Wow. I agree Calderon is an ideal fit for Minny now that Rubio is coming, but while Kahn is nuts, and nothing can be out of his realm, but giving up Webster, Flynn, Ridnour AND the #2 pick for Calderon?CalgaryRapsFan wrote:
Not happening. If it were I would of course be all on board, but just don't see Kahn as THAT stupid.
Maybe if there was a pick swap, but I would like to think that even Kahn isn't that stupid.
Eh follow my TWITTER!
Actually, I would be fine with Calderon and Amir for Flynn, Webster and #2. In fact, I might even include Davis with Calderon, mostly because of the financial considerations of getting out from under Calderon's contract. But I think it depends on whether Williams (at #2) is going to be a really dynamic player and of higher long-term value than Davis. I kind of think that having #2 and keeping #5 might allow the Raptors to get a dynamic front-court scorer (Williams), while replacing some of Davis' rebounding and defence with the #5 (Biyombo? Leonard? Valanciunus?). But I think this decision really rests on the scouting of the prospects and making an accurate read about their future potential.
The #2 is worth a lot more than that. You seem to be treating it like a 2nd rounder, and not the 2nd overall pick in the draft. Somebody would offer up more than that. Disregarding the CBA for a second, you wouldn't get the #2 for Calderon and Barbosa, let alone Johnny Flynn and Ridnour as well. The Raptors are nobody's sweetheart in the NBA.
wow is this ever getting out of hand.
You guys do realize that this is being considered one of the worst draft classes in maybe a decade right?
You guys do know what Johnny Flynn has done to date in the NBA right?
Amir or Ed? Just to "get from under Calderon's contract"? You do realize he only has 2 years left and its 9-10 mil dollars... and we aren't talking about a Gilbert Arenas type player right?
My god I am so thankful you guys don't run this team.
Settle down. I noted that it really depends on the scouting. I'm not a scout, and I doubt that you are either. I realize that this is not as good a draft class as others, but many scouts are quite high on Williams, and maybe #2 this year is equivalent to #13 last year, which is where Ed Davis was picked. I think we need to trust the scouts and GM and if they are really sold on Williams then I think it is a fair call to trade last year's #13 for this year's #2. A number of scouts see quite a bit of strength in this draft between 8 and 20. Actually, there are some draft analysts who don't see a huge difference in potential between Tristan Thompson and Ed Davis, and you could probably trade the #2 for a couple of lower picks that would pick up Thompson and at least one other good prospect.
And are you really saying that you wouldn't trade Amir for the #2 pick this year, or any year? I like Amir, but I bet just about any GM would trade Amir for a #2 in a heartbeat, and any GM would be roasted for trading a #2 pick straight up for Amir. Just sayin'.
I realize that Calderon has only two years left, but if you could wipe about $5 million in excess salary off the books for the next couple of years that is nothing to sneeze at, especially if the new CBA is more restrictive.
I am not that high on Jonny Flynn, but I think it is early to write him off, and rebuilding will require some time. If he doesn't pan out, there are likely a couple of good guard prospects in next year's draft.
Suffice to say, I would guess that if Kahn approached Colangelo with the offer of #2 and Flynn for Calderon and Amir or Davis, Colangelo wouldn't dismiss this out of hand.
Last edited by Bouncepass; Fri Jun 3rd, 2011 at 02:54 PM.
Fair enough.
I was just wondering aloud how high a value Minny would place on dumping the salaries of their 3rd & 4th string PGs (after Rubio & Calderon) and the salary of their 3rd string SF, along the lines of the Clippers' giving their lottery pick to Cleveland as a thank-you for them taking Baron Davis. I would be fine including the #5 pick with Calderon for Flynn & contract (Webster/Ridnour) & the #2, but I was just brainstorming ideas to get the #2 AND keep the #5... you're probably right that Calderon and the salary dump alone isn't enough.
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jun 3rd, 2011 at 03:04 PM.
Amir possibly, but not Davis, IMO.
I don't want to rehash the "Davis makes Amir somewhat redundant" debate, but if we could get Flynn & Webster & Ridnour & the #2 pick (Williams) by trading Calderon & Amir, while keeping the #5 pick (possibly Kanter) and letting Davis/Bargnani man the PF position, I would be in favor of it.
