And a point guard
And a point guard
It still boggles my mind how horrible business law is in Europe , especially when dealing with contracts who's base agreements are a pittance. The sum should be in direct correlation to the money invested in the athlete. Seeking 50X the the value of the entire contract itself, just to breech it, is insane. (I understand that draft express is reporting this sum as an incorrect rumour, but it still bothersome that such rumour could be so easily believed due to the eurolegues history of using such tactics.)
Rules like these are put into place so that the club is not cheated or exploited by a player. I understand their importance. However in this case, these rules are being used for the exact opposite purpose, to extort and cheat the player of his future earnings.
When the contract itself starts being used as a money making bonanza for the club, I think the spirit of the law is broken.
Imagine if you wanted to get out of your contract with a cell phone carrier. They give the price as 50 TIMES your monthly bill, paid up front for the next 3 years (term of the contract). You look at the rep and say, "Excuse me? To cancel the contract I need to pay you 50 times the value of the entire contract? Just to cancel and rid you of your obligation to service me?"
Anyway, I still can't understand how such contracts can be taken seriously in any courtroom.
Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Tue May 31st, 2011 at 11:15 PM.
I still don't understand why he would sign this contract with the club if he knew he wanted to play in the NBA. It makes no sense.
Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.
It happens all the time. Picture this: You're a kid. You're not sure you want to go to the NBA or you're not sure you would get drafted. Some team offers you $10M over five years, what do you do? [I sign the deal]. Fast forward two seasons. No you've changed your mind, you want to play in the NBA or alternatively, people are telling you you're going to be good enough to get drafted after all. But wait, now you still have three years left on this contract.
Splitter took a long time coming here because of such a situation. Fran Vasquez can't come here right now because of it. Hitting close to home, Roko Ukic took like three years to get here after being drafted because of it.
I don't think the cell phone carrier analogy is applicable, not to mention, a fee that big to break a contract with a cell phone carrier wouldn't really be practical. Why? Because there would never be an instance where breaking the contract would save money over retaining it. But even that isn't very different from when you have a month left on your contract and you want to switch carriers. You can pay the $250 early termination fee or just get a new plan and let the old one expire on its own.
But the reason I don't think the analogy is applicable is because this is an employment contract. My knowledge in this area is a little fuzzy -- well, very fuzzy -- but I would think of it more as this: a person with unique talents (called "Jonas") signs a 5-year employment contract with an American employer (called "Rytas"), and another American employer (called "NBA") comes to poach Jonas two years into his contract. Rytas then sues NBA for tortious interference, because NBA caused Jonas to breach his employment contract with Rytas. In the U.S., a successful tortious interference case would either result in damages equal to Rytas' economic loss (in this case likely the cost of replacing such a unique talent), or a negative injunction preventing NBA from benefiting from their interference. That is, NBA would be prevented from employing Jonas.
In our case, the NBA and/or the team that drafts Valanciunas is in effect causing him to breach his existing contractual duties with Rytas. I don't know how it would work with an international breach, but the above would apply had this been an American employer. $3 mil is not insane if Valanciunas is truly as uniquely talented as the NBA makes him out to be (being slated in the lottery and all). The amount that Rytas signed him for is irrelevant; it's the cost of finding someone with the same ability and same age (same future ahead of him) that matters. If Valanciunas had been groomed into the next Michael Jordan, the buyout would understandably be even higher (as is the case with Rubio). Also, I'm pretty sure the buyout only covers the situation of being poached by another team/league. I doubt Valanciunas would be forced to pay the buyout if he just wanted to retire and work at a bookstore (but of course, the buyout would apply if he were to suddenly unretire and play for another team).
Whatever, i just dont see him being drafted by the raps though it sucks cus kanter will be surely gone by the time we pick if we end up staying at #5.
I don't think the NBA would do anything, if in the middle of of a deal, a said player was to breech a contract and go play in the Euro league. I think this has been done in the NHL with Russian players before without consequences.
International courts have more serious matters and such a case would not be worthy for such a body. Arbitration and moderation would be the next course.
