually playing alongside him who could have, and others actually did, make a difference. Will putting Bargnani out of the equation help? Oh yes, most definitely, no doubt about it. But Im really not sure putting a better player than Bargnani alongside the other four who Bargnani frequently played with will make this instantly a winning team. It will make a difference, but what im getting at is there are other changes to be made to make this team a winner, along with getting rid of Bargnani.

No one thinks simply replacing Bargnani with a better player is going to make the team win. But if he's part of the problem, then it's obvious what needs to happen.

He's not the reason created the thread, though. As you said, it's stating the obvious. But a lot of people on this board really like Flynn, and there's a lot of evidence to support the argument that he doesn't help you team. Is it because he's on Minnesota? That's the question. Just playing a lot of minutes on a bad team doesn't automatically get you on the list. Kevin Love isn't on it. Neither are any other Raptor starter.

If Flynn were in a different system (not trying to run the triangle offense) help? Maybe, but that shouldn't effect his defense, which is extremely poor.

[Matt52]

No one thinks simply replacing Bargnani with a better player is going to make the team win. But if he's part of the problem, then it's obvious what needs to happen.

He's not the reason created the thread, though. As you said, it's stating the obvious. But a lot of people on this board really like Flynn, and there's a lot of evidence to support the argument that he doesn't help you team. Is it because he's on Minnesota? That's the question. Just playing a lot of minutes on a bad team doesn't automatically get you on the list. Kevin Love isn't on it. Neither are any other Raptor starter.

If Flynn were in a different system (not trying to run the triangle offense) help? Maybe, but that shouldn't effect his defense, which is extremely poor.

How much has to do with his hip which caused him to miss training last summer, training camp in the fall, and to never really be in game shape this season? Also what does it do to a second year's confidence to go from starting 81 of 81 games played to coming back from an injury off the bench and only starting 8 of 53 games?

Flynn intrigues me. His college stats were very impressive are his intangibles like character (or so it has been reported) and leadership are supposedly stellar.

Also, he is only just turned 22.

[Tim W.]

How much has to do with his hip which caused him to miss training last summer, training camp in the fall, and to never really be in game shape this season? Also what does it do to a second year's confidence to go from starting 81 of 81 games played to coming back from an injury off the bench and only starting 8 of 53 games?

Flynn intrigues me. His college stats were very impressive are his intangibles like character (or so it has been reported) and leadership are supposedly stellar.

Also, he is only just turned 22.

You very well could be right. A lot of people really liked him coming out of college.

[GarbageTime]

I dont think the list is dumb, but to show a list highlighting the worst players in the league that are playing in the worst teams is pretty much a no-brainer. Its like somebody shouting fire when the whole neighborhood is already standing outside a burning house. State the obvious, so to speak.

My issue with detractors always putting Bargnani under the bus is that the Raps didnt lose 60 games just because of Bargnani, there were 14 other guys on that team, for me, the whole team lost 60 games. Yes, Bargnani was a big part, and yes, the offense ran through him but 4 other guys were usually playing alongside him who could have, and others actually did, make a difference. Will putting Bargnani out of the equation help? Oh yes, most definitely, no doubt about it. But Im really not sure putting a better player than Bargnani alongside the other four who Bargnani frequently played with will make this instantly a winning team. It will make a difference, but what im getting at is there are other changes to be made to make this team a winner, along with getting rid of Bargnani.

This kind of stuff bothers me.

No one says this is a winning team without Bargnani or a winning team by substituting Bargnani for a better player. Do people think it would be a better team without him? Probably, but not a winning team. And no one blames Bargnani for all 60 loses.

No one in this thread put Bargnani under the bus. I think almost everyone would agree it takes more than just moving Bargnani to improve this team. The Bargnani boys (not yourself but in general) have twisted what the "haters" have said to the point where the more neutral readers have interpretted us to mean that he is the reason for everything. Thats simply not true.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

may bad, i think ive turned this into another Bargnani thread. My apologies.

