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Thread: Anyone else scared that BC is backed into a 2 year corner?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    I'm a natural pessimist. I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management.
    Sigh, me too...

    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management. .
    Me neither.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I'm guessing there are a lot of Leaf fans here as well - lol. I hear OKC and CHI are always looking for new fans.

    (joking)

    I think the optimist vs. pessimist is probably one of the best ways to view the situation and, while I lean towards optimism, both views are unknowns and valid at this point in time.

    Trading (and getting something of value for Bargnani and/or Calderon) puts the balance of power in the optimists side, in my opinion.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Trading (and getting something of value for Bargnani and/or Calderon) puts the balance of power in the optimists side, in my opinion.
    Yes. Let it be done.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Rookie Raptoronto's Avatar
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    I suspect the 2 year contract is to allow BC a graceful exit that appears to be on his own terms. BC is an NBA golden boy and a likely candidate to replace Stern some day...you CANNOT fire him. I see him setting up the front office and then sometime before his two years are up he will announce he has decided not to come back (even though MLSE *wink* wanted him back) but the team is in good shape without him now, blah, blah blah.

  5. #25
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm guessing there are a lot of Leaf fans here as well - lol. I hear OKC and CHI are always looking for new fans.

    (joking)

    I think the optimist vs. pessimist is probably one of the best ways to view the situation and, while I lean towards optimism, both views are unknowns and valid at this point in time.

    Trading (and getting something of value for Bargnani and/or Calderon) puts the balance of power in the optimists side, in my opinion.
    See, I think of it the other way around: after being a Raps fan since their inception and an NBA fan for even longer, I've become pretty aware of just how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better. Anything less and you're looking at a team like the Hawks, perpetually getting bounced out of the first or second round.

    As for the idea that a trade will swing the balance, I wonder how you think that might go down. If you're talking about adding franchise-level talent, then the Raps would have to strip their roster bare, making a resign unlikely. If you're talking about anything less, then I have to wonder what the point would be and how much such a player would really help (as well as what young players the Raps would have to give up). The only trade chips the Raps own are pieces that they're counting on to grow internally - they won't be able to swing a trade without including some of them, and how much can they afford to give up in adding established talent without simply treading water and turning into the Hawks?

    Again, I just don't share your optimism.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    ...how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better.
    Agreed. Although to be fair, I don't think Matt52 was talking about getting a franchise player for Calderon / Bargnani (probably not going to happen) Only that replacing those players with veterans of equal / greater value, who you know, play defence, would make more people feel better about this team.

    You are right. For the most part you obtain franchise players through the draft...

    Unless three of them up and decide 2 years before their free agency that it would be cool to play together, and then they weasel a way to make that happen.

    Man I hope Dirk comes through in this series and delays their glory, if only for one year. Man, would that ever be right.
    Last edited by Donnie Brasco; Wed Jun 8th, 2011 at 04:35 AM.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    See, I think of it the other way around: after being a Raps fan since their inception and an NBA fan for even longer, I've become pretty aware of just how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better. Anything less and you're looking at a team like the Hawks, perpetually getting bounced out of the first or second round.

    As for the idea that a trade will swing the balance, I wonder how you think that might go down. If you're talking about adding franchise-level talent, then the Raps would have to strip their roster bare, making a resign unlikely. If you're talking about anything less, then I have to wonder what the point would be and how much such a player would really help (as well as what young players the Raps would have to give up). The only trade chips the Raps own are pieces that they're counting on to grow internally - they won't be able to swing a trade without including some of them, and how much can they afford to give up in adding established talent without simply treading water and turning into the Hawks?

    Again, I just don't share your optimism.
    And not sharing the optimism is fine but be sure not to let opinion sway reality. I have a feeling reality is somewhere in between both of our opinions.

    As for how I might think a Bargnani and/or Calderon trade might go down, check the trade forum. I've done more than a few ideas - some nonsense, some reasonable.

  8. #28
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    See, I think of it the other way around: after being a Raps fan since their inception and an NBA fan for even longer, I've become pretty aware of just how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better. Anything less and you're looking at a team like the Hawks, perpetually getting bounced out of the first or second round.

    As for the idea that a trade will swing the balance, I wonder how you think that might go down. If you're talking about adding franchise-level talent, then the Raps would have to strip their roster bare, making a resign unlikely. If you're talking about anything less, then I have to wonder what the point would be and how much such a player would really help (as well as what young players the Raps would have to give up). The only trade chips the Raps own are pieces that they're counting on to grow internally - they won't be able to swing a trade without including some of them, and how much can they afford to give up in adding established talent without simply treading water and turning into the Hawks?

    Again, I just don't share your optimism.
    I agree with so much of this.... except one thing. I don't think you NEED a top tier talent to win. I think a team CAN win with a very well built team (ex. Detroit), its just rarely done and very difficult to do (then again I wouldn't argue with someone if they considered Ben Wallace that top tier talent as I think he is the best defensive player to ever play)

    The Raps either loose until they draft a pimp, or try to win and hope they get lucky along the way. Regardless, I'd still take the later if only to not watch loosing seasons for another 5 years.

