DOUG SMITH on the draft. says raps take KEMBA @ 5

[Tim W.]

I just can't see MIN as a trade partner for Bargnani for the #2. I still think Bargnani has value out there, but I'm not sure it's that high, and I'm not sure he's that much of an add for MIN. Plus, if you believe CLE would be mad to pass on Irving -- as I do -- then TO trading Bargnani for the #2 only makes sense if they hang onto the #5 as well. Otherwise, it's pretty much a trade of Bargnani for Williams, and forces a subsequent trade of one of Williams, Amir, or Davis. Which is rife with risk for the GM, since you're pretty much guessing at the upside of all 3.

TO is set at PF for the next 5 years with Johnson and Davis. Bringing in another 4 is not what they need, "asset collection" aside. The only reason for TO to move up in this draft is to get get Irving, and possibly Knight if they really think he's a franchise PG. Otherwise, keep the #5 and try to trade for another 5-15 pick instead.

With Kahn, no one knows whether Minnesota is a likely trading partner for Bargnani. If I was him, they wouldn't be, but if I was him they wouldn't have done half the crap they have. You just never know.

And Williams isn't a PF in the NBA. He's projected as a SF, which would be fine for the Raptors. If they trade up, though, it might be for Kanter or even Irving, if he isn't taken first.

[jimmie]

I don't know if I agree that Williams will be an NBA 3. I know people are saying it, but I don't see it based on his college game. I think he'll be an undersized 4. I mentioned David West in another post, and I still think that might be a good comparison. If he really can be a get-his-own-shot SF, then I'm all for having him in TO, but in this draft, I'd rather concentrate on BPA at one of the 2 positions of greatest need, and not sell the farm -- or sell assets that could otherwise help get a second top-15 pick or veteran C or starting PG -- for Williams. There's not a ton of separation among anyone in this draft (although I do think Irving could be special), and I'm not even sure whoever comes in at the 5 is even going to be a career starter.

[Employee]

With Kahn, no one knows whether Minnesota is a likely trading partner for Bargnani. If I was him, they wouldn't be, but if I was him they wouldn't have done half the crap they have. You just never know.

And Williams isn't a PF in the NBA. He's projected as a SF, which would be fine for the Raptors. If they trade up, though, it might be for Kanter or even Irving, if he isn't taken first.

Min is prob really happy that they got the #2 instead of the #1. Makes life easier since they already have 14 PG's under contract. But if the Cavs draft Kanter #1 the Wolves' universe (and mine) would be maligned.

[Tim W.]

I don't know if I agree that Williams will be an NBA 3. I know people are saying it, but I don't see it based on his college game. I think he'll be an undersized 4. I mentioned David West in another post, and I still think that might be a good comparison. If he really can be a get-his-own-shot SF, then I'm all for having him in TO, but in this draft, I'd rather concentrate on BPA at one of the 2 positions of greatest need, and not sell the farm -- or sell assets that could otherwise help get a second top-15 pick or veteran C or starting PG -- for Williams. There's not a ton of separation among anyone in this draft (although I do think Irving could be special), and I'm not even sure whoever comes in at the 5 is even going to be a career starter.

I think Williams is much more athletic than David West. And I really don't see him having a problem scoring at the 3. My only worry with Williams is whether he can be a good defender there. Either way, though, I don't see many teams wanting to play him at the 4, where I think he'll have more defensive problems.

[Maleko]

I think Williams is much more athletic than David West. And I really don't see him having a problem scoring at the 3. My only worry with Williams is whether he can be a good defender there. Either way, though, I don't see many teams wanting to play him at the 4, where I think he'll have more defensive problems.

Ditto.

[SuperRaptor]

I for one hope that the raptors actually trade the 5th pick overall, and use that packaged with calderon to get us a nice veteran C or SF. I disagree that the raptors need to pick a PG, I think you give bayless a chance at PG. We do not need anymore youth, we were the 2nd youngest team in the NBA last year and if you took Reggie Evans out we were the youngest, I want to make the playoffs this coming year, I think its time to build around what we have.

[jimmie]

I think Williams is much more athletic than David West. And I really don't see him having a problem scoring at the 3. My only worry with Williams is whether he can be a good defender there. Either way, though, I don't see many teams wanting to play him at the 4, where I think he'll have more defensive problems.