If the contract was fair to begin with, than the monetary compensation saved would offset a loss to the team. In Contract law, there are examples of contracts being taken to court and renegotiated due gross imbalances. The compensation for braking the contract should be fair, and REFLECT the INVESTMENT the team has made into a player. This is not slavery, and in my opinion, a buyout clause that is 50X the value of the LIFE of the contract is highly predatory.
(its organized crime terms - and on that side of the ocean organized crime and pro sports often meet)
Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 01:11 PM.
2. It doesn't matter what the investment is. Here's an example: an individual can invest almost nothing in inventing velcro, playdough, etc., but if someone steals the idea via breach of contract, the inventor is likely to recover for full economic loss (i.e. expected economic gain had the contract not been breached) that is UNCAPPED by their investment. Capping the recovery would create a chilling effect on invention, just as it would create a chilling effect on the willingness of sports clubs to invest time and money in developing a project.
3. Clearly we disagree on the actual economic loss to the club by allowing another league to poach their players. Considering some NBA teams feel him worthy of as high as the #3 overall pick as well as believe him able to become a center-piece for years to come, it wouldn't be ridiculous should they indeed set the buyout to $3 mil. The question is how much would it cost for the club to go out and sign someone to the club for the next three years who not only plays at the same level as Valanciunas but has the same upside. The NBA has clearly established the market rate for you to see by being willing to offer Valanciunas 120% of the rookie scale suggestion for a #3-10 pick. How do you suppose it would cost Rytas less than $3 mil to fully replace Valanciunas' services if there's a league willing to offer way more than that? Look at how much the Euroleague had to offer Childress and other mediocre players like him, and you'll see they're not exactly dealing with chicken scratch.
TL;DR: When U.S. courts deal with contract breach, it's always in terms of putting the breached against party back in the position they would have been in had the breaching party not breached. Just look at the very basics of contract law. If you don't know how the market rate relates to Rytas' economic position, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Last edited by Quixotic; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 05:08 PM.
The problem I have with the euroleague is that they regularly do this. They will sign kids that are 15-16 years old. The NBA has rules against this.
People are not patents. You don't own someone because you gave them a contract to work for you. The only reason why the NBA is not poaching Euroleague talent is because there is gentlemen agreement in place. Otherwise a bunch of low life sports league would be signing players to life contracts from 3rd world countries for peanuts to potentially make money from them down the line. Anytime you deal with an international, you will have to grease some cigar smoking low life.
Lots of these crappy contracts exists already, but the NBA ignores them. The Euroleague contracts are respected for diplomatic reasons, but even these contracts reak of impropriety (to me), and abuse of power. The sports league should be making money of playing sports, not saddling players into contracts that make them their property for sale to other clubs.
The reason the NBA, or the NHL, would not do anything about a case that was the reverse of this, is because we pay our players FAIRLY. If a player is lost to the European league, the team does not have to pay out the rest of the contract. They are not Mickey Mouse like the clubs in Europe.
The victim in this case is the player. You can tell me the club is a victim, but I don't buy that side of it at all - the club is an exploiter. Not only do they want to exploit, JV, they want to exploit the team that picks him. NONE of this is in the interest of Basketball or Valanciunas.
If the NBA, was not diplomatic. He could easily come and play here. They can take it to court and hold their breath for 10 years, and get laughed out of the courts on this side of the world.
Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 05:19 PM.
Patents aren't about ownership; they're about exclusive rights to something for a period of time, which is not that unlike an employment contract for someone with unique skills. Anyhow, the patent example was just to show the public policy that influences U.S. law and why the U.S. courts revolve around expectation damages.
Where is this gentleman's agreement coming from? I'd like to see one iota of proof that this isn't just an opinion.
You're entitled to your opinion re: the abuse of power, as long as you understand what I was saying about U.S. contract law being about expectation damages and not mere reliance damages, which applies when no contract exists. (Reliance damages = how much was actually invested; Expectation damages = how much they would have gained.)
Last edited by Quixotic; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 05:23 PM.
Contracts like these are not enforceable, they require gentleman's agreements. Contracts signed in other jurisdictions need to be enforced in those jurisdictions.
