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Thread: Rubio & Calderon \ Flynn & Kemba = Kawhi Leonard

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    It could be even more simple:

    TO MINNY
    - Calderon
    - #5 pick

    TO TORONTO
    - Flynn
    - Webster
    - #2 pick

    I'm worried that Minny might want more in return for Flynn/Webster/#2 though.
    They most definitely would want more.

    The Detroit/Cleveland/Minnesota trade will most definitely go down. Everyone in that trade wins once Detroit gets more than finanical relief (i.e. one of or any combination of #20, #32, player).

    Toronto is better off just making Webster/Flynn for Calderon and try to get a swap with Utah (#3 and $3M for #5 - i.e. Kanter for Knight and $3M).

    Do not forget the Minnesota trade also gives Toronto an extra $1M in cap space this year and possibly $6.2M in 2012-2013 if Webster's option is not picked up ($500K if it was).

  2. #22
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    as it is all about small steps in the right direction, acquiring better younger assets that can eventually become a good team. You don't get from last season to contender overnight.
    key word BETTER younger assets. Not just younger assets. Flynn is not better. He has not shown he can compete at this level. He is just younger.

    No you don't become a contender overnight, but you do need experience to get there.

    I'm not against trading Jose... but if he is moved I want to see it for something that is a step in the right direction.... not a stab in the dark.

    Rather see #2 Ridnour/Webster for Jose #5 any day of the week.

  3. #23
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    key word BETTER younger assets. Not just younger assets. Flynn is not better. He has not shown he can compete at this level. He is just younger.

    No you don't become a contender overnight, but you do need experience to get there.

    I'm not against trading Jose... but if he is moved I want to see it for something that is a step in the right direction.... not a stab in the dark.

    Rather see #2 Ridnour/Webster for Jose #5 any day of the week.
    I guess I don't see Ridnour as anymore of a long-term solution than Flynn/Bayless, but he's paid a lot more money over more years than either of them. I also think Flynn has a lot more potential to improve than Bayless or Ridnour. I think he's just been stuck with a crappy team running a system that was alien to him (quasi-triangle offense), where he was asked to play a style that he wasn't comfortable with and didn't allow his skillset to shine through. I would love to give him a chance and would rather give him a chance running the Raps than Bayless. I think you save money, you get younger and if not better than still no worse and you have 2 chances of finding a good qulaity PG in Flynn/Bayless... if one/both of them don't work out, they have better trade value than Jose would after another season. I don't think either of them are that elusive "pass-first PG of the future", but they have a better chance of developing into that or being used to acquire that down the road, than Calderon would.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Starter charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I posted this as a new topic in the Trade Proposals section of the RR Forum:

    So in light of Rubio deciding to come play for Minnesota, I thought I'd revisit the Calderon-to-Minnesota rumor and address a few teams' needs.

    TO MINNESOTA
    - Calderon (to mentor Rubio and give Minny veteran leadership on the floor)
    - Barbosa (they have no SG and he would also be another veteran that Kahn wants)
    - #5 pick (from Toronto)

    TO INDIANA
    - Ridnour (PG/salary dump for Minny, would be veteran PG for Indy to pair with Collison)
    - Ellington (end of bench player from Minny, purely for salary-matching reasons)

    TO TORONTO
    - Flynn (PG dump for Minny, would give Bayless good young competition for PG time in TO)
    - Webster (salary-matching from Minny, more decent young wing depth for Toronto)
    - Posey (salary dump from Indy, either bought-out or traded by Toronto)
    - cash from Indy to help facilitate buy-out of Posey
    - #2 pick (from Minny)
    - #45 pick (from Indy)


    * Toronto would have a few more options regarding which players to keep, trade or buy-out (Posey) --> I assume Toronto would draft Williams @ #2, or possibly Kanter

    * Minny would go from Flynn/Ridnour to Calderon/Rubio at PG, would also add a veteran SG on an expiring contract in Barbosa (Webster is behind Beasley/Wesley at SF) and would still have the #5 pick to either use or trade

