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Valanciunas' Buyout To Be Raised To At Least $3M

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  • #31
    MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
    The problem I have with the euroleague is that they regularly do this. They will sign kids that are 15-16 years old. The NBA has rules against this.


    People are not patents. You don't own someone because you gave them a contract to work for you. The only reason why the NBA is not poaching Euroleague talent is because there is gentlemen agreement in place. Otherwise a bunch of low life sports league would be signing players to life contracts from 3rd world countries for peanuts to potentially make money from them down the line.

    Lots of these crappy contracts exists already, but the NBA ignores them. The Euroleague contracts are respected for diplomatic reasons, but even these contracts reak to me of impropriety, and abuse of power.
    The NBA does have rules against it but is it really to benefit the kids and not the NCAA?

    Patents aren't about ownership; they're about exclusive rights to something for a period of time, which is not that unlike an employment contract for someone with unique skills. Anyhow, the patent example was just to show the public policy that influences U.S. law and why the U.S. courts revolve around expectation damages.

    Where is this gentleman's agreement coming from? I'd like to see one iota of proof that this isn't just an opinion.

    You're entitled to your opinion re: the abuse of power, as long as you understand what I was saying about U.S. contract law being about expectation damages and not mere reliance damages, which applies when no contract exists. (Reliance damages = how much was actually invested; Expectation damages = how much they would have gained.)
    Last edited by Quixotic; Sun Jun 5, 2011, 06:23 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Contracts like these are not enforceable, they require gentleman's agreements. Contracts signed in other jurisdictions need to be enforced in those jurisdictions.

      The contract law of Russia, or some European countries does not always match up with our contract law. The divide can only be settled through mediation and arbitrators.


      What stops me from giving contracts to immigrants from China to work in my rub and tug? Or my strip joint? "Look sir, she signed right here, I have her for 5 years, because I gave her boat money and lodging. My investment and expectations have not yet been fulfilled."


      (If JV was actually paid a decent wage, I would give more footing to the club, but it does not look like they wanted to put their money into where their mouths are now - and that should be looked at as THE MAIN point of contention for how much the club VALUED one of their own players)


      A good lawyer in NA would cut this case into pieces.
      Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5, 2011, 06:33 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        I did some searching... so that there is more here than just our opinions on this matter.

        Here is a legal Analysis of the European Contract System:

        http://www.giba.it/index.php/ube/42-ube/351

        Legal analysis of the Euroleague “Uniform Player Contract”

        Italy, Germany, Israel


        1.1. Italy

        Clause 2.2

        According to Italian law and the Collective Bargaining Contract between the professional players and the LEGA A enforced in Italy, all the directives, rules and sanctions that the player shall submit, must be provided and established by agreements made between Clubs and Players’ Associations.

        Clause 4.

        According to Italian Law the professional player’s salary has to be mentioned in a standard contract established by the LEGA A and the players Association It must be deposited in League’s , player association’s and Federation’s offices. Any other agreement is invalid.

        Clause 5.

        According to collective bargaining agreement in Italy all medical expenses related to an illness or injury that the player may suffer must be borne entirely by the Club.

        Clause 6.

        According to collective bargaining agreement in Italy, it is compulsory that every player must submit to a medical test before signing the personal contract: the club has the right to check the player’s condition and after certifying to the health of the player the club must bear the risk of eventual injury even previous, unless intentionally hidden by the player. In case of non- job related injury or illness; the Club may not break the contract without gross negligence on the part of the player.

        Clause 9.

        According to collective agreement in Italy, the player exclusively entitled to the use of his own image, except during the game action. The player may take part in radio or TV programs, participate in public appearances, permit his picture to be taken or give an interview, except in some exceptional cases (for limited time) in which the club can demonstrate an extraordinary need. The player may also sponsor commercial products, except products in direct competition with a club’s sponsors.

        Clause 10.

        According to the collective bargaining agreement in Italy, disciplinary sanctions on players follow a specific and gradual scale that if not respected render the sanctions invalid. The regulation provided by the Euroleague draft is generic and submits the player to the will (or potential abuse) of and by the Clubs, in conflict with the common labor law.

        Clause 13.

        According to Italian common law only the personal contract of between a professional player who signs a standard contract, approved by professional League and player’s association, is valid. Any other contract is invalid. According to the common Italian law, the professional League and player’s association can establish an arbitration committee for the resolution of disputes and this committee must have its legal seat in Italy.

