Ripples From Mavs Win Changing Views?

[mountio]

I agree all those things are extremely important in defense and having those traits certainly overcome lack of athletic ability.

However, Kidd has felt the effects of father time and it has affected his defensive game compared to 3-4 seasons ago.

This is exactly my point - Kidd might have great instincts and BBall IQ - but his lateral quickness is completely shot at this point in his career. There was a clear defensive strategic switch part way through the series to put Marion (the better defender) on Wade instead of Lebron, as Kidd simply could not handle Wade and the Mavs were suffering big time as a result.
The point remains - at this stage of their careers, a number of the Mavs key players are not good INDIVIDUAL defensive players .. yet the team has a very good defensive scheme / result due to coaching and the key contibutions of a couple of defenders.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I do think that the result has the potential to change the minds of some stars. To me, having multiple superstars on one team goes against their nature and forces them all to play out of character. Each of the "big 3" have been the alpha dog from high school to NCAA and into the NBA, where they knew they were "the man" who would be expected to dominate the ball and carry their teams. Suddenly they have to try and share the ball around and not dominate the play, which goes completely against the on-court instincts they've relied on their entire lives.

Other superstar players are bound to look at the results and re-think the idea of creating their own "big 2" or "big 3", and concentrate more on how to build the best team with themselves as "the man".

[Tim W.]

This is exactly my point - Kidd might have great instincts and BBall IQ - but his lateral quickness is completely shot at this point in his career. There was a clear defensive strategic switch part way through the series to put Marion (the better defender) on Wade instead of Lebron, as Kidd simply could not handle Wade and the Mavs were suffering big time as a result.
The point remains - at this stage of their careers, a number of the Mavs key players are not good INDIVIDUAL defensive players .. yet the team has a very good defensive scheme / result due to coaching and the key contibutions of a couple of defenders.

Having good TEAM defenders is important. No one can stop any of the really good players one on one, so you need to be able to rely on your teammates. Kidd is a good team defender. Dirk is actually a decent team defender (and better overall than most people give him credit for). And there's a reason Peja played less and less as the playoffs went on. And it's what I've been saying all along. As you get deeper in the playoffs, poor defenders are exposed more and more.

[SCass]

I saw that a 'soft,' shooting big-man can win an NBA final!!! Bargnani surely has a long way to go, but there is a chance. Pluck Chandler and Casey from Dallas and I think we would be improving his odds.

[RAPresenting]

This is exactly my point - Kidd might have great instincts and BBall IQ - but his lateral quickness is completely shot at this point in his career. There was a clear defensive strategic switch part way through the series to put Marion (the better defender) on Wade instead of Lebron, as Kidd simply could not handle Wade and the Mavs were suffering big time as a result.
The point remains - at this stage of their careers, a number of the Mavs key players are not good INDIVIDUAL defensive players .. yet the team has a very good defensive scheme / result due to coaching and the key contibutions of a couple of defenders.

Wade had success in the open court on Kidd but who in the league can stay in front of him in that situation. Kidd's defense on Wade (Kobe in the LA series) allows Terry the job of defending guys like Chalmers, Bibby (Fisher in LA series) so he's not exhausting himself on both ends. He's not the quickest guy but rarely gets exposed. Great hands, always in the right spot, excellent help and defends the post well up against SG makes him a stud in my books.

[Maleko]

I do think that the result has the potential to change the minds of some stars. To me, having multiple superstars on one team goes against their nature and forces them all to play out of character. Each of the "big 3" have been the alpha dog from high school to NCAA and into the NBA, where they knew they were "the man" who would be expected to dominate the ball and carry their teams. Suddenly they have to try and share the ball around and not dominate the play, which goes completely against the on-court instincts they've relied on their entire lives.

Other superstar players are bound to look at the results and re-think the idea of creating their own "big 2" or "big 3", and concentrate more on how to build the best team with themselves as "the man".

I think it is more important to look at where the big whatevers play by position. I think it won't work in any situation where the two stars are wings. If at least one of the big is a C, or maybe a PG then that changes things. In light of that, if Howard were to join Wade (or vice-versa) I think it would be powerful. I really think that the Heat would do better trading Lebron than they would trading Bosh. For one they could command a lot more in return, and if they get a guy like Howard for Lebron they would truly be a force, but keeping Wade and Lebron together I think is the one way they will only challenge mediocrity in playoffs for years to come.

[Bendit]

Only thing I saw in the Finals that applies to the Raps is that Barea absolutely killed the Heat, and it made me think someone like Kemba Walker's got a real shot to do something special in the league. And Walker isn't really even that small

Maybe the way they ran the zone showed that it can be a primary defensive option if you have the coach to teach it properly and the players to carry it out the same.