Well, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement for a #2 pick, then. And West used to be pretty athletic, too. Bottom line, I'd prefer to avoid the question marks attached to Williams as a #2 pick. TO is OK at the 3 for now, with a better draft coming in 2012, but they are really not OK at the 5, and are also pretty thin at the 1, especially if Calderon is being shopped.

As I said, I see no sense in moving up unless a) they also keep the #5, or b) they are assured of getting either Irving or Knight.

[jimmie]

I for one hope that the raptors actually trade the 5th pick overall, and use that packaged with calderon to get us a nice veteran C or SF. I disagree that the raptors need to pick a PG, I think you give bayless a chance at PG. We do not need anymore youth, we were the 2nd youngest team in the NBA last year and if you took Reggie Evans out we were the youngest, I want to make the playoffs this coming year, I think its time to build around what we have.

I have zero faith in Bayless developing into a starting-calibre PG; he sure as hell won't get this team (even with the added vet SF or C as you are asking for) to the playoffs in 2012. And if you package Calderon, who plays behind Bayless? TO needs a franchise PG in the worst way. I'm not saying that it should be the #1 priority this year, but it has to be high on the list.

[Tim W.]

Well, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement for a #2 pick, then. And West used to be pretty athletic, too. Bottom line, I'd prefer to avoid the question marks attached to Williams as a #2 pick. TO is OK at the 3 for now, with a better draft coming in 2012, but they are really not OK at the 5, and are also pretty thin at the 1, especially if Calderon is being shopped.

As I said, I see no sense in moving up unless a) they also keep the #5, or b) they are assured of getting either Irving or Knight.

I wasn't suggesting moving up to the #2 to draft Williams. It's just that IF the Raptors end up getting the pick, he'd obviously be an option. Kanter would be the other. I'd lean towards Kanter, but if Colangelo thinks that Williams is the better player, then that's who he should draft.

I don't know whether the SF position is OK, but it's not as bad as the 5 position. But a 22 win team shouldn't be looking to fill positions. They should draft the best player they can and sort if out later.

[Tim W.]

I for one hope that the raptors actually trade the 5th pick overall, and use that packaged with calderon to get us a nice veteran C or SF. I disagree that the raptors need to pick a PG, I think you give bayless a chance at PG. We do not need anymore youth, we were the 2nd youngest team in the NBA last year and if you took Reggie Evans out we were the youngest, I want to make the playoffs this coming year, I think its time to build around what we have.

It's great to say the Raptors should build around what they have, but unfortunately what they have is a few decent players that might end up one day being good. But no elite talent. And they're not getting any elite talent in this draft. A veteran center or SF is not going to get the Raptors to the playoffs, unless they are Dwight Howard or LeBron James. And that ain't happening.

Trying to force your way into the playoffs with this group, and adding a couple of veterans, will get you a mediocre team that will perennially being fighting for a playoff spot, but never be a contender. That's not the future I'm looking for.

[SuperRaptor]

It's great to say the Raptors should build around what they have, but unfortunately what they have is a few decent players that might end up one day being good. But no elite talent. And they're not getting any elite talent in this draft. A veteran center or SF is not going to get the Raptors to the playoffs, unless they are Dwight Howard or LeBron James. And that ain't happening.

Trying to force your way into the playoffs with this group, and adding a couple of veterans, will get you a mediocre team that will perennially being fighting for a playoff spot, but never be a contender. That's not the future I'm looking for.

All im saying is use the assets that you have at your disposal to get veteran talent, we have a lot of assets at disposal here if we choose to trade the 5th pick.

1. trade bargnani
2. trade calderon
3. trade 5th pick
4. 20 mill in free cap space

by using any of the above assets or a combination of them we may be able to get the talent that we need to make the playoffs this coming year.

[SuperRaptor]

All im saying is use the assets that you have at your disposal to get veteran talent, we have a lot of assets at disposal here if we choose to trade the 5th pick.

1. trade bargnani
2. trade calderon
3. trade 5th pick
4. 20 mill in free cap space

by using any of the above assets or a combination of them we may be able to get the talent that we need to make the playoffs this coming year.