        Clause 15.

        According to Italian common law, a labor contract cannot contain clauses that limit the professional freedom of sportsman for the period following the termination of the same contract. The obligation to pay an indemnity to the club of the origin is unlawful.

        1.2. Germany

        Overview:

        The draft Euroleague Standard Player contract contains many clauses that are to the clear disadvantage of the player. Under German law, the labor court has the right to determine the validity of individual clauses in a labor contract. The excerpts below are examples of invalid clauses under German law.

        Only in a Collective Agreement can exemptions be made. Currently, there is no Collective Agreement between the BBL and the players.

        Clause 2.2.

        This clause is unclear and is to the disadvantage of the player. A general statement does not suffice to override an individual work contract. To be valid, players must have a chance to reveiw all regulations and rules that apply to them.

        Clause 5.2.

        Costs for medical tests and therapy that are in the interest of the employer and are not paid for by insurance must be paid by the employer.

        Clause 5.3.

        According to German law, the employment relationship between player and team includes being part of the social insurance system. Part of this requirement is the State Health Insurance (at certain income levels the player has the right to privately insure himself). The origin of an illness and injury (sport related or not) is not recognized by German Law.

        Clause 6.1.

        This clause is too general and could be to the disadvantage of the player. A player can only make declarations over health issues that are known to him. This formulation would make players liable for their physical condition.

        Clause 6.2.

        Under German law, a conditional labor contract is only allowed for a maximum of 6 months. There must be a clear deadline under which the medical and physical tests are to be conducted. The formlation under 6.3. a-c is too general and to the disadvantage of the player.

        Clause 6.8.

        Under German law there is only the possiblity to end a contract based on the law, where certain standards must be met. This clause is to the clear disadvantage of the player, in that the labor contract defines the reasons for the ending of the contract. Therefore, this clause is invalid.

        Clause 6.9.

        This clause is to the clear disadvantage of the player and is not legal under German law. Each individual case must be judged on its own merits (whether a long term illness or injury would lead to an ending of the contract). Under German law the origin of the illness or injury, the length of the labor relationship and the time left on the contract all are important factors.

        Clause 7.2.

        The legal grounds for ending the contract must be based in German law. This clause is to the clear disadvantage to the player, in that a determination of guilt based on the doping rules defines a ground for ending the contract. In German law each case must be judged on it’s own merits.

        Clause 11.1.

        Under German law it is not legal to limit access to the German Labor Court.

        Clause 11.3.

        Under German law, the clause too general and therefore invalid.

        Clause 11.4.

        The opportunity for the team to end the contract to their benefit is too general and weakens the legal protections of the player under German law. It is therefore invalid.

        Clause 11.5.

        This clause injures the personal rights of the player and is invalid.

        Clause13.0.

        Under German law, an employee has 3 weeks to appeal the cancelling of his labor contract otherwise the cancellation will be valid. The arbitration process described would not alter this requirement and therefore would limit a players ability to access the labor court due to the length of the proceedings.


        1.3. Israel:

        Overview:

        The player’s obligations according to the Draft may coincide with his other obligations in the local league and the national team; the “player’s activities and duties” in clause 2 of the draft and “the team’s duties: compensation and expenses” in clause 4 of the draft are not compatible with the version of the standard contract that applies to Israeli players according to the union codes' directions.

        Contrary to the definition in the draft, the basketball season starts in August and ends in June each year.

        Clause 2.2.

        The Player’s Association and the players themselves are not familiar with all of the directives, rule and sanctions established by the Euroleague/ULEB. The player cannot commit himself to fulfill directives, rules and sanctions to which he is not aware, especially if they contradict local contracts and conventions.

        Clause 3.

        According to Israeli law, not only do local collective bargaining agreements overcome the contract, but also collective arrangements, codes, personal contracts and internal rules and procedures that benefit the player.

        Clauses 5-6.

        According to Israeli codes, the Team bears the costs of all medical tests and therapies; According to Israeli law, a player’s previous injury does not constitute grounds for termination of the contract; Termination of the contract has to be conditioned upon disability insurance (and not a singular monetary compensation).

        Clauses 7, 8 and 11.4.

        Temporary suspension of a player or termination of a player’s contract in the team in a case of drug use - and in fact any disciplinary matter - are settled in the Uniform Disciplinary Code, verified by the Israeli Basketball Federation. The directions of this Code overcome the Contract.