I wouldn't trade Davis for the #2 pick though.
C: Kanter/Bargnani
PF: Davis/Bargnani/Kleiza
SF: Williams/Johnson/Webster/Kleiza
SG: DeRozan/Barbosa/Webster
PG: Flynn/Bayless/Ridnour
That's a decent young team with lots of potential and/or trade chips for further improvement!
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jun 3rd, 2011 at 03:16 PM.
You are aware this is a fan forum where fans can get together and discuss ideas, right?
Make your ideas, post your opinions, give your input.
However, no one is making this personal except you. If someone does not share the same opinion, so be it. Your opinion is exactly that and it is no better than anyone else's or mine - basing opinion as fact is where trouble tends to brew.
I think including Davis or Amir would not be worth many of the deals mentioned. I do think Calderon for Webster/Flynn is extremely beneficial to both teams moving forward. That is my opinion. Your opinion has been made clear as well. Neither one is necessarily right nor is either one necessarily wrong.
The enjoyment of these forums is taken away when posters continuously belittle others for an opposing view.
Realistically, I don't see Amir getting a deal done for the #2. He's a nice complementary player, but doesn't have enough upside to be the centerpiece of a deal for a #2 pick.
Don't get me wrong, I like Davis a lot. But if scouts are correct, Williams could be a dynamic scorer from the 3 or 4, and the Raptors really need that. He also looks like he will shoot the 3pt quite well, and the Raptors are near the bottom in that facet. So, I don't think it would be an easy decision to trade Davis for the #2, but it would have to be considered based on a full scouting assessment of Williams, and some determination about whether Davis' strengths (defence and rebounding) might be replaceable by the #5 pick.
I like Williams, but I think Davis has the skillset that can anchor a team on both ends of the floor. Assuming the Raps will be a lottery team again next year, look ahead to the several highly skilled SF that will be in that draft (ie: Barnes) that are as good as or better than Williams (and not as much of a PF/SF tweener). In that case, I would rather keep Davis and draft a stud SF next year, rather than trade Davis for Williams this year (lateral move at best).
unless you're getting a guy like howard, CP3 or westbrook (i use them as examples because they COULD be traded) then i'd be willing to give up davis. otherwise, absolutely not. too much talent at a critical position.
@jerboat
You say "3rd & 4th string PGs" as though they're just junk that needs to be ejected. Luke would be an excellent backup PG on any team. He's not some no talent, overpaid hack with one foot out the door of the NBA. At this stage in the game he's better than Bayless and not that too far behind Calderon. Jonny Flynn has big talent and lots of potential. He was the 6th overall pick on two years ago. He had a solid rookie campaign. He struggled last season with his shot because he was injured but did alright as a play maker despite it. If either of these guys are 3rd and 4th stringers on a team then no doubt that team has a serious log jam at the PG position. That doesn't mean that team should dump them for nothing. When you buy a new vehicle what happens to the old one? You don't trade it to some kid on the side of the street for half the Mars bar he's chomping on, you sell it and try get back it's market value. I think Calderon and #5 for Flynn, (Webster/Ridnour and Derrick Williams is still very one sided. Most people are saying Williams will be an all-star. Let me paraphrase the proposal again:
Outbound
- An aging PG who can't defend, who has lost a step and is owed almost $20M over the next two season
- #5 pick, which is far worse than the #2 pick given that the consensus appears to be that the whole draft is a crap shoot after #2.
Inbound
- Jonny Flynn, the 6th overall pick two years ago who has as much talent as any PG in the 2011 draft.
- Webster/Ridnour, both servicable bench players.
- Derrick Williams, a guy who many are suggesting has big time talent will probably be an all-star.
Moving on, Ed Davis is probably going to have a better career than most guys taken in the top ten of this draft. Derrick Williams looks like a high talent player but what he brings to the table is far more readily available in the NBA than what Ed Davis brings to the table. For that reason Ed Davis is more valuable in my opinion.
All valid points and I didn't mean to underestimate the value of Flynn/Ridnour/Webster. On the other hand though, it's hard to get full market value for something when all potential buyers know you're at least a little bit desperate to get rid of it. To have that much salary sitting on the bench, not even all 2nd stringers, in a league that is almost guaranteed to get more financially restrictive, is going to cause at least a little desperation!
