View Poll Results: Where does Jose rank all-time on the list of top Raptors PG's?

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    18 54.55%
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    8 24.24%
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    3 9.09%
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    3 9.09%
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Thread: Where Does Jose Calderon Rank In Raptors' History At The Point?

  1. #1
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Where Does Jose Calderon Rank In Raptors' History At The Point?

    Me personally, I think this is a question of impact and length of service. Let's look at the legit options:


    Damon Stoudamire is no doubt the most talented PG the Raptors' have ever seen. He only lasted two and a half seasons though. Over that time he was simply amazing.


    Alvin Williams is the next name that pops in my mind. He may be the toughest Raptor in the history of the franchise. The guy played through everything as long as the doctors wouldn't hold him out. He wore Toronto on his chest for eight and a half seasons and was playing the night of "game seven". In fact he was a big reason why they had success that year. He's still serving the Raptors to this day (as a coach) with hard work and integrity.


    Jose Calderon would be the next name that immediately comes to mind. He's served the Raptors for six seasons now. He helped them go to the post season twice. He's posted some really nice, conservative numbers in his NBA career but is notoriously horrible on defense. At the end of the day he's always been professional and enthusiastic on the floor. One of the biggest iconic symbols to Raptors fans everywhere is his hand gesture after nailing a long range shot.

    There are a bunch of PGs who wore the purple or red, such as T.J. Ford but I think the above mentioned three are the real contenders to the crown. So who is it Raptorsland, Mighty Mouse, Alvin or Jose? Who's the best and where does Jose rank?

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Definitely Jose. We reared him from birth (so to speak).
    Alvin was a consumate pro, and will always have a special place in my heart, but Jose is definitely the All-Time Raptors great PG.

    He's our all time leader in Assists, and leads Alvin by over 1200. No ones going to pass him in a LONG time.
    Not to mention that Unbelievable season in which he shot an NBA record 98% from the FT line.
    In Masai we Trust.

  3. #3
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    My vote is with Alvin by the way. Alvin did a lot of things that Jose doesn't do. The kinds of things that can't be quantified by stats but win games.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    My vote is with Alvin by the way. Alvin did a lot of things that Jose doesn't do. The kinds of things that can't be quantified by stats but win games.
    Oh I could tell just from the write-ups. haha
    In Masai we Trust.

  5. #5
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    Define "best".

    If we're talking favorite, it's Alvin by a mile, then Jose and Damon for me. I really wish Alvin conserved himself a little better; though it was his heart that won me over, I wish we could have seen him play a few more years.

    If we're talking who I'd pick for a playoff contender, it'd be Jose (before he lost a step), Alvin, Damon, then Jose (after he lost a step). Though he wasn't a defender like Alvin, Jose was nowhere near as bad as his current rep back during the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 seasons (and he started all but 26 games those two seasons, not including injuries of course), and he really did make the team a lot better when he was on the floor.

    Perhaps it's been too long and I've forgotten all (if any) of Damon's heroics, but while he posted pretty numbers on a very bad team, he didn't seem that great when he was finally on a contender.

    P.S. I don't know if anyone else felt this way, but even though Alvin wasn't an all-star in real life, he was always a star to me in NBA 2K games. There was nothing better than guarding the other team's star with Alvin, having Alvin direct the team's offense, and having him making important shots when needed. He was the MVP for me.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Tue May 31st, 2011 at 09:58 AM.

  6. #6
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I did define best. I defined it as impact and length of service. The idea behind that is a guy playing for a short time at a higher impact may not be better than a guy playing at a lower impact but playing three times as long. In other words a mix of ability/performance and longevity is how I determine the "best". I never mentioned favorite.

    I think Alvin's defense and leadership trump any stat a Calderon supporter can throw out here.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    I am gonna have to disagree and say Roko Ukic was best PG in Raptors history.

  8. #8
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    A dub. Probably my favorite all time raptor. Dude defined heart.
    @jerboat

  9. #9
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I did define best. I defined it as impact and length of service. The idea behind that is a guy playing for a short time at a higher impact may not be better than a guy playing at a lower impact but playing three times as long. In other words a mix of ability/performance and longevity is how I determine the "best". I never mentioned favorite.

    I think Alvin's defense and leadership trump any stat a Calderon supporter can throw out here.
    Yes, but you said "me personally". I took that to mean we weren't necessarily held to the same standard when you asked who was the best at the end.

    It's especially hard to rank these three PGs when two of them had peaks that were less than half as long as their total years of service in a Raptors uniform, and the third didn't play for us very long at all, and didn't look as great when on a better team. There's no "Roy Halladay" choice, so to speak. Under your specific standard though, it'd be Alvin ahead of Jose by a tad, with Damon clearly trailing behind.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Tue May 31st, 2011 at 10:12 AM.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    If you look at impact for the franchise, I think the nod would have to go to Mighty Mouse. He won rookie of the year and put basketball on the map for Toronto/Canada (Grizzlies... meh) and ensured that the Raptors would be successful NBA franchise. For those first couple seasons, playing in Skydome in front of fans who barely knew basketball, he converted die-hard hockey/baseball fans and his heart & courage was exactly the blue-collar type of player that Toronto fans love so much.