        Clause 9.

        The league administration has contracts with sponsors, and so does the Federation (regarding national team players), some of which are exclusive. The Player’s Association and the administration have a contract with a card producing company, in which there is a commitment to exclusiveness. The directions in this clause may cause a breach of these contracts.

        Clause 11.

        The right to notify of a breach of contract following a failure or default in the payments to the player is also given, according to Israeli law, to the Players’ Union (and not only to the player himself). According to Israeli law, only labor courts have the jurisdiction over claims regarding holdover or delay of salary and this matter is not a matter for arbitration. Thus, this clause contradicts Israeli law. Moreover, Clause 11.5 (obligating weight loss in a short period of time) is unconstitutional!

        Clause 13.

        According to Israeli law, there is no arbitration obligation in matters concerning legal rights (but only in matters stemming from contracts). Anyway – holding arbitrations in Switzerland or in Spain places an unduly burden both on the players and on the teams.

        Clause 15.

        According to Israeli law it is not possible to fine a player unless it was determined so in a collective bargaining agreement; In any way, the fine imposed on a player shall he play with any non-European basketball club is non-proportionate and constitutes an infringement of his constitutional freedom of occupation.

        So even within different European jurisdictions, it is acknowledged that these contracts are often "TO the DISADVANTAGE" of the player. This is not just my opinion.


        Here is another story looking at this:

        http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba...ous-contracts/

        Euroleague’s outrageous contracts

        Euroleague is trying to keep the Bargnanis, Dirks, and Gasols out of the NBA. Is this fair?

        By Nadav Mor

        Taxation without Representation – Europe’s attempt to close its borders

        According to press reports in Europe, the Euroleague, in an attempt to stop the migration of young European players to the NBA, has been forcing its players to sign outrageous contracts, with stipulations and clauses that make a leaving Europe to play in the NBA as difficult as ever.

        The most significant clause states that any player under the age of 24, wishing to play in an organization not part of Europe’s governing basketball body, ULEB, basically meaning the NBA, will have to pay his team € 1.5 Mil. ($1,939,200). The Euroleague’s stipulation does state that only of the player’s new contract in significantly higher than his old contract, must he pay the fine. However, most young players in Europe get paid very little money, compared to contracts in the L, meaning any contract in the NBA would automatically be significantly higher than the European contract. Furthermore, most European 20 year olds don’t have an extra €1.5 Mil lying around. I don’t.

        Other lowlights include:

        -A team may terminate a player’s contract if he’s injured, and pay him only half of the sum he was due, until the moment of the injury. Allan Houston and Big Country are smiling.

        -A player under contract wanting to leave to play in the NBA will have to pay a minimum fine of, € 1 Mil.

        -A player who gains weight will be warned. If he does not lose the weight within 15 days, he will be fined 5% of his salary. Et tu Boris?

        Interestingly enough, in Spain, CEO of Euroleague Basketball Jordi Bertomeu’s home country, players refused to sign the contracts. The European player’s union is also starting a public campaign against the new contracts. The new contracts make it difficult, as if it wasn’t already, for American players to go back to the NBA after a few years in Europe. Furthermore, will this put an end to European ballers coming over to the NBA? One wonders if the Sternbot put the Euroleague up to this, because along with the minimum age rule in the NBA, the Euroleague contracts emphasize players’ maturity and experience when they come to the NBA. Sure, under the new contract,, situations like Darko (and Andrea?) would never happen, but what about Dirk, TP, Pau and AK47? On the flip side, doesn’t the Euroleague have a right to protect itself from players leaving to the NBA? But at what expense? Should they hinder the professional careers of their players?
        Here are more examples of their contract LAWS working against players, and them ignoring terms for their own benefits and purpose.

        Every loss in Europe is treated like a tragedy for the entire week until the teams suit up again—certainly a far cry from the AAU type settings Jennings is accustomed to where teams often don’t even have to wait for more than a few hours before forgetting everything and hitting the court again. 2-3 consecutive losses in Europe usually lead to a variety of reactions coming from sponsors, the front office and the often incredibly negative media—causing the coach’s seat to heat up, the paychecks to arrive a little bit later (or not at all), and even players getting cut for imaginary “breach of contracts.”