Im not a fan of Flynn either, i havent seen him play that much, but im going with the fact that he's not excelling with a team like Minnesota when he's already given a bit of opportunity to show what he can do. Not sure if because of injuries, but ive heard he's quite healthy now and still not producing starter stats, which he was initially pegged to be.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

No one thinks simply replacing Bargnani with a better player is going to make the team win. But if he's part of the problem, then it's obvious what needs to happen.

He's not the reason created the thread, though. As you said, it's stating the obvious. But a lot of people on this board really like Flynn, and there's a lot of evidence to support the argument that he doesn't help you team. Is it because he's on Minnesota? That's the question. Just playing a lot of minutes on a bad team doesn't automatically get you on the list. Kevin Love isn't on it. Neither are any other Raptor starter.

If Flynn were in a different system (not trying to run the triangle offense) help? Maybe, but that shouldn't effect his defense, which is extremely poor.

Actually, ive read a couple of posts here that actually blamed bargnani for the 22 win season, but its kinda tedious to dig the forums then cut and paste them one by one. i know you and garbage time didnt say it, but other posters did. and others might not directly say it, but its fairly obvious that they are insinuating it. if somebody says constantly that ed, amir, dd, bayless, JJ, reggie, jose played outstanding and not include bargnani, then pretty much youre drawing a conclusion that bargnani being the focal point of the team this year was the reason it was a wash or maybe im the only one who came to this conclusion....

anyways, again, my bad with the bargnani tirade. closed!

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

This kind of stuff bothers me.

No one says this is a winning team without Bargnani or a winning team by substituting Bargnani for a better player. Do people think it would be a better team without him? Probably, but not a winning team. And no one blames Bargnani for all 60 loses.

No one in this thread put Bargnani under the bus. I think almost everyone would agree it takes more than just moving Bargnani to improve this team. The Bargnani boys (not yourself but in general) have twisted what the "haters" have said to the point where the more neutral readers have interpretted us to mean that he is the reason for everything. Thats simply not true.

I wasnt gonna go into the Bargnani discussion again, but it bothers me that it bothers you.

like i said in my response to tim, some have said it and some have insinuated it, not you and tim but others. Id rather you not say "no one" because there are a million posts here and i dont think youve read all of them so to assume "no one" is a bit presumptuous.

the other thing that "bothers" me is the constant labeling, bargnani boys, bargnani haters, etc etc. if you dont want to be labeled as haters then dont label others as boys. just because we defended bargnani in some aspects that instantly makes us "bargnani boys". bargnani is still a raptor so i try to find some solace with him still with the team. again, as ive always said, dont get me wrong, id prefer to have bargnani out of the rotation but as it stands, he's still a raptor so i guess use him in whatever way possible that he can contribute.

[Hugmenot]

How much has to do with his hip which caused him to miss training last summer, training camp in the fall, and to never really be in game shape this season? Also what does it do to a second year's confidence to go from starting 81 of 81 games played to coming back from an injury off the bench and only starting 8 of 53 games?

Flynn took a much higher percentage of jump shots in his second year and drew fouls at a much lower rate.

Was his role changed so drastically? I have no clue as I did not watched any basketball games from 2002-03 to 2009-10. Was he not entirely recovered from the hip injury? Is it a permanent result of the injury?

[Tim W.]

Actually, ive read a couple of posts here that actually blamed bargnani for the 22 win season, but its kinda tedious to dig the forums then cut and paste them one by one. i know you and garbage time didnt say it, but other posters did. and others might not directly say it, but its fairly obvious that they are insinuating it. if somebody says constantly that ed, amir, dd, bayless, JJ, reggie, jose played outstanding and not include bargnani, then pretty much youre drawing a conclusion that bargnani being the focal point of the team this year was the reason it was a wash or maybe im the only one who came to this conclusion....

anyways, again, my bad with the bargnani tirade. closed!

The posters that blamed the 22 win season on Bargnani are just as "deluded" as the posters who think he's an All-Star. Don't read the extremist point of view and assume it's the norm.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

The posters that blamed the 22 win season on Bargnani are just as "deluded" as the posters who think he's an All-Star. Don't read the extremist point of view and assume it's the norm.

Good point Tim. I wasnt assuming that it was the norm, i just wanted to point out that some people did say it.