The contract law of Russia, or some European countries does not always match up with our contract law. The divide can only be settled through mediation and arbitrators.
What stops me from giving contracts to immigrants from China to work in my rub and tug? Or my strip joint? "Look sir, she signed right here, I have her for 5 years, because I gave her boat money and lodging. My investment and expectations have not yet been fulfilled."
(If JV was actually paid a decent wage, I would give more footing to the club, but it does not look like they wanted to put their money into where their mouths are now - and that should be looked at as THE MAIN point of contention for how much the club VALUED one of their own players)
A good lawyer in NA would cut this case into pieces.
Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 05:33 PM.
I did some searching... so that there is more here than just our opinions on this matter.
Here is a legal Analysis of the European Contract System:
Legal analysis of the Euroleague “Uniform Player Contract”
Italy, Germany, Israel
According to Italian law and the Collective Bargaining Contract between the professional players and the LEGA A enforced in Italy, all the directives, rules and sanctions that the player shall submit, must be provided and established by agreements made between Clubs and Players’ Associations.
According to Italian Law the professional player’s salary has to be mentioned in a standard contract established by the LEGA A and the players Association It must be deposited in League’s , player association’s and Federation’s offices. Any other agreement is invalid.
According to collective bargaining agreement in Italy all medical expenses related to an illness or injury that the player may suffer must be borne entirely by the Club.
According to collective bargaining agreement in Italy, it is compulsory that every player must submit to a medical test before signing the personal contract: the club has the right to check the player’s condition and after certifying to the health of the player the club must bear the risk of eventual injury even previous, unless intentionally hidden by the player. In case of non- job related injury or illness; the Club may not break the contract without gross negligence on the part of the player.
According to collective agreement in Italy, the player exclusively entitled to the use of his own image, except during the game action. The player may take part in radio or TV programs, participate in public appearances, permit his picture to be taken or give an interview, except in some exceptional cases (for limited time) in which the club can demonstrate an extraordinary need. The player may also sponsor commercial products, except products in direct competition with a club’s sponsors.
According to the collective bargaining agreement in Italy, disciplinary sanctions on players follow a specific and gradual scale that if not respected render the sanctions invalid. The regulation provided by the Euroleague draft is generic and submits the player to the will (or potential abuse) of and by the Clubs, in conflict with the common labor law.
According to Italian common law only the personal contract of between a professional player who signs a standard contract, approved by professional League and player’s association, is valid. Any other contract is invalid. According to the common Italian law, the professional League and player’s association can establish an arbitration committee for the resolution of disputes and this committee must have its legal seat in Italy.
According to Italian common law, a labor contract cannot contain clauses that limit the professional freedom of sportsman for the period following the termination of the same contract. The obligation to pay an indemnity to the club of the origin is unlawful.
The draft Euroleague Standard Player contract contains many clauses that are to the clear disadvantage of the player. Under German law, the labor court has the right to determine the validity of individual clauses in a labor contract. The excerpts below are examples of invalid clauses under German law.
Only in a Collective Agreement can exemptions be made. Currently, there is no Collective Agreement between the BBL and the players.
This clause is unclear and is to the disadvantage of the player. A general statement does not suffice to override an individual work contract. To be valid, players must have a chance to reveiw all regulations and rules that apply to them.
Costs for medical tests and therapy that are in the interest of the employer and are not paid for by insurance must be paid by the employer.
According to German law, the employment relationship between player and team includes being part of the social insurance system. Part of this requirement is the State Health Insurance (at certain income levels the player has the right to privately insure himself). The origin of an illness and injury (sport related or not) is not recognized by German Law.
This clause is too general and could be to the disadvantage of the player. A player can only make declarations over health issues that are known to him. This formulation would make players liable for their physical condition.
Under German law, a conditional labor contract is only allowed for a maximum of 6 months. There must be a clear deadline under which the medical and physical tests are to be conducted. The formlation under 6.3. a-c is too general and to the disadvantage of the player.
Under German law there is only the possiblity to end a contract based on the law, where certain standards must be met. This clause is to the clear disadvantage of the player, in that the labor contract defines the reasons for the ending of the contract. Therefore, this clause is invalid.