        From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...#ixzz1ORex8xHp
        There are some situations where they’re only paying the foreign players on time, and the domestic players are being asked to kind of understand the situation and get paid in due time,” said Bryan Colangelo, the Toronto Raptors’ general manager. “And then there’s some situations that might even be worse than that.

        Read more: http://www.48minutesofhell.com/carlo...#ixzz1ORgIa600

        So forgive me if I have very little respect for Euroleague contracts. It's not just my opinion, this opinion is shared by many. Including Euroleague players themselves.
        Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5, 2011, 07:31 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
          Contracts like these are not enforceable, they require gentleman's agreements. Contracts signed in other jurisdictions need to be enforced in those jurisdictions.

          The contract law of Russia, or some European countries does not always match up with our contract law. The divide can only be settled through mediation and arbitrators.
          Are you speaking from some basis of knowledge in U.S. law? Just wondering. Not to be rude or anything, but I'd rather be debating this if you have actual knowledge and not just speculation or out of knowledge re: Canadian law. I do say in advance if I'm fuzzy on something (e.g. I have absolutely no clue about how this would work in Canada), and I'm wondering because you mention "our contract law" but I take it you live in Streetsville, Ontario?

          You do realize that foreign contracts are usually respected by U.S. law not because of some fictional gentleman's agreement, but the concept of comity? Yes, there are times when the U.S. courts will not respect a foreign judgement, but only when it is something so clearly foul that it would offend public opinion (i.e. something that is constitutionally protected here but violated elsewhere). I don't know what Valanciunas' actual salary was, but even if we go by your estimate, I don't think U.S. courts would find a contract that grants a salary in Lithuania that is 5-6 times Lithuania's average salary to be that repulsive.


          MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
          What stops me from giving contracts to immigrants from China to work in my rub and tug? Or my strip joint? "Look sir, she signed right here, I have her for 5 years, because I gave her boat money and lodging. My investment and expectations have not yet been fulfilled."

          (If JV was actually paid a decent wage, I would give more footing to the club, but it does not look like they wanted to put their money into where their mouths are now - and that should be looked at as THE MAIN point of contention for how much the club VALUED one of their own players)

          A good lawyer in NA would cut this case into pieces.
          I can see that you don't have much of a U.S.legal background from your scenario. You're right that a [U.S.] lawyer would cut your case into pieces, but not because of what you might think. Let's see here:

          1. Your scenario is completely different from Valanciunas' scenario. Yours doesn't involve tortious interference AT ALL, but merely what you would be entitled to if your employees decided to quit their jobs. As I said before, Valanciunas can quit his job all he wants, and the U.S. courts would not force him to pay a buyout fee just to quit, but if he joins the NBA right after, his club will likely have a tortious interference claim or some other legal argument that will either result in an injunction preventing him from employment in the NBA, or will require the NBA or his NBA team to pay Rytas an amount equal to however much it will cost Rytas to employ someone of Valanciunas' ability and upside for the next three years, which might even exceed the buyout amount had they simply played nice.

          2. Immigration law isn't my specialty, but I'm going to guess you're likely to have trouble applying for work visas for your sweatshop importees. As you may or may not know, U.S. work visas are limited in number per year, and they each have specific requirements. I wonder how you're going to get non-immigrant work visas for all those Chinese workers, or how you're going to get them IMMIGRATION visas. Likely, you'll have to do something illegal so that will probably be your answer right there.

          3. You're completely mistaken on what EXPECTATION DAMAGES are. The U.S. court couldn't care less what YOU say you expected. The cool thing about U.S. contract law is it doesn't attempt to keep people from breaching contracts. Instead, U.S. contract law basically says, "you can breach if it's in your interest, but you will be responsible for damages." If assuming you managed to somehow get all your workers legal work/immigration visas, and you bring suit to recover for your "investment and expectation," the court is going to award you reasonable costs to put you back in the same economic position as you were before, which very well might be nothing more than the cost to bring them over and get them papers. Why? Because your silly scenario decided to pick unskilled labor for the comparison! Since you obviously had to pay them at least minimum wage and offer decent conditions or violate yet another bunch of laws, it won't be that difficult for you to find replacement unskilled labor from the U.S.

          4. Oh yes, paying what was it that you said ($50-60k, assuming you're even correct on this amount) to a teenager with no professional basketball experience is SO indecent. What would the NBA have been willing to pay? Nothing? Exactly.

