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Rubio & Calderon \ Flynn & Kemba = Kawhi Leonard

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  • #31
    Quixotic wrote: View Post
    How is Ridnour/Webster more of a step in the right direction? Webster has been below average his entire career, and he's been in the league a lot longer than Flynn. If Flynn has shown he isn't a quality player in the league after only two years, what does that say about Webster? And Ridnour isn't exactly a decent defender either. At least with Flynn, if he doesn't work out, we can decline his option.
    I honestly don't have much interest Webster either... I just kept his name in there since it seemed thats what made sense for contract purposes.

    Ridnour is a perfectly average defender. Flynn is non-existent. But if its defense people want, I have no idea why they would be interested in anyone from Minnesota. What were they, the 2nd worse defensive team in the league after Toronto 2 years running?

    If Flynn doesn't work out and you decline his option... you are now left with nothing but a roster spot. Atleast with Jose you have a leader and a quality passer who will always provide something, on an expiring contract.

    Given the FA frenzy that shows up at Toronto's doorstep... I hardly think an empty roster spot will be overly valuable.

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    • #32
      Quixotic wrote: View Post
      How is Ridnour/Webster more of a step in the right direction? Webster has been below average his entire career, and he's been in the league a lot longer than Flynn. If Flynn has shown he isn't a quality player in the league after only two years, what does that say about Webster? And Ridnour isn't exactly a decent defender either. At least with Flynn, if he doesn't work out, we can decline his option.
      by the way.. .I never said Ridnour/Webster was a step in the right direction... its just less of a wild stab in the dark than Flynn

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      • #33
        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
        I honestly don't have much interest Webster either... I just kept his name in there since it seemed thats what made sense for contract purposes.

        Ridnour is a perfectly average defender. Flynn is non-existent. But if its defense people want, I have no idea why they would be interested in anyone from Minnesota. What were they, the 2nd worse defensive team in the league after Toronto 2 years running?

        If Flynn doesn't work out and you decline his option... you are now left with nothing but a roster spot. Atleast with Jose you have a leader and a quality passer who will always provide something, on an expiring contract.

        Given the FA frenzy that shows up at Toronto's doorstep... I hardly think an empty roster spot will be overly valuable.
        If Ridnour is a perfectly average defender, then so is Calderon. 111 career defensive rating even though he had the benefit of playing on a very good defensive team in Milwaukee for two years. 17.4 PER for opposing PGs this year. For comparison, Calderon has a 112 career defensive rating despite being simply atrocious in 2009-2010 and opposing PGs were a more average 15.8 PER against him this season. Yes, Flynn has probably been even worse his first two seasons in the NBA, but DeRozan has been equally horrible as well. Yet both are young enough and athletic enough to hopefully get better. Ridnour is already what he is.

        I don't know why you're comparing Flynn to Calderon. I *like* Calderon. Of course Calderon is better than Flynn right now, but Calderon will also cost over twice as much, and he's not getting any younger. I'd move him if it meant moving up in the draft. The comparison should be between Ridnour and Flynn. And yes, worst case scenario declining Flynn's option (unlikely) will be a whole lot better than worst case scenario getting stuck with Ridnour. Those extra years Ridnour has on Flynn are years that the Raptors moght have the room to add free agents. It's not a big deal to have that extra roster spot and financial flexibility when the alternative is Ridnour. Hardly irreplaceable.

        As for your last point, so you'd rather fill space by committing to more mediocre talent rather than keep your options open? It's a rather defeatist attitude that guarantees your conclusion. Mediocre 32-33 year old PGs are not that hard to acquire. And again, you're making way too big a deal out of the ability to decline Flynn if need be. Flexibility is a positive but you're treating it like a foregone conclusion that we MUST empty his roster spot simply because we can.