This clause is to the clear disadvantage of the player and is not legal under German law. Each individual case must be judged on its own merits (whether a long term illness or injury would lead to an ending of the contract). Under German law the origin of the illness or injury, the length of the labor relationship and the time left on the contract all are important factors.
The legal grounds for ending the contract must be based in German law. This clause is to the clear disadvantage to the player, in that a determination of guilt based on the doping rules defines a ground for ending the contract. In German law each case must be judged on it’s own merits.
Under German law it is not legal to limit access to the German Labor Court.
Under German law, the clause too general and therefore invalid.
The opportunity for the team to end the contract to their benefit is too general and weakens the legal protections of the player under German law. It is therefore invalid.
This clause injures the personal rights of the player and is invalid.
Under German law, an employee has 3 weeks to appeal the cancelling of his labor contract otherwise the cancellation will be valid. The arbitration process described would not alter this requirement and therefore would limit a players ability to access the labor court due to the length of the proceedings.
The player’s obligations according to the Draft may coincide with his other obligations in the local league and the national team; the “player’s activities and duties” in clause 2 of the draft and “the team’s duties: compensation and expenses” in clause 4 of the draft are not compatible with the version of the standard contract that applies to Israeli players according to the union codes' directions.
Contrary to the definition in the draft, the basketball season starts in August and ends in June each year.
The Player’s Association and the players themselves are not familiar with all of the directives, rule and sanctions established by the Euroleague/ULEB. The player cannot commit himself to fulfill directives, rules and sanctions to which he is not aware, especially if they contradict local contracts and conventions.
According to Israeli law, not only do local collective bargaining agreements overcome the contract, but also collective arrangements, codes, personal contracts and internal rules and procedures that benefit the player.
According to Israeli codes, the Team bears the costs of all medical tests and therapies; According to Israeli law, a player’s previous injury does not constitute grounds for termination of the contract; Termination of the contract has to be conditioned upon disability insurance (and not a singular monetary compensation).
Clauses 7, 8 and 11.4.
Temporary suspension of a player or termination of a player’s contract in the team in a case of drug use - and in fact any disciplinary matter - are settled in the Uniform Disciplinary Code, verified by the Israeli Basketball Federation. The directions of this Code overcome the Contract.
The league administration has contracts with sponsors, and so does the Federation (regarding national team players), some of which are exclusive. The Player’s Association and the administration have a contract with a card producing company, in which there is a commitment to exclusiveness. The directions in this clause may cause a breach of these contracts.
The right to notify of a breach of contract following a failure or default in the payments to the player is also given, according to Israeli law, to the Players’ Union (and not only to the player himself). According to Israeli law, only labor courts have the jurisdiction over claims regarding holdover or delay of salary and this matter is not a matter for arbitration. Thus, this clause contradicts Israeli law. Moreover, Clause 11.5 (obligating weight loss in a short period of time) is unconstitutional!
According to Israeli law, there is no arbitration obligation in matters concerning legal rights (but only in matters stemming from contracts). Anyway – holding arbitrations in Switzerland or in Spain places an unduly burden both on the players and on the teams.
According to Israeli law it is not possible to fine a player unless it was determined so in a collective bargaining agreement; In any way, the fine imposed on a player shall he play with any non-European basketball club is non-proportionate and constitutes an infringement of his constitutional freedom of occupation.
So even within different European jurisdictions, it is acknowledged that these contracts are often "TO the DISADVANTAGE" of the player. This is not just my opinion.
Here is another story looking at this:
Here are more examples of their contract LAWS working against players, and them ignoring terms for their own benefits and purpose.Euroleague’s outrageous contracts
Euroleague is trying to keep the Bargnanis, Dirks, and Gasols out of the NBA. Is this fair?
By Nadav Mor
Taxation without Representation – Europe’s attempt to close its borders
According to press reports in Europe, the Euroleague, in an attempt to stop the migration of young European players to the NBA, has been forcing its players to sign outrageous contracts, with stipulations and clauses that make a leaving Europe to play in the NBA as difficult as ever.
