Kanter rejects Raptors

[GarbageTime]

[QUOTE=Matt52;84174]

I can guarantee you there are more people watching Raptors games than Wizards games. Every Raptor game is televised across Canada. If Toronto has better attendance, who cares if the watching public is in the hometown of the franchise or spread across 6000km? I could be wrong, but I would think television viewership of one sh!t franchise in a city with around 600,000 people would be much less than the viewership of another sh!t franchise in a country with 32,000,000 - with the population size being over 53 times as large and basketball being a very popular sport in Canada - albeit not as popular as hockey, not even close - I think the Raps can do better than DC, much better in fact, in TV viewership. Even if DC has 4 times as many basketball watching fans per capita than Toronto, they still have the same number of viewers in their home cities.

If players want to be seen by as many people as they possibly can, then the Raptors are the place to come - unless one American viewer is equal to twenty Canadians or something else I am not aware of.

With all that said, your argument is based soley on the premise that players don't want to play here and people do not want to watch basketball. One of those statements are true - players don't want to play here.

If the Raptors are able to win and have an exciting product (getting high picks in sh!t drafts don't help either), then players will not hesitate to come here. The US recognition and televised games on TNT, ABC or whatever national television station in the States will come - it did before with VC and it will again in time if the Raptors become a winning and exciting product. Keep in mind OKC has been 3 years in the making (4 if you count SEA) and they are only late last year and this year getting the recognition.

http://www.nba.com/wizards/media/wiz10-11schedule-a.pdf
2 games on TNT, 0 on ESPN, 5 on NBAtv.
The first TNT game was John Wall's first as a pro being #1 pick on October 28.
I believe I recall the 2nd at end of November actually being cancelled because they sucked but I could be very wrong there.

The Wizards, much like Toronto, SAC, MIN, etc, will get the national US attention when they have something to show.

so we are going to list all of Canada but not all of America then? (which is 10x the size of Canada) If excitment brings people to watch games, isn't Washington a team that has atleast one exciting player in Wall (perhaps 2 in McGee) against Toronto's 0?


So the Wiz get 6 (maybe 7 games) vs how many for the Raps (0?... don't know this for sure, but couldn't find any information showing any nationally televised games in America)? Why would the networks want Wizard games instead of Raptors game if they felt there would have been more viewers? (trust me when I say this... networks want the most viewers possible. Period. Viewers = money from advertising)


My premise is NOT that players don't want to play here or that people do not want to watch. But rather Toronto is not a team that is going to get much (or as much) attention (mainly because hockey is the sport of choice but also do to being outside America) and that causes players to find other locations more desirable (there may be more reasons than this for players to not want to play here, but I'll limit them to just getting attention). Since players find other locations more desirable there will be a tendency for them to leave (Damon, McGrady, Vince, Bosh) which in turn reduces viewership. Less viewership means less games televised, which means less attention. And the circle continues.

[Matt52]

[QUOTE=GarbageTime;84186]

so we are going to list all of Canada but not all of America then? (which is 10x the size of Canada) If excitment brings people to watch games, isn't Washington a team that has atleast one exciting player in Wall (perhaps 2 in McGee) against Toronto's 0?


So the Wiz get 6 (maybe 7 games) vs how many for the Raps (0?... don't know this for sure, but couldn't find any information showing any nationally televised games in America)? Why would the networks want Wizard games instead of Raptors game if they felt there would have been more viewers? (trust me when I say this... networks want the most viewers possible. Period. Viewers = money from advertising)


My premise is NOT that players don't want to play here or that people do not want to watch. But rather Toronto is not a team that is going to get much (or as much) attention (mainly because hockey is the sport of choice but also do to being outside America) and that causes players to find other locations more desirable (there may be more reasons than this for players to not want to play here, but I'll limit them to just getting attention). Since players find other locations more desirable there will be a tendency for them to leave (Damon, McGrady, Vince, Bosh) which in turn reduces viewership. Less viewership means less games televised, which means less attention. And the circle continues.

Not every Wizards game is broadcast nationally. Every Raptors game is, it just happens to be in Canada. So your argument of total numbers of viewership is shot - no if's, and's, or but's as this was your argument before. 6 or 7 games and only 1, maybe 2, really national (as you said yourself earlier NBA TV is not the same) and it was opening night with a franchise calibre, exciting PG who was the #1 pick no less.

A WSH team that has one exciting player was reason to televise one game - his first and it was. The Raps do not have a player near the calibre of John Wall. I already mentioned this problem as the Raptors have not had an opportunity to draft a legit franchise player.... well, ever.