        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
        by the way.. .I never said Ridnour/Webster was a step in the right direction... its just less of a wild stab in the dark than Flynn
        You should note that I said "more of a step in the right direction." You said:

        [...] if [Calderon] is moved I want to see it for something that is a step in the right direction.... not a stab in the dark
        Followed by:

        Rather see #2 Ridnour/Webster for Jose #5 any day of the week.
        So forgive me if I inferred from your preference of Ridnour/Webster over Flynn/Webster that Ridnour/Webster is, relatively speaking, more of a step in the right direction along with not being a stab in the dark.
        Last edited by Quixotic; Thu Jun 2, 2011, 08:39 PM.

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        • #34
          I actually don't think Jose's D is as bad as people like to say around here. Regardless, my point was, if someone is looking for D, why are we looking at Minny? If the team wants youth and potential at the PG, why not Kemba/Walker?

          I think Flynn is a terrible PG. I think Jose is perfectly fine PG that can lead the next guy in line. I'm hardly concerned over his contract.

          People put too much value in cap space around here.

          I have no interest in a Ridnour/Webster trade... I would prefer it over a Flynn/Webster trade though. Thats all I was saying there.

          I'm not treating anything like a foregone conclusion...and I never made anything about a roster spot being a "big deal". I have no idea where your "defeatist attitude" comment comes from.

          I think Flynn sucks. In fact I know he has sucked for 2 years. Will he get better? Maybe, Maybe not. I don't want to see this team taking chances on guys that sucks getting better. Lets take a chance on guys that look good getting even better.

          Its pretty simple. Don't agree with me if you want thats fine... but I don't think every detail of what you THOUGHT I was saying/inferring/making a "big deal" of, needs to be broken down.

          But if you feel the need to, take this out of everything: We are talking about a crappier teams, back up to an incredibly average PG, and pairing him with our crappy teams back up to a slightly better than average PG. Sounds real promising.

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          • #35
            The defeatist attitude comes from not even wanting to put ourselves in the position to sign a quality free agent if the opportunity arises, rather fill our cap with mediocre players who will only be even more mediocre then. Yes, it's not guaranteed that we would necessarily land a quality free agent, but if you don't create the cap room, it's guaranteed you won't. People make too big a deal out of our inability to sign quality free agents. The only year we really had cap room was the year we signed Parker/Garbajosa/etc., when we hardly looked like a desirable team to join. Should we have both the cap space and the look of a promising, up-and-coming team in 2-3 years, I doubt we'll have nearly as much trouble attracting free agents as it seems like we've had.

            I'm also really curious how you expect a team without much talent to increase their average talent level aside from the draft. All this talk of taking "a chance on guys that look good getting even better"... and why would any team in their right mind trade us that without getting DeRozan or Davis in return?

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            • #36
              I know it's just pipe dreaming, but BC would reverse plenty of opinions if he were to somehow trade Calderon and Bargs + TPE space for Beasly and Flynn; then turn around and land Gay for Barbosa and the 5th pick and the Raps first rounder in next years' loaded draft. (or something like that)

              Gay SF
              Beasly PF
              Flynn PG
              Amir C
              Demar SG

              We'd be missing good height at C and a consistent 3 point threat, but they'd be fun to watch.

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              • #37
                Heck, who knows, maybe Alabi and Ajinca could turn into consistent contributors at C, given a bit of tenacity and attitude. Also, could trade Reggie straight up for a 3 point threat off the bench.

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                • #38
                  Pele wrote: View Post
                  Heck, who knows, maybe Alabi and Ajinca could turn into consistent contributors at C, given a bit of tenacity and attitude. Also, could trade Reggie straight up for a 3 point threat off the bench.
                  Ajinca is not an NBA calibre big man IMO - if he has not figured it out by now I doubt he will.
                  Alabi has a chance - he can defend and rebound in glimpses @ NBA level - he needs to find consistancy.
                  Reggie Keep this guy he is everything you want from a Role playing vet / gritty / no nonsense / team oriented / affordable / and can put up league leading number in the area Raps need it most REBOUNDING.
                  "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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