I disagree with adding another rookie into this mix, force feeding him minutes to develop him, and scrapping the upcoming season in the name of development.

[Tim W.]

All im saying is use the assets that you have at your disposal to get veteran talent, we have a lot of assets at disposal here if we choose to trade the 5th pick.

1. trade bargnani
2. trade calderon
3. trade 5th pick
4. 20 mill in free cap space

by using any of the above assets or a combination of them we may be able to get the talent that we need to make the playoffs this coming year.

Well, first of all, I have no idea where you got the $20 million in cap space from. Secondly, I don't think it would be very hard at all, with those assets, to make the playoffs next year. If that's you're only goal, it's not that hard to do. They won't ever actually DO anything once they get to the playoffs, and they'll be first round fodder every single season, but they'll make the playoffs. Even with those assets, the Raptors aren't going to be able to acquire the elite talent necessary to truly compete in the playoffs. They'll be a mediocre team. And I REALLY don't want that.

[SuperRaptor]

Well, first of all, I have no idea where you got the $20 million in cap space from. Secondly, I don't think it would be very hard at all, with those assets, to make the playoffs next year. If that's you're only goal, it's not that hard to do. They won't ever actually DO anything once they get to the playoffs, and they'll be first round fodder every single season, but they'll make the playoffs. Even with those assets, the Raptors aren't going to be able to acquire the elite talent necessary to truly compete in the playoffs. They'll be a mediocre team. And I REALLY don't want that.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm raptors will have only 40 mill tied in players next year, leaves a LOT of free cap space, probably some of the most cap space in the whole league available. There is no guarantee that drafting any of these young guys is going to make us a contender, and ive heard it mentioned many times that this is a weak draft. Its only because the draft is happening that we are like kids in a candy store and we want all the candy. But to invest time in an another young player at this point would be a mistake, this team needs veteran leadership even to assist in the development of our young assets. Ive said it all along unless the raptors get first or second in the lottery they should trade the 5 th pick. If a deal doesnt present itself that helps the team, then their is no need to force a trade, but if something comes up that adds veteran leadership to the team helps us to unload calderons contract and brings in some much needed defense at the SF or C position, I think you will see BC take that deal. Unloading calderon's contract helps us in the future too, much like drafting a rookie does, its a future consideration, and if it brings back something decent and addresses one of our needs we should capitalize on that imo.

No one is saying the raptors will win the championship next year, but I think its better for the team long term to establish a culture of winning by making the playoffs as soon as possible, than already be thinking of writing off next year, and tanking to draft more guys, teams like the clippers have been doing that for a decade, it doesnt work.

The chicago bulls went from being a .500 team to having the best record in the NBA, they signed 1 max salary guy (which the raptors can afford to do) and had one of their players take it to the next level (Rose). A team can go from being mediocre to a contendor very quick in this league, with the right management.

[SuperRaptor]

I have zero faith in Bayless developing into a starting-calibre PG; he sure as hell won't get this team (even with the added vet SF or C as you are asking for) to the playoffs in 2012. And if you package Calderon, who plays behind Bayless? TO needs a franchise PG in the worst way. I'm not saying that it should be the #1 priority this year, but it has to be high on the list.

We have to work with what we are given, the only franchise player PG is Irving who we are not getting. Like I said the bulls went from a .500 team to the best team in the league cause one guy stepped up and they picked up a veteran star free agent, I dont think the raptors are as far away from competing as you guys do. I see the development of our youth coming along at a furious pace, I see Derozan being an allstar this coming year.

Bayless played very well for us at the end of the year, and I think he deserves a shot at the starting role, I could be wrong maybe it was a fluke but when a guy averages over 20 points a game as a starter and defends better than your starting PG then you start him. Pick up someone like Flynn whos stock is down as the backup.

[Tim W.]

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm raptors will have only 40 mill tied in players next year, leaves a LOT of free cap space, probably some of the most cap space in the whole league available. There is no guarantee that drafting any of these young guys is going to make us a contender, and ive heard it mentioned many times that this is a weak draft. Its only because the draft is happening that we are like kids in a candy store and we want all the candy. But to invest time in an another young player at this point would be a mistake, this team needs veteran leadership even to assist in the development of our young assets. Ive said it all along unless the raptors get first or second in the lottery they should trade the 5 th pick. If a deal doesnt present itself that helps the team, then their is no need to force a trade, but if something comes up that adds veteran leadership to the team helps us to unload calderons contract and brings in some much needed defense at the SF or C position, I think you will see BC take that deal. Unloading calderon's contract helps us in the future too, much like drafting a rookie does, its a future consideration, and if it brings back something decent and addresses one of our needs we should capitalize on that imo.

