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Thread: Three Team Blockbuster Trade Rumor

  1. #181
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    Quote deebee wrote: View Post
    Gay's not exactly a high-rebounding SF and he's pretty tenacious on D, they could probably stick him at the 2
    As mentioned, Gay is actually a very good rebounder, for SF, and he simply doesn't have the ball handling skills to play SG. I think he'd struggle keeping up with some of the quicker guards,. too.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    As mentioned, Gay is actually a very good rebounder, for SF, and he simply doesn't have the ball handling skills to play SG. I think he'd struggle keeping up with some of the quicker guards,. too.
    he has the speed to guard, and you can probably play gay off the ball anyways in catch and shoot situations if you look at the 2006 draft combine measurements, gay is faster than roy and jordan farmar, heres the link http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...-Results-1352/ but i think gay should still be kept at SF

  3. #183
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    Quote bboyskinnylegs wrote: View Post
    I agree individuals can't make great defensive teams (well, unless you're talking about a real anchor like Dwight...there's absolutely no way Orlando is as good defensively as they are without him).

    But individuals can create huge problems defensively... and that's exactly what we see happen with Bargnani. You can cover for a guy that get's beat off the dribble (which happens frequently at the PG position, although a certain amount of resistance is needed) ... you CANNOT cover for someone that does not rotate to contest shots/help on D, or is not securing rebounds, etc. Bargnani is not the only reason we're a bad defensive team-- but as long as he is playing center 'protecting' the basket for us, our defense will never be much better than it is now... now worst in the league for the 2nd consecutive year.

    I strongly disagree that Bargs was our best player in any way. All he did was put up 21points on below league average efficiency (53.3 TS%) and very high usage (28.1%). He averaged a 16.2 PER at C this year. His counterparts averaged a 21.1 PER playing against him.
    I compare Bargnani's defensive deficiencies to the Zack Randolph situation in Memphis. Randolph has been labeled a lazy, defensively inept power forward for year. Then, suddenly he goes to a real team and, poof!, he's one of the best power forwards in the league! Randolph did probably undergo an attitude adjustment, but hey, that does usually come with playing for a good, winning team. Again, I know that Bargnani is not a good defensive player, but put him on a good team, and I bet his offensive and defensive efficiency ratings go wayyy up.

  4. #184
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    Quote SCass wrote: View Post
    I compare Bargnani's defensive deficiencies to the Zack Randolph situation in Memphis. Randolph has been labeled a lazy, defensively inept power forward for year. Then, suddenly he goes to a real team and, poof!, he's one of the best power forwards in the league! Randolph did probably undergo an attitude adjustment, but hey, that does usually come with playing for a good, winning team. Again, I know that Bargnani is not a good defensive player, but put him on a good team, and I bet his offensive and defensive efficiency ratings go wayyy up.
    I bet that's why Colangelo has traded him yet. He's still waiting for Toronto to be that good team.

  5. #185
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    As mentioned, Gay is actually a very good rebounder, for SF
    This is the type of question that can be answered, at least in part, by checking the data on hoopsdata.com.

    2010-11
    Rudy Gay: ORR=4.5 DRR=14.2 TRR=9.3
    SF Avg : ORR=4.2 DRR=13.9 TRR=9.1

    2009-10
    Rudy Gay: ORR=4.2 DRR=13.1 TRR=8.7
    SF Avg : ORR=4.7 DRR=13.9 TRR=9.3

    2008-09
    Rudy Gay: ORR=4.5 DRR=13.9 TRR=9.1
    SF Avg : ORR=4.4 DRR=13.5 TRR=9.0

    Based upon the basic data from the last three years, there is no evidence which indicates Rudy Gay is nothing but an average rebounder for a SF.

  6. #186
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    This is the type of question that can be answered, at least in part, by checking the data on hoopsdata.com.

    2010-11
    Rudy Gay: ORR=4.5 DRR=14.2 TRR=9.3
    SF Avg : ORR=4.2 DRR=13.9 TRR=9.1

    2009-10
    Rudy Gay: ORR=4.2 DRR=13.1 TRR=8.7
    SF Avg : ORR=4.7 DRR=13.9 TRR=9.3

    2008-09
    Rudy Gay: ORR=4.5 DRR=13.9 TRR=9.1
    SF Avg : ORR=4.4 DRR=13.5 TRR=9.0

    Based upon the basic data from the last three years, there is no evidence which indicates Rudy Gay is nothing but an average rebounder for a SF.
    but based on your stats Rudy Gay is technically above average in 2008 and 2010....and last year our SF turk averaged like 4 boards

  7. #187
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    I believe that the Grizzlies are open to moving Gay, despite what Heisley has said publicly. They just invested $106 million to Conley & Randolph for the next four seasons and Gasol is likely to be paid another $50-60 million once July rolls around. Throw in Gay's max contact and they are basically at the cap line with those four players alone.