          Comment


          • #35
            Explain to me why it is that I have to provide my resume for my opinions and you do not? What does me residing in Streetsville have to do with it? Honestly? How do you know I am in Streetsville? Maybe my mom doesn't love me, why don't you ask me for proof?


            I have posted articles and examples that show Euroleague contracts have many faults, and that their own players unions are far from pleased with them. My contention about JV's contract is real. I think it is HORRIBLE, and my LAW training is minimal. (Yes I have some, from business school.)

            Anyway, its too nice a day to be wasting time on this issue... I think the JV's contract is EXPLOITATIVE and not worth the paper its written on. I think the Eurolegue is a bush league. All these are my opinions and I don't need to provide my resume to express them.


            (BTW is New York supposed to be better than Streetsville? Why did you even mention it?)


            EDIT: AT no point have I said I am a lawyer and this is legal advice, I simply used logic and reason to state why I think this deal is exploitative. Maybe the thread should have an asterisks that states only lawyers should reply, but it did not. Or a stipulation that you must post your resume if you want to respond or some other such nonsense... anyway, dude, you have been following me around on these forums, and I have no idea why.

            BTW Streetsville ROCKS!
            Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5, 2011, 07:54 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
              I did some searching... so that there is more here than just our opinions on this matter.

              Here is a legal Analysis of the European Contract System:

              http://www.giba.it/index.php/ube/42-ube/351

              Legal analysis of the Euroleague “Uniform Player Contract”




              So even within different European jurisdictions, it is acknowledged that these contracts are often "TO the DISADVANTAGE" of the player. This is not just my opinion.


              Here is another story looking at this:

              http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba...ous-contracts/



              Here are more examples of their contract LAWS working against players, and them ignoring terms for their own benefits and purpose.






              So forgive me if I have very little respect for Euroleague contracts. It's not just my opinion, this opinion is shared by many. Including Euroleague players themselves.
              I think I said above somewhere that you're entitled to your opinion of "abuse of power", just as whoever wrote these things you linked are also entitled to their "opinion" re: the contracts under the Israeli, German and Italian legal jurisdictions. I'm going to save you the work and assume that someone somewhere has written a similar "legal analysis" opinion on how the Euroleague contracts offend Lithuanian law. I have no idea how European legal systems operate, and I am willing to assume that they certainly aren't anywhere as credible as the U.S. legal system. If you wish to criticize the way European courts are powerless to administer justice in the area of contract law, feel free.

              My main issue is with your complete guesswork of how the U.S. legal system works. I obviously am not going to pretend I have the entire legal framework inside my head, nor do I have the authority of the U.S. Supreme Court. But from the little I know, I know your knowledge of the U.S. legal system is even more lacking.

              Comment


              • #37
                Quixotic wrote: View Post
                I think I said above somewhere that you're entitled to your opinion of "abuse of power", just as whoever wrote these things you linked are also entitled to their "opinion" re: the contracts under the Israeli, German and Italian legal jurisdictions. I'm going to save you the work and assume that someone somewhere has written a similar "legal analysis" opinion on how the Euroleague contracts offend Lithuanian law. I have no idea how European legal systems operate, and I am willing to assume that they certainly aren't anywhere as credible as the U.S. legal system. If you wish to criticize the way European courts are powerless to administer justice in the area of contract law, feel free.

                My main issue is with your complete guesswork of how the U.S. legal system works. I obviously am not going to pretend I have the entire legal framework inside my head, nor do I have the authority of the U.S. Supreme Court. But from the little I know, I know your knowledge of the U.S. legal system is even more lacking.

                Again, you are being a dick, and you know nothing about me. You are one hell of an egotistical dude, to make this sort of all encompassing conclusion from this thread. (The whole US legal system? lol)


                You keep repeating that you know nothing, over and over again, but you come to an extreme conclusions about my knowledge. Your false humility is just that.


                EDIT: As for my resume, I clean the toilets at McDonald's, if I do a good job the manager will let me work the fryer. In my spare time I practice contract law on sports forums.
                Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5, 2011, 08:11 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
                  Explain to me why it is that I have to provide my resume for my opinions and you do not? What does me residing in Streetsville have to do with it? Honestly? How do you know I am in Streetsville? Maybe my mom doesn't love me, why don't you ask me for proof?