It really is the extreme quickness and while I agree with the use of Barea, he is a backup talent who would get exposed in a starting role. KW is also my choice if Kanter is unavailable (a good big man is more difficult to acquire...read Chandler).

[Mediumcore]

I do think that the result has the potential to change the minds of some stars. To me, having multiple superstars on one team goes against their nature and forces them all to play out of character. Each of the "big 3" have been the alpha dog from high school to NCAA and into the NBA, where they knew they were "the man" who would be expected to dominate the ball and carry their teams. Suddenly they have to try and share the ball around and not dominate the play, which goes completely against the on-court instincts they've relied on their entire lives.

Other superstar players are bound to look at the results and re-think the idea of creating their own "big 2" or "big 3", and concentrate more on how to build the best team with themselves as "the man".

Actually, I think that what the heat have done more than anything else would solidify the idea of star players teaming up. They did make the finals after all and had the chance to compete for a ring. That opportunity has been dominated by the Lakers and Boston for the last 3 years because they have "Super Teams" themselves.

[Bendit]

This doesn't make anyone think that Casey's odds of being the Raptors' next head coach have gone up?

It also increases the odds that he might get better offers!

[mountio]

[/B]

Actually, I think that what the heat have done more than anything else would solidify the idea of star players teaming up. They did make the finals after all and had the chance to compete for a ring. That opportunity has been dominated by the Lakers and Boston for the last 3 years because they have "Super Teams" themselves.

Exactly. It took totally uncharacteristic performances from their best player (Lebron) in order for another team to even be competitive with them. Thats with less than 12 months to gel an all time bad supporting cast. Everyone is totally overreacting here .. lets not forget they dismantled Bos and Chi just a few weeks ago. They will be the overwhelming favourite to win the title next year (and the year after, and so on). Dissapointing for them - sure .. but no need to panic here ..

[Matt52]

It also increases the odds that he might get better offers!

Buzz kill! lol

[BayCityBaller]

Exactly. It took totally uncharacteristic performances from their best player (Lebron) in order for another team to even be competitive with them. Thats with less than 12 months to gel an all time bad supporting cast. Everyone is totally overreacting here .. lets not forget they dismantled Bos and Chi just a few weeks ago. They will be the overwhelming favourite to win the title next year (and the year after, and so on). Dissapointing for them - sure .. but no need to panic here ..

I don't think anyone on this board would actually "panic". Actually, I think 99.9% of this board has a big old shit-eating grin on their face right now after watching LBJ and Bosh get their just desserts! Those two deserved this loss. They treated the fans and organizations that brought them into this league like dirt. Now, look what they got!

On another note, good luck in getting anyone else to join them after watching the complete melt-down of the self-titled King. If I am a FA this year, I wouldn't be overly-inclined to join that squad. Despite the talent level of the big three, the over-inflated egos are obviously an issue. Eat a slice of humble pie "Big Three"!

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I think it is more important to look at where the big whatevers play by position. I think it won't work in any situation where the two stars are wings. If at least one of the big is a C, or maybe a PG then that changes things. In light of that, if Howard were to join Wade (or vice-versa) I think it would be powerful. I really think that the Heat would do better trading Lebron than they would trading Bosh. For one they could command a lot more in return, and if they get a guy like Howard for Lebron they would truly be a force, but keeping Wade and Lebron together I think is the one way they will only challenge mediocrity in playoffs for years to come.

I agree with you 100%. If I was Miami, I'd trade Lebron before I traded Bosh. Not only would he net you more in return, but it's the Lebron/Wade duplication that is the bigger issue. I think a "big 2" would work, as long as one star is a big (C/PF) and the other star is a ball-handling wing (SF/SG/PG).

In fact, I think it could be argued that the league has seen many "big 2" teams win championship:
Lakers (Shaq & Kobe)
Heat (Shaq & Wade)
Lakers (Gasol & Kobe)
Rockets (Olajuwon & Drexler)
Boston (Garnet & Pearce) - Allen had name recognition, but never dominated the ball, he was a good defender and outside shooter to compliment their "big 2"

If I were Dwight Howard, I'd be licking my lips at the thought of teaming up with D-Will or CP3 in a couple years.


At the end of the day though, what matters as much as your "big 2" is the supporting cast you have.
- no big egos; guys who are ok being second fiddle
- good team defenders with at least 1 solid inside last-line-of-defence type of defender
- good outside shooting

[e2thed]

So whos the best team in Texas come next season, if there is one.