    * Indy would add veteran PG depth (Ridnour) for the big expiring contract of Posey, a 2nd-round pick and cash; they would save $2M next season


    NOTE:
    I couldn't do the trade as-is, due to Barbosa not having exercised his option, but I did it with Kleiza/DeRozan acting as a place-holder for his contract, since they are roughly equal money. That trade did work on ESPN's Trade Machine
    I'd do this in a heartbeat. Even if I really like Calderon, this trade would make the team's future brighter, that's for sure. Then I'd draft Kanter with the second pick.

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Jose < - > flynn Webster (salary dump)
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=5wbosnb

    or maybe an s+t for weems there are a few ways BC could spin it...
    Yea, this makes sense. Webster could also provide the much needed 3 point shooting the team desperately needs!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I guess I don't see Ridnour as anymore of a long-term solution than Flynn/Bayless, but he's paid a lot more money over more years than either of them. I also think Flynn has a lot more potential to improve than Bayless or Ridnour. I think he's just been stuck with a crappy team running a system that was alien to him (quasi-triangle offense), where he was asked to play a style that he wasn't comfortable with and didn't allow his skillset to shine through. I would love to give him a chance and would rather give him a chance running the Raps than Bayless. I think you save money, you get younger and if not better than still no worse and you have 2 chances of finding a good qulaity PG in Flynn/Bayless... if one/both of them don't work out, they have better trade value than Jose would after another season. I don't think either of them are that elusive "pass-first PG of the future", but they have a better chance of developing into that or being used to acquire that down the road, than Calderon would.
    I don't see Flynn, Bayless, Ridnour or Calderon as a long term solution. But who ever that solution turns out to be... I would rather have Calderon as a mentor and team leader, plus as a reliable back up in case of injury (or stupidity or sucking). Ridnour, much like Calderon, is exactly what he is... a solid reliable PG. Each has positives and negatives, but they can run an offense and are reliable game in and game out. No nonesense, get the job done, team players.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again... a triangle offense doesn't make a good pg bad, or a bad pg good. If anything it should have lowered his turnover rate... and at 2+ a game over 18 min last year... thats terrible.

    What makes you think either Flynn or Bayless would have more trade value after a season if they don't work? If neither work out... well doesn't Jose and his expiring contract offer alot more value to a team? Why do you expect another team to take a guy who would have failed for 2+ teams over a guy thats a proven commodity with an expiring contract?

    I know fans love young guys. They love the idea of "potential". But potential or youth mean nothing unless you can do something with it. If the criteria is youth and potential, why not just keep the #5 pick and grab Knight or Walker (neither of which I'm thrilled about) and keep Jose. They are both younger and show more potential... if thats whats important.

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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    nah, it's a forum not an english essay. just thought he should at least get the guys name right.
    I guess you only care about Kaman and not the two other guys whose names he got wrong?=P

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    key word BETTER younger assets. Not just younger assets. Flynn is not better. He has not shown he can compete at this level. He is just younger.

    No you don't become a contender overnight, but you do need experience to get there.

    I'm not against trading Jose... but if he is moved I want to see it for something that is a step in the right direction.... not a stab in the dark.

    Rather see #2 Ridnour/Webster for Jose #5 any day of the week.
    How is Ridnour/Webster more of a step in the right direction? Webster has been below average his entire career, and he's been in the league a lot longer than Flynn. If Flynn has shown he isn't a quality player in the league after only two years, what does that say about Webster? And Ridnour isn't exactly a decent defender either. At least with Flynn, if he doesn't work out, we can decline his option.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    How is Ridnour/Webster more of a step in the right direction? Webster has been below average his entire career, and he's been in the league a lot longer than Flynn. If Flynn has shown he isn't a quality player in the league after only two years, what does that say about Webster? And Ridnour isn't exactly a decent defender either. At least with Flynn, if he doesn't work out, we can decline his option.
    you might have to eat the webster contract to get Jose's off the books
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    you might have to eat the webster contract to get Jose's off the books
    Yes, that was a given since it was Flynn/Webster vs Ridnour/Webster.