The most significant clause states that any player under the age of 24, wishing to play in an organization not part of Europe’s governing basketball body, ULEB, basically meaning the NBA, will have to pay his team € 1.5 Mil. ($1,939,200). The Euroleague’s stipulation does state that only of the player’s new contract in significantly higher than his old contract, must he pay the fine. However, most young players in Europe get paid very little money, compared to contracts in the L, meaning any contract in the NBA would automatically be significantly higher than the European contract. Furthermore, most European 20 year olds don’t have an extra €1.5 Mil lying around. I don’t.
Other lowlights include:
-A team may terminate a player’s contract if he’s injured, and pay him only half of the sum he was due, until the moment of the injury. Allan Houston and Big Country are smiling.
-A player under contract wanting to leave to play in the NBA will have to pay a minimum fine of, € 1 Mil.
-A player who gains weight will be warned. If he does not lose the weight within 15 days, he will be fined 5% of his salary. Et tu Boris?
Interestingly enough, in Spain, CEO of Euroleague Basketball Jordi Bertomeu’s home country, players refused to sign the contracts. The European player’s union is also starting a public campaign against the new contracts. The new contracts make it difficult, as if it wasn’t already, for American players to go back to the NBA after a few years in Europe. Furthermore, will this put an end to European ballers coming over to the NBA? One wonders if the Sternbot put the Euroleague up to this, because along with the minimum age rule in the NBA, the Euroleague contracts emphasize players’ maturity and experience when they come to the NBA. Sure, under the new contract,, situations like Darko (and Andrea?) would never happen, but what about Dirk, TP, Pau and AK47? On the flip side, doesn’t the Euroleague have a right to protect itself from players leaving to the NBA? But at what expense? Should they hinder the professional careers of their players?
Every loss in Europe is treated like a tragedy for the entire week until the teams suit up again—certainly a far cry from the AAU type settings Jennings is accustomed to where teams often don’t even have to wait for more than a few hours before forgetting everything and hitting the court again. 2-3 consecutive losses in Europe usually lead to a variety of reactions coming from sponsors, the front office and the often incredibly negative media—causing the coach’s seat to heat up, the paychecks to arrive a little bit later (or not at all), and even players getting cut for imaginary “breach of contracts.”
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...#ixzz1ORex8xHp“There are some situations where they’re only paying the foreign players on time, and the domestic players are being asked to kind of understand the situation and get paid in due time,” said Bryan Colangelo, the Toronto Raptors’ general manager. “And then there’s some situations that might even be worse than that.”
Read more: http://www.48minutesofhell.com/carlo...#ixzz1ORgIa600
So forgive me if I have very little respect for Euroleague contracts. It's not just my opinion, this opinion is shared by many. Including Euroleague players themselves.
Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 06:31 PM.
You do realize that foreign contracts are usually respected by U.S. law not because of some fictional gentleman's agreement, but the concept of comity? Yes, there are times when the U.S. courts will not respect a foreign judgement, but only when it is something so clearly foul that it would offend public opinion (i.e. something that is constitutionally protected here but violated elsewhere). I don't know what Valanciunas' actual salary was, but even if we go by your estimate, I don't think U.S. courts would find a contract that grants a salary in Lithuania that is 5-6 times Lithuania's average salary to be that repulsive.
1. Your scenario is completely different from Valanciunas' scenario. Yours doesn't involve tortious interference AT ALL, but merely what you would be entitled to if your employees decided to quit their jobs. As I said before, Valanciunas can quit his job all he wants, and the U.S. courts would not force him to pay a buyout fee just to quit, but if he joins the NBA right after, his club will likely have a tortious interference claim or some other legal argument that will either result in an injunction preventing him from employment in the NBA, or will require the NBA or his NBA team to pay Rytas an amount equal to however much it will cost Rytas to employ someone of Valanciunas' ability and upside for the next three years, which might even exceed the buyout amount had they simply played nice.
2. Immigration law isn't my specialty, but I'm going to guess you're likely to have trouble applying for work visas for your sweatshop importees. As you may or may not know, U.S. work visas are limited in number per year, and they each have specific requirements. I wonder how you're going to get non-immigrant work visas for all those Chinese workers, or how you're going to get them IMMIGRATION visas. Likely, you'll have to do something illegal so that will probably be your answer right there.