No one is saying the raptors will win the championship next year, but I think its better for the team long term to establish a culture of winning by making the playoffs as soon as possible, than already be thinking of writing off next year, and tanking to draft more guys, teams like the clippers have been doing that for a decade, it doesnt work.

The chicago bulls went from being a .500 team to having the best record in the NBA, they signed 1 max salary guy (which the raptors can afford to do) and had one of their players take it to the next level (Rose). A team can go from being mediocre to a contendor very quick in this league, with the right management.

I have a few problems with your argument. The first is that the Raptors won't have $40 million in salaries. They'll have $45 million. And if the cap remains exactly the same, that means they'll have $13 million to spend, not $20 million. Of course, none of us have any idea WHAT the cap will be next year, and it very well could go down, depending on what the owners try and negotiate. And there are actually 8 other teams that will have either the same or less salary requirements this summer. Several of them have more talent on the roster, too.

As for the team needing veteran leadership, I disagree. It's nice to have, but if Oklahoma proved anything it's that you can allow your young players to grow together and don't need veterans to learn how to win. I do think it helps, but I don't necessarily think those veterans need to have prominent roles to help.

The Clippers are a very bad example because they have simply been mismanaged. It wasn't relying on the draft that has made them a perennial loser, it's simply bad drafting, bad trades and bad signings that have done that. Just take a look at their drafting record...
http://www.82games.com/bestdraftingteams.htm
The teams that end up in the lottery year after year are not there because they're trying to build through the draft. They're there because they're not well managed teams.

I also don't like the "tanking" suggestion. I'm not saying the team tanks, but I'm saying to continue to build with youth and not try and hurry up the process, which will likely lead to another lottery pick next year. That's not tanking.

The Chicago Bulls example doesn't work in your favour, because they already HAD a young All Star with the potential to become an elite player, as well as a potential All-Star, in Noah. The Raptors have none of that. Take away Rose and Noah, and add Boozer, and you've got a mediocre team that would struggle to make the playoffs. That would be the future of the Raptors. However much I like DeRozan, Davis and Amir, none of them are surefire All-Stars and I wouldn't be surprised if none of them ever are. You simply need more talent to start with if you want to try and make a run for the playoffs, unless simply making the playoffs is your ultimate goal.

A team definitely can go from mediocre to a contender very quickly, but you need the right pieces to be able to do that and the Raptors simply don't have those pieces yet. And they're not getting it in a trade involving Bargnani and the 5th pick.

[SuperRaptor]

I have a few problems with your argument. The first is that the Raptors won't have $40 million in salaries. They'll have $45 million. And if the cap remains exactly the same, that means they'll have $13 million to spend, not $20 million. Of course, none of us have any idea WHAT the cap will be next year, and it very well could go down, depending on what the owners try and negotiate. And there are actually 8 other teams that will have either the same or less salary requirements this summer. Several of them have more talent on the roster, too.

As for the team needing veteran leadership, I disagree. It's nice to have, but if Oklahoma proved anything it's that you can allow your young players to grow together and don't need veterans to learn how to win. I do think it helps, but I don't necessarily think those veterans need to have prominent roles to help.

The Clippers are a very bad example because they have simply been mismanaged. It wasn't relying on the draft that has made them a perennial loser, it's simply bad drafting, bad trades and bad signings that have done that. Just take a look at their drafting record...
http://www.82games.com/bestdraftingteams.htm
The teams that end up in the lottery year after year are not there because they're trying to build through the draft. They're there because they're not well managed teams.

I also don't like the "tanking" suggestion. I'm not saying the team tanks, but I'm saying to continue to build with youth and not try and hurry up the process, which will likely lead to another lottery pick next year. That's not tanking.