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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    How is Ridnour/Webster more of a step in the right direction? Webster has been below average his entire career, and he's been in the league a lot longer than Flynn. If Flynn has shown he isn't a quality player in the league after only two years, what does that say about Webster? And Ridnour isn't exactly a decent defender either. At least with Flynn, if he doesn't work out, we can decline his option.
    I honestly don't have much interest Webster either... I just kept his name in there since it seemed thats what made sense for contract purposes.

    Ridnour is a perfectly average defender. Flynn is non-existent. But if its defense people want, I have no idea why they would be interested in anyone from Minnesota. What were they, the 2nd worse defensive team in the league after Toronto 2 years running?

    If Flynn doesn't work out and you decline his option... you are now left with nothing but a roster spot. Atleast with Jose you have a leader and a quality passer who will always provide something, on an expiring contract.

    Given the FA frenzy that shows up at Toronto's doorstep... I hardly think an empty roster spot will be overly valuable.

  12. #32
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    How is Ridnour/Webster more of a step in the right direction? Webster has been below average his entire career, and he's been in the league a lot longer than Flynn. If Flynn has shown he isn't a quality player in the league after only two years, what does that say about Webster? And Ridnour isn't exactly a decent defender either. At least with Flynn, if he doesn't work out, we can decline his option.
    by the way.. .I never said Ridnour/Webster was a step in the right direction... its just less of a wild stab in the dark than Flynn

  13. #33
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I honestly don't have much interest Webster either... I just kept his name in there since it seemed thats what made sense for contract purposes.

    Ridnour is a perfectly average defender. Flynn is non-existent. But if its defense people want, I have no idea why they would be interested in anyone from Minnesota. What were they, the 2nd worse defensive team in the league after Toronto 2 years running?

    If Flynn doesn't work out and you decline his option... you are now left with nothing but a roster spot. Atleast with Jose you have a leader and a quality passer who will always provide something, on an expiring contract.

    Given the FA frenzy that shows up at Toronto's doorstep... I hardly think an empty roster spot will be overly valuable.
    If Ridnour is a perfectly average defender, then so is Calderon. 111 career defensive rating even though he had the benefit of playing on a very good defensive team in Milwaukee for two years. 17.4 PER for opposing PGs this year. For comparison, Calderon has a 112 career defensive rating despite being simply atrocious in 2009-2010 and opposing PGs were a more average 15.8 PER against him this season. Yes, Flynn has probably been even worse his first two seasons in the NBA, but DeRozan has been equally horrible as well. Yet both are young enough and athletic enough to hopefully get better. Ridnour is already what he is.

    I don't know why you're comparing Flynn to Calderon. I *like* Calderon. Of course Calderon is better than Flynn right now, but Calderon will also cost over twice as much, and he's not getting any younger. I'd move him if it meant moving up in the draft. The comparison should be between Ridnour and Flynn. And yes, worst case scenario declining Flynn's option (unlikely) will be a whole lot better than worst case scenario getting stuck with Ridnour. Those extra years Ridnour has on Flynn are years that the Raptors moght have the room to add free agents. It's not a big deal to have that extra roster spot and financial flexibility when the alternative is Ridnour. Hardly irreplaceable.