I do get what you are saying, the problem is your argument has two flaws:

1) you think every player is egotistical and wants non-stop US coverage. It is true for many franchise players (LeBron, Wade, James, Anthony, Howard), but not all. Durant, for example, is quite happy and content to play in a small market because they have a winning organization. Duncan as well. Ditto for Nash.

2) you do not consider Toronto will ever win. If Toronto are competing for the top of the standings with games that will have playoff implications or are making deep playoff runs, the NBA and TNT/ABC/ESPN/Whoever are not going to cancel their contracts or broadcast other shows because it is Toronto on the schedule.

The Raptors, like about 22 other franchises, are looking for a young and exciting core to build around to be contenders for years to come. It is unfortunate the draft has not been able to get a bonafide star in Toronto but there is always next year. Toronto may not ever be the number one destination of free agents but neither was or is Memphis or OKC/SEA - how do you think both will fair this offseason? Much better than recent years I bet.

[GarbageTime]

[QUOTE=Matt52;84202]

Not every Wizards game is broadcast nationally. Every Raptors game is, it just happens to be in Canada. So your argument of total numbers of viewership is shot - no if's, and's, or but's as this was your argument before. 6 or 7 games and only 1, maybe 2, really national (as you said yourself earlier NBA TV is not the same) and it was opening night with a franchise calibre, exciting PG who was the #1 pick no less.

A WSH team that has one exciting player was reason to televise one game - his first and it was. The Raps do not have a player near the calibre of John Wall. I already mentioned this problem as the Raptors have not had an opportunity to draft a legit franchise player.... well, ever.

I do get what you are saying, the problem is your argument has two flaws:

1) you think every player is egotistical and wants non-stop US coverage. It is true for many franchise players (LeBron, Wade, James, Anthony, Howard), but not all. Durant, for example, is quite happy and content to play in a small market because they have a winning organization. Duncan as well. Ditto for Nash.

2) you do not consider Toronto will ever win. If Toronto are competing for the top of the standings with games that will have playoff implications or are making deep playoff runs, the NBA and TNT/ABC/ESPN/Whoever are not going to cancel their contracts or broadcast other shows because it is Toronto on the schedule.

The Raptors, like about 22 other franchises, are looking for a young and exciting core to build around to be contenders for years to come. It is unfortunate the draft has not been able to get a bonafide star in Toronto but there is always next year. Toronto may not ever be the number one destination of free agents but neither was or is Memphis or OKC/SEA - how do you think both will fair this offseason? Much better than recent years I bet.

First off I said nothing about NBATV so I'm not sure where you got that from.

Secondly... Raps games are covered nationally in Canada. But again this goes back to selling "I hate immigrants" Tshirts to mexicans. I'll tell you that outside southern ontario (and even at times within) I've heard the "Basketball is just a bunch of N****s wearing pajamas" comment alot more than, "damn did you see the game last night?" Thats not even getting into the slew of "yeah I like b-ball, but the hockey game is on tonight" guys.

I completely agree that it takes a player of the right mindset. I have said this numerous times (not here but in the past). The problem ofcourse is finding them... because as time goes on their attitudes change. Bosh for instance I believe was perfectly fine with Toronto, but as he got to know the other superstars, saw what they had, they attention they got I think his attitude changed (I could be wrong here and he could have been a douche from the start, but I'll give him the benifit of the doubt). But thats why this team needs to avoid players that don't have that mindset (much easier said then done ofcourse)

Finally I have never said it will always stay the same even if the Raps win. But rather its a hinderence to becoming a winner, and that in turn is a hinderence to getting players, which is a hinderence to getting viewers (and each of those are interconnected). Its gonna be a long road to get there... will take a combination of both the points you made. An exciting talented player with a loyal mindset and good personality that can take a team to the top, along with all the assets it takes to help beside him. That is no small task, especially with how the game (and players) tend to lean towards the Lebron/Bosh personality as opposed to the Durant/Duncan's this team needs.

Even then that is no guarantee that it will work. Again look at hockey in the southern US. (not that I think the Raps will get to that point ie. near bankruptcy)

In the meantime, fans shouldn't dillude themselves that this is the 4th largest market. That players are fine with coming here and its the teams/leagues/GMs/countries/fans/players fault. In specific cases it may be. In specific cases it may also just be players not wanting to play in Canada. But more than anything its the invisible hand of the market, and you just don't get to control that with a magic wand.

[RaptorDan]

I'll tell you that outside southern ontario (and even at times within) I've heard the "Basketball is just a bunch of N****s wearing pajamas"

I call bullshit. Watch what you say.

[Tim W.]

Secondly... Raps games are covered nationally in Canada. But again this goes back to selling "I hate immigrants" Tshirts to mexicans. I'll tell you that outside southern ontario (and even at times within) I've heard the "Basketball is just a bunch of N****s wearing pajamas" comment alot more than, "damn did you see the game last night?"