3. You're completely mistaken on what EXPECTATION DAMAGES are. The U.S. court couldn't care less what YOU say you expected. The cool thing about U.S. contract law is it doesn't attempt to keep people from breaching contracts. Instead, U.S. contract law basically says, "you can breach if it's in your interest, but you will be responsible for damages." If assuming you managed to somehow get all your workers legal work/immigration visas, and you bring suit to recover for your "investment and expectation," the court is going to award you reasonable costs to put you back in the same economic position as you were before, which very well might be nothing more than the cost to bring them over and get them papers. Why? Because your silly scenario decided to pick unskilled labor for the comparison! Since you obviously had to pay them at least minimum wage and offer decent conditions or violate yet another bunch of laws, it won't be that difficult for you to find replacement unskilled labor from the U.S.
4. Oh yes, paying what was it that you said ($50-60k, assuming you're even correct on this amount) to a teenager with no professional basketball experience is SO indecent. What would the NBA have been willing to pay? Nothing? Exactly.
Explain to me why it is that I have to provide my resume for my opinions and you do not? What does me residing in Streetsville have to do with it? Honestly? How do you know I am in Streetsville? Maybe my mom doesn't love me, why don't you ask me for proof?
I have posted articles and examples that show Euroleague contracts have many faults, and that their own players unions are far from pleased with them. My contention about JV's contract is real. I think it is HORRIBLE, and my LAW training is minimal. (Yes I have some, from business school.)
Anyway, its too nice a day to be wasting time on this issue... I think the JV's contract is EXPLOITATIVE and not worth the paper its written on. I think the Eurolegue is a bush league. All these are my opinions and I don't need to provide my resume to express them.
(BTW is New York supposed to be better than Streetsville? Why did you even mention it?)
EDIT: AT no point have I said I am a lawyer and this is legal advice, I simply used logic and reason to state why I think this deal is exploitative. Maybe the thread should have an asterisks that states only lawyers should reply, but it did not. Or a stipulation that you must post your resume if you want to respond or some other such nonsense... anyway, dude, you have been following me around on these forums, and I have no idea why.
BTW Streetsville ROCKS!
Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 06:54 PM.
My main issue is with your complete guesswork of how the U.S. legal system works. I obviously am not going to pretend I have the entire legal framework inside my head, nor do I have the authority of the U.S. Supreme Court. But from the little I know, I know your knowledge of the U.S. legal system is even more lacking.
Again, you are being a dick, and you know nothing about me. You are one hell of an egotistical dude, to make this sort of all encompassing conclusion from this thread. (The whole US legal system? lol)
You keep repeating that you know nothing, over and over again, but you come to an extreme conclusions about my knowledge. Your false humility is just that.
EDIT: As for my resume, I clean the toilets at McDonald's, if I do a good job the manager will let me work the fryer. In my spare time I practice contract law on sports forums.
Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 07:11 PM.
I don't know why you keep feeling the need to state your opinion again. I already acknowledged that I wasn't arguing with you about them. I think it's rather nice to be earning so much so young, and you think otherwise. That's fine. I was only calling you out on pretending to know anything about U.S. law (unless you want to continue this song and dance that you might have credible legal knowledge).
Did I say NYC > Streetsville? =P I do think NYC is the second best city in the world (after Toronto), but that's another story.
Following you? Don't be paranoid. You do realize the posts get a bit slow around here so forgive me if I replied to your two posts when nothing else was being bumped up before we got into this fun little "legal" debate.
So what is with the insults?(unless you want to continue this song and dance that you might have credible legal knowledge).
Is this where I am supposed to come out and say I am total moron that walks into trees, I have no understanding of laws and the world, its all extremely confusing?
This is my last post. Don't be surprised if I don't reply again, and don't be surprised if I reply to another post by you on another topic. If you said I know nothing about medicine, even though I didn't provide any evidence leading to that conclusion, I wouldn't be the least bit offended and self-righteous.
Have a good day anyway.
Last edited by Quixotic; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 07:18 PM.
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