    As for your last point, so you'd rather fill space by committing to more mediocre talent rather than keep your options open? It's a rather defeatist attitude that guarantees your conclusion. Mediocre 32-33 year old PGs are not that hard to acquire. And again, you're making way too big a deal out of the ability to decline Flynn if need be. Flexibility is a positive but you're treating it like a foregone conclusion that we MUST empty his roster spot simply because we can.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    by the way.. .I never said Ridnour/Webster was a step in the right direction... its just less of a wild stab in the dark than Flynn
    You should note that I said "more of a step in the right direction." You said:

    [...] if [Calderon] is moved I want to see it for something that is a step in the right direction.... not a stab in the dark
    Followed by:

    Rather see #2 Ridnour/Webster for Jose #5 any day of the week.
    So forgive me if I inferred from your preference of Ridnour/Webster over Flynn/Webster that Ridnour/Webster is, relatively speaking, more of a step in the right direction along with not being a stab in the dark.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Thu Jun 2nd, 2011 at 08:39 PM.

  14. #34
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    I actually don't think Jose's D is as bad as people like to say around here. Regardless, my point was, if someone is looking for D, why are we looking at Minny? If the team wants youth and potential at the PG, why not Kemba/Walker?

    I think Flynn is a terrible PG. I think Jose is perfectly fine PG that can lead the next guy in line. I'm hardly concerned over his contract.

    People put too much value in cap space around here.

    I have no interest in a Ridnour/Webster trade... I would prefer it over a Flynn/Webster trade though. Thats all I was saying there.

    I'm not treating anything like a foregone conclusion...and I never made anything about a roster spot being a "big deal". I have no idea where your "defeatist attitude" comment comes from.

    I think Flynn sucks. In fact I know he has sucked for 2 years. Will he get better? Maybe, Maybe not. I don't want to see this team taking chances on guys that sucks getting better. Lets take a chance on guys that look good getting even better.

    Its pretty simple. Don't agree with me if you want thats fine... but I don't think every detail of what you THOUGHT I was saying/inferring/making a "big deal" of, needs to be broken down.

    But if you feel the need to, take this out of everything: We are talking about a crappier teams, back up to an incredibly average PG, and pairing him with our crappy teams back up to a slightly better than average PG. Sounds real promising.

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    The defeatist attitude comes from not even wanting to put ourselves in the position to sign a quality free agent if the opportunity arises, rather fill our cap with mediocre players who will only be even more mediocre then. Yes, it's not guaranteed that we would necessarily land a quality free agent, but if you don't create the cap room, it's guaranteed you won't. People make too big a deal out of our inability to sign quality free agents. The only year we really had cap room was the year we signed Parker/Garbajosa/etc., when we hardly looked like a desirable team to join. Should we have both the cap space and the look of a promising, up-and-coming team in 2-3 years, I doubt we'll have nearly as much trouble attracting free agents as it seems like we've had.

    I'm also really curious how you expect a team without much talent to increase their average talent level aside from the draft. All this talk of taking "a chance on guys that look good getting even better"... and why would any team in their right mind trade us that without getting DeRozan or Davis in return?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    I know it's just pipe dreaming, but BC would reverse plenty of opinions if he were to somehow trade Calderon and Bargs + TPE space for Beasly and Flynn; then turn around and land Gay for Barbosa and the 5th pick and the Raps first rounder in next years' loaded draft. (or something like that)

    Gay SF
    Beasly PF
    Flynn PG
    Amir C
    Demar SG

    We'd be missing good height at C and a consistent 3 point threat, but they'd be fun to watch.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Heck, who knows, maybe Alabi and Ajinca could turn into consistent contributors at C, given a bit of tenacity and attitude. Also, could trade Reggie straight up for a 3 point threat off the bench.

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    Quote Pele wrote: View Post
    Heck, who knows, maybe Alabi and Ajinca could turn into consistent contributors at C, given a bit of tenacity and attitude. Also, could trade Reggie straight up for a 3 point threat off the bench.
    Ajinca is not an NBA calibre big man IMO - if he has not figured it out by now I doubt he will.
    Alabi has a chance - he can defend and rebound in glimpses @ NBA level - he needs to find consistancy.
    Reggie Keep this guy he is everything you want from a Role playing vet / gritty / no nonsense / team oriented / affordable / and can put up league leading number in the area Raps need it most REBOUNDING.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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