    And I'm not foolish enough to think that Rudy Gay was holding back the Grizzlies through the first two-thirds of the season, but the fact that Memphis went on to play their best ball of the year once he went down should at least warm them up to the idea of moving him in a deal.

    But I have a hard time believing that they can't find a better deal than this. Moving Gay, Mayo and Henry for Barbosa, Bargnani and George makes them older, less athletic and less talented. Plus they don't even save THAT much money since they're on the hook for Bargnani's $10 million annually until 2015. That doesn't make much sense to me. I feel like Gay could get them much more in return from a talent perspective, or at the very least more savings from a financial point of view.

  8. #188
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    Quote er1csh3n wrote: View Post
    but based on your stats Rudy Gay is technically above average in 2008 and 2010....and last year our SF turk averaged like 4 boards
    I am not sure if you are referring to Turk's numbers for 2009-10 but just in case you were:

    ORR=2.2
    DRR=15.2
    TRR=8.9

    A terrible offensive rebounder, as is often the case for long range shooters, but a somewhat better than average defensive rebounder.

  9. #189
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    owners are always going to deny stuff like this. talks can be delicate and then once the media grabs wind of it and it spreads you have everyone commenting on it and it can destroy talks.

    like we experienced in that infamous charlotte-toronto non-trade.
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  10. #190
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    Default Rumoured 3 team deal and what it means for Raptors

    First off, the Raptors are not involved directly in this deal. Chris Broussard is reporting about a deal between Cleveland, Minnesota and Detroit...
    The Cavaliers are in discussions with the Minnesota Timberwolves and Detroit Pistons about a three-team trade that would give Cleveland the top two picks of next month's NBA draft.

    The Cavaliers would use the picks to select Duke point guard Kyrie Irving and Arizona forward Derrick Williams, the sources said.

    In the trade being discussed, Cleveland would absorb Detroit's Richard Hamilton into the $14.6 million trade exception it received in last summer's LeBron James sign-and-trade with Miami, while also receiving the Pistons' No. 8 pick. The Cavaliers would then send that pick, along with their fourth pick, to Minnesota for the Timberwolves' second pick.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2...ory?id=6603100

    Apparently Detroit is hesitant about this deal, because they get nothing back in return for Hamilton. Quite frankly, I don't even understand why they are in the deal at all.

    Anyway, if Cleveland drafts 2nd and Minnesota 4th, that might change the outlook of the draft, a little. Williams would definitely go second, since that's why Cleveland is trading up. They'd end up with both Irving AND Williams. Not a bad draft.

    Minnesota had no need for Williams with Beasley on the roster, but what exactly do they have need for? Obviously not a PG, so they won't take either Walker or Knight.

    Apart from not taking a PG, who they want is anyone's guess. They're biggest team need is probably defense, especially with Rubio probably coming over, so I'm guessing they are looking at guys like Vesley, Leonard, Valanciunas, and Biyombo. Valanciunas is considered more of a project, and Minnesota apparently wants to win now, so I'd cross him off the list. Personally, I think the Wolves don't want another SF. They already have Beasley, Randolph, Webster and Wesley Johnson, all of whom can play SF.

    I really don't think Kanter is someone they will want, since he duplicates a lot of what Kevin Love brings.

    To me, I think they might be going after Biyombo. Scouts feel he can immediately make an impact on defense.

    Thoughts?

    They could go after Vesley or Leonard, who are SFs but in a very different way from Beasley. Leonard, especially,
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  11. #191
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    The trade does not make much sense from Detroit's perspective. Maybe if the Pistons can get a player(s) in return: Sessions? Flynn? Hickson? Varejao? Or cheap young contracts such as Eyenga/Harris/Harangody/Samuels/Erden?

    Of those, Hickson is the only one I'd see as unrealistic.

    As for Minnesota, I am surprised at them ending up with 2 more lottery picks in it all. The last thing they need is more talent - especially unremarkable young talent. I would imagine for them it becomes more trade chips.

    *It is all I can do to not mention Calderon here*

    I'd be all for this from a Raptors perspective. Cleveland has been rumoured to be interested in Kanter so that would be one less team to worry about and one step closer to landing at 5.

  12. #192
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    The Pistons couldn't find a taker for Rip at the deadline and now there is word they might balk at the thought of cap dumping him? Interesting... To me he looked washed up last season so who is going to line up for that?