                  I have posted articles and examples that show Euroleague contracts have many faults, and that their own players unions are far from pleased with them. My contention about JV's contract is real. I think it is HORRIBLE, and my LAW training is minimal. (Yes I have some, from business school.)

                  Anyway, its too nice a day to be wasting time on this issue... I think the JV's contract is EXPLOITATIVE and not worth the paper its written on. I think the Eurolegue is a bush league. All these are my opinions and I don't need to provide my resume to express them.


                  (BTW is New York supposed to be better than Streetsville? Why did you even mention it?)


                  EDIT: AT no point have I said I am a lawyer and this is legal advice, I simply used logic and reason to state why I think this deal is exploitative. Maybe the thread should have an asterisks that states only lawyers should reply, but it did not. Post your resume if you want to respond or some other such nonsense... anyway, dude, you have been following me around on these forums, and I have no idea why.

                  BTW Streetsville ROCKS!
                  I didn't ask for your resume. I only asked for you to clarify that you are indeed speaking re: U.S. law and for your good word that you actually aren't speaking out of your arse. It's pointless to ask for credentials over the Internet. If I say I am a law school graduate, would you believe me? Would it mean I wasn't bad at law? Exactly.

                  I don't know why you keep feeling the need to state your opinion again. I already acknowledged that I wasn't arguing with you about them. I think it's rather nice to be earning so much so young, and you think otherwise. That's fine. I was only calling you out on pretending to know anything about U.S. law (unless you want to continue this song and dance that you might have credible legal knowledge).

                  Did I say NYC > Streetsville? =P I do think NYC is the second best city in the world (after Toronto), but that's another story.

                  Following you? Don't be paranoid. You do realize the posts get a bit slow around here so forgive me if I replied to your two posts when nothing else was being bumped up before we got into this fun little "legal" debate.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    (unless you want to continue this song and dance that you might have credible legal knowledge).
                    So what is with the insults?


                    Is this where I am supposed to come out and say I am total moron that walks into trees, I have no understanding of laws and the world, its all extremely confusing?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
                      Again, you are being a dick, and you know nothing about me. You are one hell of an egotistical dude, to make this sort of all encompassing conclusion from this thread. (The whole US legal system? lol)


                      You keep repeating that you know nothing, over and over again, but you you come to an extreme conclusions about my knowledge. Your false humility is just that.


                      EDIT: As for my resume, I clean the toilets at McDonald's, if I do a good job the manager will let me work the fryer. In my spare time I practice contract law on sports forums.
                      It's one thing to say you know nothing out of nowhere, and if I indeed was doing that, I apologize. However, when you actually proffer legal scenarios that are flawed and not legally relevant, is it really that wrong of me to judge based on that? If you say 2 + 2 = 5 and 3^3 is 6, am I not allowed to say your math knowledge is lacking? But fine, I didn't mean the entire legal system, but certainly the basics that any U.S. law student or lawyer would know.

                      This is my last post. Don't be surprised if I don't reply again, and don't be surprised if I reply to another post by you on another topic. If you said I know nothing about medicine, even though I didn't provide any evidence leading to that conclusion, I wouldn't be the least bit offended and self-righteous.

                      Have a good day anyway.
                      Last edited by Quixotic; Sun Jun 5, 2011, 08:18 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        By all means show me what is lacking about it. Don't say you don't know anything about these matters, but than insult me for my opinion. I never spoke as a lawyer, I spoke as human being that can smell a bad contract that is exploitative.

                        You think that a 50X buyout of the life term of the contract is fair, I do not.


                        international Arbitration is the only way to go in international contract law. Local jurisdictions have very little bite for enforcement. You can look this up, its not hard. The NBA teams and NHL teams could violate the terms of the Eurolegues but they don't. It is generally known in the business as both leagues respecting their territories. There will be legal ramifications if they don't. However, I would imagine... that such agreements are violated everyday with Asian leagues, African leagues... middle-eastern leagues, you only can enforce these laws if you have teeth.


                        ...and you did mention Streetsville, and there was no point to it. None. (Other than to make it personal.)

                        EDIT: I love a good debate, keep it kosher, and I will trade with you message for message. I have never once used a sentence that has insulted your intelligence, you have used many. Attack my points, not my knowledge, please.
                        Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun Jun 5, 2011, 08:38 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
                          By all means show me what is lacking about it. Don't say you don't know anything about these matters, but than insult me for my opinion. I never spoke as a lawyer, I spoke as human being that can smell a bad contract that is exploitative.