    As for Alvin, I really liked him but never thought he was that great of a player and was an average PG at best. He played alongside Carter & T-Mac and never had to be the main guy with the ball in his hands the way you typically think of a PG. I remember several seasons where he actually split time between PG and SG. I loved his heart and hustle, but when I think of PG I want a floor general who looks to run the offense, distribute the ball and makes his unit better than the sum of the parts. Great guy, one of my favourite all-time Raptors, but definitely not the "best PG".

    I feel Calderon's image has been tarnished because of his injury plagued last couple seasons and the significant decline in his driving offense and defensive abilities. If Calderon had been able to stay healthy and didn't go through rebuilding, I think he likely would have gone down as the best true PG in the Raps history. He survived challenges from Ford, Jack and Bayless, hounding from critics, a trade that got vetoed and he handled it all with class and sportsmanship, always putting the team first. His skills may not be what they used to be, but he still runs the offense better than any PG the Raps have seen and there is a feeling of calmness and confidence when he is on the floor. I think he was the best true PG the Raps have ever had, but not the most impactful.

    My rank for "Best and most impactful/influencial PG"
    1. Stoudamire
    2. Calderon
    3. Williams

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    i'd take alvin with broken bones riddled throughout his body and on crutches before any other PG that has been on the team.

    losing seasons are more bearable when your starting point guard is holding together his body from falling apart with will power alone.

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Based on the metrics alone you'd have to go with Jose, Stoudamire and then Williams. Jose has way better numbers than Williams and is a far more efficient player than Damon despite his rookie of the year. Mighty Mouse never replicated the point/ast numbers in his first two seasons.

    Based on positive impact on the franchise, it's a tough call. Each of the three had a positive impact on the team in different ways. Stoudamire brought credibility to the franchise but his leaving really, really hurt the organization, so you can't put him #1. Calderon got two teams to the playoffs but he was a back-up in 06-07 and most of the next season, plus the team never won a series. Williams was a key piece in the early '00 decade but he was always hurt. He only played more than 60 games 3 times in 10 years in with Toronto.

    Again, length of service has to go to Jose simply cause he has played ~20 games more per year than Williams.

    1. Jose
    2. Williams
    3. Stoudamire (the negative of him leaving can't be set aside)

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I think Alvin's defense and leadership trump any stat a Calderon supporter can throw out here.
    In my opinion, Jose is just as much the Leader that Alvin was.

    And for anyone that wants to bring up Jose's injuries and Games Missed, Alvin was only able to play more than 60 games a season, 3 times. I know he was a warrior, but with all of Calderons injuries (and there have been MANY), he never missed more than 18 games in a season, and always managed to play at a relatively high level throughout. Yes his defense is sub-par, but I chalk that up to all the Hammie issues he's had. He used to be much quicker on his feet.

    When I think Point Guard, I think Making Teammates better, getting people involved and taking Care of the Ball, FIRST and FOREMOST. Jose is by far the most skilled at all of the above. In my opinion.

    I don't want this to come off as a Negative Reflection of Alvin, because as I stated, I love Alvin Williams. He was the first Raptor I ever met in person, and he was ALL CLASS. But if we are talking 'best', then for me it's Jose.


    ADD I think Slaw beat me to some of those points. Kudos.
    In Masai we Trust.

  14. #14
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    I can't believe the world's forgotten about Will Solomon already. You fickle people you.

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    Hopefully the greatest Raptor PG is in the future. Neither Jose, Alvin or Damon stack up that great against the greatest PGs of other franchises.
    Of the three Jose does it for me.

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    losing seasons are more bearable when your starting point guard is holding together his body from falling apart with will power alone.
    Well... if you put it THAT way... it's definitely exciting watching such a feat. Will he or won't he fall apart? FOCUS! =P

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Jose, Jose, Jose, Jose! Jose, Jose!
    Mark Jackson ran the show as well as anyone else, but his impact (in terms of time) was so short.

    Jose-Alvin-Damon-Jackson-T.J.-Bogues-Jack
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Calderon got two teams to the playoffs but he was a back-up in 06-07 and most of the next season, plus the team never won a series.
    It's been a common misconception that Jose played well only as a back-up. I'm not saying it's your fault, just that I've heard it repeated so many times, and it's probably why you think it to be true. He was actually the starter for most of 2007-2008, and the only reason he didn't get even more starts was because Ford was playing so much worse off the bench than as a starter he had to be put back in.

  19. #19
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    Jose, Jose, Jose, Jose! Jose, Jose!
    Mark Jackson ran the show as well as anyone else, but his impact (in terms of time) was so short.

    Jose-Alvin-Damon-Jackson-T.J.-Bogues-Jack
    You forgot Mike James, Chauncey Billups, Chris Childs, Rod Strickland, Roko Ukic and Will Solomon. =)

    EDIT: How could I forget Haywoode Workman?
    Last edited by Quixotic; Tue May 31st, 2011 at 01:05 PM. Reason: HAYWOODE!

  20. #20
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    I think that Jose has to rank higher than the others because of the fact that he makes everyone around him better.

    I am not saying that jose is a better play, but he does have a unique quality unlike the others to make teammates around him better. Look at demar and bargani. Our 2 primary scorers and our building blocks of the future. Without jose, it is hard to see them putting up the numbers they have done this past season. neither can dribble the ball nor can they create for themselves.

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