  13. #193
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    This is such a tease. After all this, we still won't get Kanter at 5. Tease!
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  14. #194
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    and Minnesota apparently wants to win now
    lol

  15. #195
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    No way this trade happens. Dumars hasn't shit the bed THAT badly.
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  16. #196
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    Goodness, this is amazing. If the Raps were to pick up a big man in FA, it would give us the opportunity to draft either Walker or Knight. Our line up would be crazy !

  17. #197
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    If this goes through, and Utah keeps the 3rd pick, I think it is very likely that they draft Knight. I think Minnesota would take either Kanter or Valanciunas.

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    If they take Knight then what do they plan on doing with Devin Harris in his $18M remaining over two seasons? With Jefferson, Favors, Milsap and Okur already on the books it would mean that somebody is still getting traded should they draft a big man. My bet is Okur given that he's regressed and has an expiring deal.

  19. #199
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    Interesting deal. Who knows what crazy thing David Kahn will do with the potential 4th and 8th pick they'd land in the deal..

    I knew this trade was going to be revisited, it almost went through at the season's trade deadline involving only Cleveland and Detroit, but apparently Hamilton botched it.

    BC should try and take Cleveland's spot in this rumored deal, and offer the T-Wolves one of either Bargnani/Calderon (whichever one they want, preferably the former) and the Raptor's own fifth pick in exchange for their second pick. Or maybe I'm just dreaming lol..

  20. #200
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    A long but great debate about should the Grizzlies trade Rudy Gay between Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard.

    ESPN Insider
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...ory?id=6602765

    Question: Should the Memphis Grizzlies trade Rudy Gay?
    BUCHER: The Memphis Grizzlies knocked off the top-seeded San Antonio Spurs and pushed the Oklahoma City Thunder to seven games in the conference semifinals, all without their second-highest-paid player and second-leading scorer, Rudy Gay, who had season-ending shoulder surgery in late March.

    While a number of opposing GMs are convinced the Grizzlies will put Gay on the market to lighten their payroll, because they did so well without him and need to re-sign two key free agents, Marc Gasol and Shane Battier, owner Michael Heisley has said he has no intention of moving Gay. The question is, would they be better served to keep him or not? I believe there's a reason the team found its stride after Gay got injured and that it should look to move him.

    BROUSSARD: I think the Grizzlies should try to make it work with Gay. He's too talented to move without at least giving him a try. While they had a terrific playoff run, they are far from a complete team, far from a team that can just get rid of a guy like Gay without seeing if he can fit in first. The major weakness of the Grizzlies was their inability to hit 3-pointers, and Gay is one of their better long-range shooters. That, combined with his midrange game and scoring ability off the drive, should only make Memphis better -- if he makes an effort to fit into its inside-out game rather than be a ball stopper. Gay came out of a strong system at UConn, so I believe he can fit in. At the very least, the Griz should give him a chance.


    RB: On paper, I agree that Gay provides a piece that was missing in the Grizzlies' playoff arsenal: namely, a guy who can create his own shot with a game on the line. And my suggestion that they move him is based on the presumption that they're going to get a similarly talented player back. Who that player would be is a big factor in this.

    But let's face it, there were massive chemistry issues with the Grizzlies that were holding them back, issues that were resolved with the injury to Gay and the acquisition of Shane Battier. I would like to believe that Rudy saw how successful the team was without him and would be willing to change how he plays, to commit more effort on defense, stop taking tough shots and move the ball quicker. I would have more confidence that that could happen if he'd found a way to be more effective incorporating his talents with Team USA.

    The fact is Andre Iguodala, who doesn't have the same pure talent, made the exact transformation both last summer and this season that Gay needs to make. The tricky part, as I see it, is that there is obviously a tremendous amount of interest in Gay and the market may never be better than it is right now. The suitors for him now may not have the cap room to acquire him under the next CBA, or the same inclination to trade for him if the Grizzlies' experiment in bringing him back doesn't work.

    CB: At one time I thought a Gay-for-Iguodala trade would be a good idea -- for both the Grizzlies and the Sixers. But what you like to call "a transformation" was really regression. Fact is that while Iguodala is wildly athletic and versatile, he's not skilled enough to be a No. 1 or No. 2 scorer on a deep playoff team. He's now a role player -- a valuable and versatile one, to be sure, but he has become a better, glorified version of Sam Young.

    My point is that the Griz already have good role players, including Battier. What they need now is a bona fide perimeter scorer who can give them 20 points a night. That's Gay. Gay was a 40 percent 3-point shooter this year! Imagine if he had played in that series against OKC. He would have opened up the post for Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol and left OKC with too many poisons to pick from.

    Gay shoots only 16 times a game. It's not like he's a volume shooter. He's efficient and a good rebounder, as well. Watching the Griz do it without him will only make him want to fit into Lionel Hollins' new system. OK, he may drop to 18 points per game and be the second-leading scorer to Randolph. But by bringing his unique skill set to Memphis and helping the Griz become legitimate contenders, he'll get more love, respect and accolades than he ever would as a 22-point scorer on a lottery team, and I think Rudy's smart enough to realize that. Memphis needs to keep him.