What the hell kind of people do you hang around? Basketball is a popular sport played across the country. And is more popular in more populated areas, where there are obviously more viewers. Quite frankly, who cares if people in the sticks don't like basketball, because the big markets, like Montreal, Vancouver, Halifax etc, are where the viewers are, and basketball is popular there. Especially among young people. Don't believe me? CHeck out how the attendance of NBA exhibition games are in these cities.

Basically, I think you need to get your facts straight.

[RaptorDan]

What the hell kind of people do you hang around? Basketball is a popular sport played across the country. And is more popular in more populated areas, where there are obviously more viewers. Quite frankly, who cares if people in the sticks don't like basketball, because the big markets, like Montreal, Vancouver, Halifax etc, are where the viewers are, and basketball is popular there. Especially among young people. Don't believe me? CHeck out how the attendance of NBA exhibition games are in these cities.

Basically, I think you need to get your facts straight.

Why did you get it to say Matt52 wrote this when it was Garbagetime

[Tim W.]

Why did you get it to say Matt52 wrote this when it was Garbagetime

Oops. There was an extra quote on the top. I thought I had deleted it, but I accidentally deleted the wrong one. Thanks. Fixed.

Sorry, Matt. I knew that wasn't you.

[Tank]

From http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...?eref=writers:

Yet the talk surrounding Kanter in Chicago had much more to do with the fact that he didn't sit down for interviews with Utah (No. 3, No. 12 picks), Toronto (No. 5) and Milwaukee (No. 10). Those non-meetings raised questions about whether Kanter's camp was avoiding certain teams, but Ergul said that wasn't entirely the case. They were only avoiding the Bucks.
"The only one I really didn't care for him [to go to] is Milwaukee," Ergul said. "I'll be honest ... it came out all wrong. [Utah general manager] Kevin [O'Connor] knew about it ... We called them, and it was because in next two weeks I had a feeling we were going to see each other extensively, so there's no reason for that [interview].

"Utah is coming here to Chicago, and we're going to go to Minnesota in the second half of June," Ergul said. "Toronto is coming here. Cleveland (Nos. 1 and 4 picks), we're trying to discussing logistics of dates and stuff."

Looks like Miluakee (who pick 10th as mentioned) were really the only ones that were declined interviews, and for good reason too as Kanter will not slip that far down so almost a waste of time.

[GarbageTime]

I call bullshit. Watch what you say.

Thats not what I said... its what others have said. And do not for a second think you have any right to tell me to watch what I say. Deal with it.

To Tim, this is just not "in the hicks". I have heard that in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.

That said, I'm not trying to indicate that this is the most common thought. It was obviously and extreme example, but not one that is as rare as it should be.

[Matt52]

First off I said nothing about NBATV so I'm not sure where you got that from.

Secondly... Raps games are covered nationally in Canada. But again this goes back to selling "I hate immigrants" Tshirts to mexicans. I'll tell you that outside southern ontario (and even at times within) I've heard the "Basketball is just a bunch of N****s wearing pajamas" comment alot more than, "damn did you see the game last night?" Thats not even getting into the slew of "yeah I like b-ball, but the hockey game is on tonight" guys.

I completely agree that it takes a player of the right mindset. I have said this numerous times (not here but in the past). The problem ofcourse is finding them... because as time goes on their attitudes change. Bosh for instance I believe was perfectly fine with Toronto, but as he got to know the other superstars, saw what they had, they attention they got I think his attitude changed (I could be wrong here and he could have been a douche from the start, but I'll give him the benifit of the doubt). But thats why this team needs to avoid players that don't have that mindset (much easier said then done ofcourse)

Finally I have never said it will always stay the same even if the Raps win. But rather its a hinderence to becoming a winner, and that in turn is a hinderence to getting players, which is a hinderence to getting viewers (and each of those are interconnected). Its gonna be a long road to get there... will take a combination of both the points you made. An exciting talented player with a loyal mindset and good personality that can take a team to the top, along with all the assets it takes to help beside him. That is no small task, especially with how the game (and players) tend to lean towards the Lebron/Bosh personality as opposed to the Durant/Duncan's this team needs.

Even then that is no guarantee that it will work. Again look at hockey in the southern US. (not that I think the Raps will get to that point ie. near bankruptcy)

In the meantime, fans shouldn't dillude themselves that this is the 4th largest market. That players are fine with coming here and its the teams/leagues/GMs/countries/fans/players fault. In specific cases it may be. In specific cases it may also just be players not wanting to play in Canada. But more than anything its the invisible hand of the market, and you just don't get to control that with a magic wand.