                          You think that a 50X buyout of the life term of the contract is fair, I do not.


                          international Arbitration is the only way to go in international contract law. Local jurisdictions have very little bite for enforcement. You can look this up, its not hard. The NBA teams and NHL teams could violate the terms of the Eurolegues but they don't. It is generally known in the business as both leagues respecting their territories. There will be legal ramifications if they don't. However, I would imagine... that such agreements are violated everyday with Asian leagues, African leagues... middle-eastern leagues, you only can enforce these laws if you have teeth.


                          ...and you did mention Streetsville, and there was no point to it. None. (Other than to make it personal.)

                          EDIT: I love a good debate, keep it kosher, and I will trade with you message for message. I have never once used a sentence that has insulted your intelligence, you have used many. Attack my points, not my knowledge, please.
                          Gosh, shall I reply this one last time to try and smooth over your misunderstandings?

                          But first, why are you so offended when you even admit yourself you weren't speaking as a lawyer?

                          YOU WIN on the exploitation opinion. I don't care enough about that point to argue a second extra second about it. I've said this multiple times already.

                          What is lacking about what you said? Go back and read what I wrote regarding your Chinese sweatshop example, the treatment of supposedly "unfair" contracts within the US, and how if this was an American vs American case, the court would award expectation damages and not reliance. It's ALL there. Then Google all the applicable case law and concepts. If you want to argue U.S. law, offer case law that is on point but contradicts, or draw lines to how some other seemingly unrelated concept could apply here (this is how the American legal system works). I'd be more than happy to debate legal arguments and counters in that case. I didn't say anything about your logic or common sense, except the inference that it wasn't used as the basis for U.S. law. I do tell people when their logic stinks, and this clearly wasn't one of those times.

                          Yes, I did mention Streetsville. This is a Raptors board. The Raptors are a Canadian team. Had your location been "Philadelphia", I would have assumed you were talking about U.S. law. Is it so wrong for me to see that you are not only a Raptors fan but might live in Canada, then ask you whether you are referring to U.S. law when you say "our contract law"? Is it rare for someone to be surprised that a Canadian might be referring to American law as their own? I didn't go, "AH HA, you're a dumb Streetsville Canadian, I got you now!" I said:

                          Are you speaking from some basis of knowledge in U.S. law? Just wondering. Not to be rude or anything, but I'd rather be debating this if you have actual knowledge and not just speculation or out of knowledge re: Canadian law. I do say in advance if I'm fuzzy on something (e.g. I have absolutely no clue about how this would work in Canada), and I'm wondering because you mention "our contract law" but I take it you live in Streetsville, Ontario?
                          I even relied on you for confirmation that your Streetsville was the Streetsville I was thinking of. If you are some dual-citizen Canadian/American an outright American, or if it was an American Streetsville and you were indeed referring to the U.S. law when you said "our contract law", what's the big deal?

                          And in response to your EDIT, I wasn't trying to say anything about your intelligence and I apologize profusely if it came out that way. I don't consider proper knowledge of American law to be required to be intelligent whether you're Canadian OR American, and most if not almost all Americans apply their own law incorrectly. The only thing I assumed about you was perhaps you were being stubborn in not wanting to admit your assumptions weren't backed by actual U.S. law. I'm a stubborn old mule sometimes when I get caught arguing something I have no knowledge about, so it shouldn't be that offensive if I think you are being like me. That's why I tried so hard to make it clear the parts I was guessing about (by applying what little I knew) as opposed to the parts that I wasn't. It wasn't false modesty -- just me covering my ass in case you came back at me with some vast knowledge of U.S. employment or immigration law. You didn't know that before, but now you do, so we good?

                          Yes, I admit some of my later comments were tinted with frustration. There were several occasions over the last few years where a RRer pretended to a lawyer when it was clear he wasn't (no, I'm not being egotistical in my assumption here; lawyers reason a certain way and when not one argument sounds like a lawyer's, it's a perfectly acceptable conclusion). Legal debates are fun when the other person is trying to outwit you with creative applications of precedent; not so fun when they don't even understand the information they read from Wikipedia. I know you said you aren't a lawyer, and that's fine. I was only trying to convince you that perhaps logic and common sense is insufficient in guessing what the U.S. courts would do.