    RB: You are, to this point, the only person I know who views how Iguodala played last season as a regression. He made the 76ers collectively better by putting more into defense and becoming immensely more efficient on offense. He was an all-defensive selection (second team) for the first time in his career and Doug Collins, who does not hand out compliments gratuitously, thought he deserved more defensive player of the year consideration than he received. He also was far more efficient with the ball, as his career-high assist-to-turnover ratio reflected.

    That's the "regression" Rudy needs to experience if he's going to improve this Memphis team and not set it back. And how can you say he's not a volume shooter? He averaged the most shots on his team and was among the top 20 in the league in shots taken, yet was 65th in points produced per shot. Perhaps most important, the Grizzlies won when he shot less last season. An opposing player told me they knew they could beat the Grizzlies by forcing Rudy (and Zach) into bad shots because they would still take them.

    For Rudy's and the Grizzlies' sake, I'd love to see him realize it's incumbent upon him now to change, but why didn't he accept that last season before he got hurt? Why didn't he learn the same lesson about how to win that every other guy who played on Team USA in Istanbul did? I hate to be the curmudgeon on this; I prefer believing guys will evolve and mature. But don't tell me what he could provide if he changed -- heck, we all know that. And don't tell me about what he'd reap by making the transformation -- we all know that, too. Just tell me why I should believe that Rudy has it in him to change, one thing he's done previously that suggests he's capable of being a different guy. Because that's one thing that is not debatable: Rudy has to come back with a different mindset and a different game if he's going to make the Grizzlies better than they were without him.

    CB: First of all, let's stop acting as if Philadelphia made some great improvement. The Sixers were 41-41, same as they were two years ago, before Iguodala made his "transformation." That year, he averaged 19 points on 47 percent shooting, numbers far more befitting of an $80 million man than the 14 points and 44 percent shooting he put up this season. I know Andre Miller was there two years ago, but Elton Brand was hurt. The presence of a rejuvenated Brand plus the improvement of Jrue Holiday more than make up for the loss of Miller. My point is that you act as if Iguodala's "transformation" led to some vast improvement when they're actually the same mediocre squad they were with a "different" Iguodala. Just shows how bad they were under Eddie Jordan. But I digress …

    Rudy Gay is 24 years old and a veteran of five seasons. Who are you to write his epitaph? To relegate him to the status of a stuck-in-his-ways old fogey? People thought Paul Pierce couldn't change either, that he wouldn't want to share the ball with Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. How'd that prediction work? Fact is, Rudy has no choice. The entire world has seen what ball movement and teamwork has done for the Grizzlies. Why wouldn't he conform and fit in? He's got the skill set to do so and still get his points.

    And you know what? If it doesn't work, if Gay can't adjust or the chemistry just isn't there, then they can trade him. But to do so before the season, before even giving it a try, would be shortsighted and a mistake.

    RB: What a crazy argument: Iguodala shouldn't adjust his game to make the team better because A) he's making $80 million and should keep his individual stats high to justify that money, and B) because they were only a .500 team, the sacrifices he made weren't all that important. If Rudy Gay has the same attitude, the Grizzlies are sunk.

    And how are you going to make a comparison to a Sixers team two years ago when there are seven different faces on the roster? No one -- I mean, no one -- was worried about Pierce sharing the ball with KG and Allen. He'd already done so with Antoine Walker, Ricky Davis, Wally Szczerbiak and a host of other guys not nearly as talented.

    That's what concerns me about Rudy: he's had talent around him and still been stuck on taking bad shots even when it has been counterproductive. I would wholeheartedly support giving Rudy a chance to prove he's seen the light if we weren't looking at a league about to severely crimp player movement with a new collective bargaining agreement, and if teams weren't eager to make a deal now before that happens. If the Grizzlies sign back Marc Gasol and Shane Battier, they will have one of the fattest payrolls in one of the smallest markets. Do they move Gay, maintain their cap flexibility and collect some future talent -- Derrick Williams, for example, with the No. 2 pick -- or do they hang their hat on Gay being a changed man and thereby making the team a championship contender? From what history has taught us, I'd say they're better served keeping their options open.

    CB: The Sixers' core is virtually the same as it was a couple of years ago (minus Andre Miller), but that's beside the point. I personally spoke with a handful of coaches who had questions about Pierce's willingness to share the ball, but that's not the point, either. The point is that the Grizzlies have got a guy with the skill set to help them out big time. There's no need for Memphis to rush into a trade without giving Gay a shot.
    @Chr1st1anL

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