    Just a note: for those who think DD or Ed will just "bolt", don't forget about RFA. The only way they will leave is if the demand to leave, atleast allowing it to happen (in part) on the Raptors terms.

  9. #29
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    Seems like this boils down to the fact that some people are natural optimists, and some are natural pessimists. I'm a natural pessimist. Seems like those who think the Raps are a few years away from completing the rebuild are assuming a lot; that the kids they have will develop, that the draft picks they have won't be busts, that trades will bolster the roster instead of backfiring, etc etc. I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management.
    I'm neither the former or the latter. While I do say things like, "we've got this draft and the next," that's merely being flippant, and who really enjoys reading, "oh no, the sky is falling." I'm a realist who simply tries to lighten the mood. What I say I hope will happen is not the same as what I think will happen, especially when you consider what I think is needed for us to become a real contender.

  10. #30
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    If he can:
    1. Get rid of Calderon's contract
    2. Trade Bargnani or move him to the bench as 6/7th man
    3. Draft Kanter AND Knight/Walker in 2011
    4. Draft Barnes in 2012
    5. Sign a big name FA (Chris Paul?) in 2012 (all the young talent will attract them)

    Then he is God of the dinosaurs. All this is of course capable of happening in 2 years.

    1. Paul 2. DeRozan 3. Barnes 4. Davis 5. Kanter. 6. Knight 7. Bargnani

    Ahhh, dreaming is nice, ain't it?

  11. #31
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    If he can:
    1. Get rid of Calderon's contract
    2. Trade Bargnani or move him to the bench as 6/7th man
    3. Draft Kanter AND Knight/Walker in 2011
    4. Draft Barnes in 2012
    5. Sign a big name FA (Chris Paul?) in 2012 (all the young talent will attract them)

    Then he is God of the dinosaurs. All this is of course capable of happening in 2 years.

    1. Paul 2. DeRozan 3. Barnes 4. Davis 5. Kanter. 6. Knight 7. Bargnani

    Ahhh, dreaming is nice, ain't it?
    If we're going to dream, I'd rather have it be:

    1. Paul, 2. DeRozan, 3. Best 2012 Draft SF, 4. Davis, 5. Kanter, 6. Calderon, 7. Johnson

  12. #32
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I agree with so much of this.... except one thing. I don't think you NEED a top tier talent to win. I think a team CAN win with a very well built team (ex. Detroit), its just rarely done and very difficult to do (then again I wouldn't argue with someone if they considered Ben Wallace that top tier talent as I think he is the best defensive player to ever play)
    You know, I would have agreed with you before Boston. But they started an arms race that's continuing with Miami and if you really want to compete for the conference, let alone the championship, you're going to have to go through them for the next 5-8 years. Sucks, but that's the reality of it. Dallas is experiencing that right now, and how would they be doing without Dirk?

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    You know, I would have agreed with you before Boston. But they started an arms race that's continuing with Miami and if you really want to compete for the conference, let alone the championship, you're going to have to go through them for the next 5-8 years. Sucks, but that's the reality of it. Dallas is experiencing that right now, and how would they be doing without Dirk?
    You right. Teams that plan to contend for the next 8 years are going to have to game plan against the Heat. I don't really agree that Boston kick-started the Super-Team Era, which brought us to the present day. 8 teams have won the NBA title in 30 years. No other North American sport has had such an unequal group of champions during the modern era. The Spurs, Bulls, 80's Celtics / Lakers were all comparably superior to their competition during their respective eras.

    For sure, the way the Heat were assembled was entirely unique (and due to the upcoming CBA, may not be repeated)... But even so, this is not the beginning of 1 or 2 teams dominating the league (has been going on for a long time). I am 30 years old, and this had been going on during my entire life. The NFL by comparison, is a much greater example of parity. I guess that is probably due to the unpredictability of 1 game playoffs.

    Whatever, whatever. Blah, blah, blah. Bottom line, if we want to be celebrating an NBA finals victory in Toronto (fuck yeah), the road to the Finals goes thru South Beach, and BC or whoever is building this team better recognize.

    One love muthafuckas.
    Last edited by Donnie Brasco; Wed Jun 8th, 2011 at 04:36 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    If he can:
    1. Get rid of Calderon's contract
    2. Trade Bargnani or move him to the bench as 6/7th man
    3. Draft Kanter AND Knight/Walker in 2011
    4. Draft Barnes in 2012
    5. Sign a big name FA (Chris Paul?) in 2012 (all the young talent will attract them)

    Then he is God of the dinosaurs. All this is of course capable of happening in 2 years.

    1. Paul 2. DeRozan 3. Barnes 4. Davis 5. Kanter. 6. Knight 7. Bargnani

    Ahhh, dreaming is nice, ain't it?
    I would say much of that is possible, save for the Chris Paul signing, but if you have Knight that is less an issue since he will grow with the others. I am definitely in the court (no surprise here) that Bargnani be traded. Especially if you think you can get both Knight and Kanter, I would bet Bargnani would need to be involved in the deal.

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