                          Can we be friends now?

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                          • #43
                            Of course we can be friends, I harbour no ill will towards anyone here. (BTW good post, very well expressed)


                            It's very hard for me to find the information you are asking me for. All I have is google at my disposal, as for US law and precedent setting cases. That is quite the assignment and I don't have the resources, but I would imagine that there are cases where the BREECH FEE were extraordinarily high and some resolution was mitigated.

                            As for reason and logic, I have always felt that a "reasonable expectation" is very close to the framework of most laws. Obviously this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and like you yourself point out even lawyers need the assistance of other lawyers in matters that are away from their specialty.


                            I did find something interesting on a legal definition site:

                            http://www.gillhams.com/dictionary/183.cfm

                            Term: damages

                            1.

                            Damages are a pecuniary remedy. Damages are principally compensatory in nature such that a claimant is placed in the position they would have been if the act or omission that was contrary to law had not taken place. Damages are sought by claimants in litigation, and the remedy seeks to compensate the innocent party in money for the losses suffered by the particular breach of the law.

                            Particular rules for assessment of damages apply depending on the area of law that the plaintiff has established liability in the defendant. For instance, damages for breach of contract are assessed with the reference point of the date of the contract; in tort, damages are assessed as at the date of the tort was committed; in the infringement of intellectual property rights, damages are awarded for the losses sustained by the intellectual property rights owner with reference to the misuse of the intellectual property rights without the consent of the owner.

                            Contract Damages

                            Damages in breach of contract disputes are assessed with reference to the minimum legal obligations under the contract. Where loss cannot be proved, the claimant is only entitled to nominal damages.

                            The interests that are recoverable are expectation, reliance, performance and restitutionary interests. Expectation interests pertain to the benefits which the claimant would reasonably expect to receive from a proper performance of the contract without breach, but were lost due to the breach of contract by the defendant. The reliance interest sounds in the expense or loss incurred by the claimant in preparing to perform the contract which has been wasted due to the failure to perform by the defendant. The performance interest in damages is reflected in the interest in performance which is readily recognised in terms of money.

                            Claimants are not entitled to recover damage that is too remote or damage that they have failed to mitigate.

                            Intellectual Property Damages

                            Damages claims are also able to be made under copyright legislation. For instance, additional damages, which are damages over and above the usual measure may be awarded on a discretionary basis where some benefit has been obtained by the infringer, or there has been a blatant disregard for the rights' owners legal entitlements.

                            Usage: The claimant was awarded damages by the court arising from the breach of contract.

                            Related Words: consequential loss; direct loss; nominal damages; liquidated damages; penalties; breach of contract; account of profits; quantum meruit; contributory negligence; contract; mitigation of damage; remoteness of damage; assessment of damages; general damages; anticipatory breach of contract; special damages; financial loss.
                            The wording above alludes to reasonable expectations, and minimal obligations. To me, just based on the wording above, it would seem that pinning unrealistic expectations of JV's contract would violate the above wordage.

                            To say he has cost his club 3 Million in damages, when he only gets paid 60K Euro, is beyond these obligations and expectations. His performance can only be compensated for in a minimal sense. The expectations of such a player should be basic. The success of his production are beyond the reasonable boundaries of his contract, as reflected by the compensation thereof.

                            To suddenly put the entire franchise on the shoulder of this one player, when it suits you, does not mesh with "minimal obligation" to me. It wouldn't be fair to use the upside as montery judgment due to the performance of the player in given short span, and ignore lets say the potential down side to injury on the flip side.

                            So I would assume, that this is why the law stays away from extremes, and compensates for "minimal obligation". JV was never signed to carry the team, he was not the captain, his initial compensation by the club reflects a contract of a role player.


                            EDIT: (btw, he can still fulfill his contract by performing poorly, so his performance, should not be a measure of loss, if you go by the wording of "minimal legal obligation under the contract")

                            Now, even though I think this matter could be turned in court, it will not be, because the NBA does not want to go there. JV is not worth risking the economic ties that the NBA has fostered with the Eurolegue. So when I said, it was a gentleman's agreement, I meant that even though the NBA is not pleased with some of the tactics being used in Europe to leverage money from its clubs. It does not involve itself in these matters other than to cap the possible buy out that an NBA teams can pay.
                            Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Mon Jun 6, 2011, 02:48 AM.

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