Your comment is beyond inappropriate. More importantly your comments are opinions you have which are not backed by fact. You are welcome to them, of course. However, opinion and fact are two different animals that will continue to cause dispute until eventually you are ignored.

Hockey in the southern US continues to be and is a bad example. Some markets in the US are strong (San Jose, LA, Nashville) - not all are bad. Once again it comes down to a winning product. Dallas and Anaheim struggled this year but years when they have had strong teams, they have had strong attendance. There are some hockey markets that are horrible (Atlanta) however those markets are nowhere near a comparison to Toronto and basketball. It is interesting though how ATL, outside of the playoffs, also has poor attendance for the Hawks who have a homegrown star on the roster in Josh Smith. So once again another argument shot.

Finding a franchise player is difficult for any team - Toronto is no exception. Most come through the draft, very rarely do they come through free agency (Shaq to LAL, LBJ to MIA, Nash to PHX are exceptions, not the norm).

Once again the argument is twisted. We have already established that Toronto is a great basketball market; attendance, profits, and franchise value all confirm this. We have already established that Toronto has just as many, if not more, viewers as a team such as Washington. We have established not all players every motive is for media attention. Now the argument is:

its a hinderence to becoming a winner, and that in turn is a hinderence to getting players, which is a hinderence to getting viewers (and each of those are interconnected).

So I am guessing that anything less than making US national broadcasts is not acceptable. If that is your opinion, that is fine. But once again, there are plenty of franchises that are not televised nationally in the US. This is reserved for the top teams - and rightfully so. No one in Idaho is looking to watch a Raptors game just as, unless they are from there, they are not looking to watch a Kings or Nets game. There was a time when SEA (late 90's), UTA (90's and in to early 2000's), WSH (mid 2000's), CLE (until last year), New Jersey (2005-2007) - just to name a few - were all playing on US network television. Why? Because they were winning and now they are not on US network television. Why? Because they no longer are winning.

In the meantime, fans shouldn't dillude themselves that this is the 4th largest market. That players are fine with coming here and its the teams/leagues/GMs/countries/fans/players fault. In specific cases it may be. In specific cases it may also just be players not wanting to play in Canada. But more than anything its the invisible hand of the market, and you just don't get to control that with a magic wand.

Nonsense - Toronto is the 4th largest market and arguably the largest if you go with the idea of "Canada's team". As for the magic wand, it is comprised of good people in management and on the court combined with an opportunity to win and get a deserving salary. Your argument paints every single player with the same brush. I am not doubting it to be true for some players however provide a competitive salary and a winning team and the number of players drops. There will always be players who don't want to play for Toronto just as there will always be players who don't want to play for Minnesota (Rubio) or New Jersey (Anthony) or Charlotte (Kobe) or New York (LeBron) or Orlando (Shaq).

Its gonna be a long road to get there... will take a combination of both the points you made. An exciting talented player with a loyal mindset and good personality that can take a team to the top, along with all the assets it takes to help beside him. That is no small task, especially with how the game (and players) tend to lean towards the Lebron/Bosh personality as opposed to the Durant/Duncan's this team needs.

This is something I actually agree with and it is the struggle every losing franchise faces.

If the comment about not even being able to make NBA tv did not come from you, I apologize

[joey_hesketh]

I commend you Matt. I've been following this one, and wanted to jump in, but that one was just too big for me to get involved with. haha

I'm not really sure how Garbage has managed to fight you on that for so long, but I completely agree with you're saying. Your arguments seem to be about as logical as they can get; you've literally said everything there is to be said.
I'd leave the rest of that one for the fishes. You're work here is done.

[joey_hesketh]

Thats not what I said... its what others have said. And do not for a second think you have any right to tell me to watch what I say. Deal with it.

To Tim, this is just not "in the hicks". I have heard that in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.

That said, I'm not trying to indicate that this is the most common thought. It was obviously and extreme example, but not one that is as rare as it should be.

He didn't tell you what to say... he simply suggested you be more mindful of the way you phrase some things.
Clearly you don't care. But others do.

I've been all over Canada. Many times. And I've NEVER heard that comment you made about Basketball. Nor have I ever heard anything even remotely along those lines. I'm not sure people are as ignorant as you may think. Or perhaps its just you.
You must be referring to the population of the Country who watchs LumberJack Competitions. Enough said.

[MyMomLovesMe]

GarbageTime, I think you are crudely saying that Basketball is only popular among certain demographics. You will hear some funny comments, when you ask for basketball in cottage country during the NHL season.

The good thing is that this is becoming less and less so. The world is much more global, and being a hick is becoming less cool even in hickville.

[joey_hesketh]

and being a hick is becoming less cool even in hickville.

Man, I hope so.