[Matt52]

Flynn took a much higher percentage of jump shots in his second year and drew fouls at a much lower rate.

Was his role changed so drastically? I have no clue as I did not watched any basketball games from 2002-03 to 2009-10. Was he not entirely recovered from the hip injury? Is it a permanent result of the injury?

I'm not sure of the answer to your questions or my own. That is where it is the job of the GM and medical staff to determine his ability.

Personally, I think it is a very low risk and high reward situation.

[Quixotic]

I came across this article about the NBA's most harmful players.. Guess who's #1?

Interestingly, Johnny Flynn is 6th. Will playing in a different system help? Is this the exact same excuse people use for Bargnani?

There aren't too many surprises on the list. Guys I've never liked, like Villanueva and Aaron Brooks.

Oh, and Minnesota has 3 of the top 6, including 2 and 3. Is it any wonder they finished with the worst record?

I'm a little late to the discussion, sorry, but it took a while to digest everything the article's author was doing.

First, I'd like to point out that most "combination stats" (for lack of a better name) should be avoided. All they really do is total up a bunch of stats with an arbitrary rating system picked by the stat's creator, then the creator holds it out as declaring some truth not seen before. I've been verbal against the Wins Produced stat over at Wages of Wins, and I have to be verbal against this "Value" stat as well.

The Win Score "stat" is actually pretty harmless on its own, as it's not normalized against anything. It is, simply put, just an arbitrary tally of individual stats. The problem starts, however, when Mr. Courtside Analyst ("CA" for short henceforth) compares it to the opposing Win Score. Just to illustrate why this comparison doesn't prove anything really, let's shift Bargnani's position to shooting guard. Had Bargnani actually played SG, needless to say he probably would have been a bigger defensive liability this past season, being useless both on help defense and on man defense, requiring the rest of the team to cover for him. However, even if the average opposing SG played exactly like Kobe (9.23 WS) over the course of a season, Bargnani's oppWS would still unlikely be anywhere close to the 14.34 opposing centers post against him, simply because they wouldn't rebound like bigs. In short, this guy's method would show Bargnani to be less of a problem at SG, when he'd actually be even worse. This is the exact same conclusion that the normalized Wins Produced stat erroneously makes as well, btw.

So even though WS - oppWS means very little, CA takes that difference, divides it by two, converts it into a Win% (let's assume that this part is statistically sound), and applies it to each player's share of games to come up with wins and losses contributed to. CA then takes the difference again (between wins and losses), divides that by two, and adds the result to wins contributed to. Thus, "Value" is basically 0.5 (W - L) + W, or:

1.5W - 0.5L

Why not 2W - 1L? Why not 1W - 1L? Why not W^2 - L^2? I know CA provides some clumsy rationale for why he did what he did, but it's no different from if I spent an hour or two to come up with my own formula to weigh player stats the way I feel they should be weighed. And all this just to say "Bargnani can't rebound for beans, shoots farther from the rim than most bigs, and isn't the best defender." That is clear without another new fancy stat. It's clear from seeing his -4.9 PER differential. It's clear from seeing the team be a -2.6 net differential between Bargnani being on the floor and off. The next time someone creates a new stat, be sure that it doesn't allow for the Bargnani SG loophole discussed above. I'm a big believer in Sabermetrics, but none of the statistics for basketball can be treated as anywhere near as scientific as those in baseball.

Some additional food for thought: if we are to treat this new "Value" stat as scientific, we also have to accept that Calderon was the MVP for the team, and not, as many here think, insufficiently good at at offense to cover for his defensive shortcomings.

p.s. This wasn't an attack on you, Tim, but on CA.

[Tim W.]

Screw you, Quixotic. Why do you have to be so hurtful!

[Quixotic]

Screw you, Quixotic. Why do you have to be so hurtful!

I guess you're no longer coming over tonight.

I think you can forgive me though as I'm now in the "let's look for a trade partner for Bargnani" camp.

[Tim W.]

I guess you're no longer coming over tonight.

I think you can forgive me though as I'm now in the "let's look for a trade partner for Bargnani" camp.

Aw, who am I kidding. I can't stay mad at you! Especially after you said those sweet things about Bargnani.