It really will come down to a few points that none of us are privy to:
1. How highly does Minny regard Calderon as a veteran and a mentor to Rubio?
2. How desperate is Minny to shed salary?
3. What other offers is Minny getting for any/all of #2 pick, Flynn, Ridnour and Webster?
*** the last two points are the true determining factors in setting the market value for Minny's players
See the thing is, why would they be desperate so move Flynn to get back an older, higher priced PG? There will be multiple teams who want him and I don't really think a team who really wants him is going to low ball the Wolves and watch as they seal a better deal with someone else. Wouldn't that first team make a better counter offer? Who knows, maybe then the second team might counter that offer because they also really want him. Before you know it, they're at market value for Flynn. A hypothetical situation that could play out. I think it's more realistic then assuming the Wolves are boxed into a corner with no one is bidding on Flynn besides the Raptors.
I personally think it's illogical to short change their own team to bring in a guy who at the end of the day probably isn't going to make a long lasting impact on their franchise. It would no doubt be a nice to have in making Rubio feel more at home.
There are many articles that show the Wolves having one of the highest amounts of spending money in the league come this summer. I don't think desperation is a warranted emotion in their camp.
Why do they move the #2 at all? They could move either one of those guys without touching the #2. They've come out and said that they're not moving the #2 unless they get an outstanding offer. All I've seen in here are trade offers that wouldn't even pass in NBA 2k11.
Flynn is a really promising young PG. Somebody is going to offer them something fair for him. It was reported that multiple teams are interested.
Why do they need to move Ridnour at all? Minnesota is going to need a good reserve PG and I'm not sure why anyone has it in their heads that guy is Calderon or no one.
Webster? Who cares? He's more marketable this off-season than last off-season. I mean he's healthy now instead of coming off of back surgery. He had a great close to the season as well. Last year they managed to get him for Ryan Gomes. If they got a piece like that back now I'm sure they wouldn't be broken up about it.
Are you serious?
No where did I say someone's opinion was wrong. I never said anything was fact. I made sure not to use any individuals name specifically (except to use a quote), hence "you guys" (and if one somehow took that to literally mean anyone inparticular or themselves inparticular well thats hardly my fault). I did not insult anyone or use inappropriate language. If someone took that personally or it somehow hurt someone's feelings well I imagine they are made of glass.
If that post is somehow belittling people, then I would argue you are using your post to belittle me in the exact same way.
In the words of Bouncepass "settle down" (and if I must that is not intended as a slight towards bouncepass, a mode of disrespect towards him, or an insult towards anyone).
PS. Feel free to delete both your post directed at me, and this one as a response to you as they are quite unneccessary and unrelated to this discussion. I will not take it personally. (and if I must again I am not trying to be sarcastic, belittle you, or insults you)
I dont see how Flynn can be traded to the Raptors. What assets do we have to trade for Flynn? I mean Jose would be good mentor, but there is no way they would take on Jose and his redic contract for flynn. They would have to get atleast ed davis i would think.
I feel that people think that MIni just wants to dump Flynn onto another team without getting any assets in return. Flynn was considered the best PG of that draft class and im sure Mini wants to get as much assets in return, regardless of what Rubio's sighing. I think if we have to forfeit our draft pick, #5, for flynn it might be worth the gamble, especially if knight and kanter are off the board.
Also, i see no way that the Mini would give up their 2nd overall pick for whatever assets we give them, unless its derozan. They can do much better in the open market than the proposals i have seen in this thread of giving them a variation of jose + fillers +#5 for FLynn+fillers+#2.
uhm, did the posts get deleted or edited or something?
i scrolled back and couldn't find anything remotely belittling or insulting.
They took him 6th overall, right after just taking Rubio 5th. They were heavily criticized for this by virtually everyone. If they don't get something of equal value back for him it's going to be a PR nightmare. They moved Foye and Mike Miller to get the Rubio pick. Foye had been progressing very well in Minnesota at that time. His value then was worth a lot more in my opinion than Jose Calderon is worth now. Mike Miller just had a solid season for the Wolves.
no they didn't....
... glad I'm not the only one that didn't thinks that
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