The Chicago Bulls example doesn't work in your favour, because they already HAD a young All Star with the potential to become an elite player, as well as a potential All-Star, in Noah. The Raptors have none of that. Take away Rose and Noah, and add Boozer, and you've got a mediocre team that would struggle to make the playoffs. That would be the future of the Raptors. However much I like DeRozan, Davis and Amir, none of them are surefire All-Stars and I wouldn't be surprised if none of them ever are. You simply need more talent to start with if you want to try and make a run for the playoffs, unless simply making the playoffs is your ultimate goal.

A team definitely can go from mediocre to a contender very quickly, but you need the right pieces to be able to do that and the Raptors simply don't have those pieces yet. And they're not getting it in a trade involving Bargnani and the 5th pick.

I see what you're saying but first of all the difference between the 40 million I say we owe next year and the 45 million you say we have committed next year are the qualifying offers for julian wright and joey dorsey which we do not have to commit to, thats how I understand it atleast. SO if I understand it correctly means we will have 18 million enough to sign a max salary guy.

Also who is to say that we will not mismanage the draft and end up picking some guy who everyone thinks is gonna be a star now, but ends up being a bust? I think BC is a competent GM and does draft well, but I have heard enough people bash him on this forum to know that he can make mistakes too. That is always a risk, just as risky as trading for a veteran or signing a free agent hoping to improve quickly.

I do think that the bulls comparison works, because look at them last year they were a .500 team that is the fact, doesnt matter who they had emerging. You say that they had an allstar emerging (Rose) and a potential allstar (Noah) well I think the same argument can be made for Derozan and Bargnani. I think the biggest difference between Chicago last year and us last year (1 game difference in standings) was the defensive philosophies of our coaches our coach didnt have one and theirs did. Look what happened to the bulls after bringing in korver, brewer, and Boozer (veteran/star free agents) they become a top tier team. Not to mention a new coach who was a defensive dictator (which hopefully we will try and get, the bulls win cause of defense more than anything. Im not saying that will happen to Toronto but it will certainly expediate the process (bringing in veterans/stars I mean).

Im not saying trade the pick no matter what, Im saying try and trade the pick to dump calderons salary and bring in some more veteran pieces if the deal presents itself. If it doesnt then pick the best player available, but certainly use the pick as bait, this is a weak draft, and the 5th overall pick is a decent asset.

[Tim W.]

I see what you're saying but first of all the difference between the 40 million I say we owe next year and the 45 million you say we have committed next year are the qualifying offers for julian wright and joey dorsey which we do not have to commit to, thats how I understand it atleast. SO if I understand it correctly means we will have 18 million enough to sign a max salary guy.

Also who is to say that we will not mismanage the draft and end up picking some guy who everyone thinks is gonna be a star now, but ends up being a bust? I think BC is a competent GM and does draft well, but I have heard enough people bash him on this forum to know that he can make mistakes too. That is always a risk, just as risky as trading for a veteran or signing a free agent hoping to improve quickly.

I do think that the bulls comparison works, because look at them last year they were a .500 team that is the fact, doesnt matter who they had emerging. You say that they had an allstar emerging (Rose) and a potential allstar (Noah) well I think the same argument can be made for Derozan and Bargnani. I think the biggest difference between Chicago last year and us last year (1 game difference in standings) was the defensive philosophies of our coaches our coach didnt have one and theirs did. Look what happened to the bulls after bringing in korver, brewer, and Boozer (veteran/star free agents) they become a top tier team. Not to mention a new coach who was a defensive dictator (which hopefully we will try and get, the bulls win cause of defense more than anything. Im not saying that will happen to Toronto but it will certainly expediate the process (bringing in veterans/stars I mean).

Im not saying trade the pick no matter what, Im saying try and trade the pick to dump calderons salary and bring in some more veteran pieces if the deal presents itself. If it doesnt then pick the best player available, but certainly use the pick as bait, this is a weak draft, and the 5th overall pick is a decent asset.

Actually, the $45 million doesn't include the qualifying offers for Dorsey and Wright. Check the calculations, yourself. And it's likely the cap will be lower, next season, which would mean the Raptors might have $10 million or less to spend. You're not exactly going to make much of an impact with that amount of money. Especially when 8 other teams, many more attractive than Toronto, have at least that or more to spend.

If Colangelo is going to mismanage, then there's really not much you can do about it. He can mismanage signing free agents or making trades just as well as he can mismanage the draft. In fact, Colangelo's strength is drafting. He's done okay at making trades and is probably below .500 in the free agent department. If I'm going to bet on Colangelo, it's going to be with the draft.

Well, I really don't think the Bulls comparison works for several reasons. The first is that the Bulls were a 41 win playoff team with an actual All-Star, a guy most thought was a future All-Star (Noah) and a pretty good all around SF who many thought, at one point, might become an All-Star. They also are an incredibly respected organization in a sought after market.

The Raptors are a 22 win team with little respect around the league, no one who was even mentioned for the All-Star game and their best player would have been probably the third or fourth best on that Bulls team. If the Raptors ended up being able to make as big a splash as the Bulls did, and make the same improvement, they would end up being a 42 win team (the Bulls went from 41 to 62 wins). In other words, they become a mediocre team. And one without an elite player like Rose which you generally need to be a true contender. The best case scenario for a team like that would be the Hawks. A good team that will never make it past the second round and will never be a true contender. The more likely scenario for a team like that is Indiana. A team that struggles to try and make the playoffs every year, but with no hope of ever going past the first round.

In other words, they would be repeating what they've been doing throughout their history. And haven't we all seen quite enough of that?

And one last thing. While I do think the Raptors have some nice young talent, to compare DeRozan and Bargnani to Rose and Noah is being far, far too optimistic. Bargnani is probably gone this summer (thank goodness) after proving he's not much more than a taller Al Harrington, a guy who shoots and nothing else, and DeRozan still has a long way to go before you can even TALK about the possibility of an All-Star game.

[SuperRaptor]

Actually, the $45 million doesn't include the qualifying offers for Dorsey and Wright. Check the calculations, yourself. And it's likely the cap will be lower, next season, which would mean the Raptors might have $10 million or less to spend. You're not exactly going to make much of an impact with that amount of money. Especially when 8 other teams, many more attractive than Toronto, have at least that or more to spend.

If Colangelo is going to mismanage, then there's really not much you can do about it. He can mismanage signing free agents or making trades just as well as he can mismanage the draft. In fact, Colangelo's strength is drafting. He's done okay at making trades and is probably below .500 in the free agent department. If I'm going to bet on Colangelo, it's going to be with the draft.

Well, I really don't think the Bulls comparison works for several reasons. The first is that the Bulls were a 41 win playoff team with an actual All-Star, a guy most thought was a future All-Star (Noah) and a pretty good all around SF who many thought, at one point, might become an All-Star. They also are an incredibly respected organization in a sought after market.

The Raptors are a 22 win team with little respect around the league, no one who was even mentioned for the All-Star game and their best player would have been probably the third or fourth best on that Bulls team. If the Raptors ended up being able to make as big a splash as the Bulls did, and make the same improvement, they would end up being a 42 win team (the Bulls went from 41 to 62 wins). In other words, they become a mediocre team. And one without an elite player like Rose which you generally need to be a true contender. The best case scenario for a team like that would be the Hawks. A good team that will never make it past the second round and will never be a true contender. The more likely scenario for a team like that is Indiana. A team that struggles to try and make the playoffs every year, but with no hope of ever going past the first round.

In other words, they would be repeating what they've been doing throughout their history. And haven't we all seen quite enough of that?

And one last thing. While I do think the Raptors have some nice young talent, to compare DeRozan and Bargnani to Rose and Noah is being far, far too optimistic. Bargnani is probably gone this summer (thank goodness) after proving he's not much more than a taller Al Harrington, a guy who shoots and nothing else, and DeRozan still has a long way to go before you can even TALK about the possibility of an All-Star game.

Well we can respectfully agree to disagree. The reality is no matter what we decide on this forum we are not the GM, so time will tell who is right.

I dont think the raptors are as far from being a good team as many others do, so no matter what happens whether we get another top 10 pick, or trade our 5th pick, or just draft the 5th, I think the raptors will be a good team next year (playoffs).

[Hassan]

if kanter drops i would take him if not then take walker, hes a true winner and you can never have enough of those guys he knows how to win and what it takes to win would be a very good leader for our young team, then i would like to see bc get another top 10 pick and take a flyer on biyombo who could be the next ben wallace