[planetmars]

I agree with you 100%. If I was Miami, I'd trade Lebron before I traded Bosh. Not only would he net you more in return, but it's the Lebron/Wade duplication that is the bigger issue. I think a "big 2" would work, as long as one star is a big (C/PF) and the other star is a ball-handling wing (SF/SG/PG).

I agree, but the reason I do is because Lebron does not have a post up game. And because of that he needs the ball in his hands. Wade works the best with the ball in his hands, but that makes sense since he is a true shooting guard. Lebron on the other hand can do much more. I'm just not sure if he wants to.

I saw a lot of Pippen in him, in this series, and in the Chicago series. He is an outstanding defensive player. But if he learned how to be a threat as a post up player, then I think Wade and Lebron can co-exist, and would be very dangerous. If Lebron was coached by the right person (and I think only Phil Jackson or Riley would be those guys), then you don't need to trade the NBA's best player. However if he is unwilling to change, then I'd start looking for trades as well. But to be honest, is that a trade Riley would be willing to make?

[mountio]

I don't think anyone on this board would actually "panic". Actually, I think 99.9% of this board has a big old shit-eating grin on their face right now after watching LBJ and Bosh get their just desserts! Those two deserved this loss. They treated the fans and organizations that brought them into this league like dirt. Now, look what they got!

On another note, good luck in getting anyone else to join them after watching the complete melt-down of the self-titled King. If I am a FA this year, I wouldn't be overly-inclined to join that squad. Despite the talent level of the big three, the over-inflated egos are obviously an issue. Eat a slice of humble pie "Big Three"!

All very resonable reactions. I think its totally fine to feel great because these guys got what was coming to them given the way they acted. But, thats very different from claiming their model is wrong, they need to make trades or anything of the like. They are the envy of the NBA for the next 5-7 years. They didnt get their first title this year .. but name me a franchise that would trade places with them??

[Bendit]

.....claiming their model is wrong, they need to make trades or anything of the like.

Addendum to our posts on the main page.

Their model is flawed. I reiterate, having 2 great wings (plus Bosh) who want the ball in their hands and have yet to overcome the psychological barrier to playing off the ball/deferring yet being effective, no centre defensive presence and no point guard in my view is a flawed team. They ploughed thru the playoffs until the finals because they overcame other more flawed teams thru their sheer talent. Over and above they also need a more effective bench. You may think otherwise but Riley will make/must changes in order to become a more "traditional" team. Other teams are going to learn from what the Mavs did and arent going to just lie down.

[ceez]

They're going to trade bosh, just wait.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I agree, but the reason I do is because Lebron does not have a post up game. And because of that he needs the ball in his hands. Wade works the best with the ball in his hands, but that makes sense since he is a true shooting guard. Lebron on the other hand can do much more. I'm just not sure if he wants to.

I saw a lot of Pippen in him, in this series, and in the Chicago series. He is an outstanding defensive player. But if he learned how to be a threat as a post up player, then I think Wade and Lebron can co-exist, and would be very dangerous. If Lebron was coached by the right person (and I think only Phil Jackson or Riley would be those guys), then you don't need to trade the NBA's best player. However if he is unwilling to change, then I'd start looking for trades as well. But to be honest, is that a trade Riley would be willing to make?

If you look at my original post, you'll see that the whole basis for my argument was the fact that both Lebron and Wade NEED to have the ball in their hand and NEED to be the dominant go-to guy. I don't think they will ever adapt, as this is how they have always suceeded in basketball and it is their natural instinct and their greatest strength. To force them to play another way would stifle their basketball skills and natural tendencies on the court, essentially making them less of a player. I think that the team concept is more important than a "team" of individual stars who don't have the skills/personalities to mesh together. Superstars can play together, but they will each be sacrificing part of what made them a superstar in the first place.

If you're making Lebron play like somebody other than Lebron, why keep Lebron? For his salary you could get several great players who could effectively play multiple positions and gel with the team much more effectively and lots of draft picks to stock up on cheap, good, young talent to help sustain a solid team for years to come.

[Maleko]

If you look at my original post, you'll see that the whole basis for my argument was the fact that both Lebron and Wade NEED to have the ball in their hand and NEED to be the dominant go-to guy. I don't think they will ever adapt, as this is how they have always suceeded in basketball and it is their natural instinct and their greatest strength. To force them to play another way would stifle their basketball skills and natural tendencies on the court, essentially making them less of a player. I think that the team concept is more important than a "team" of individual stars who don't have the skills/personalities to mesh together. Superstars can play together, but they will each be sacrificing part of what made them a superstar in the first place.

And by your comments this word would actually be 'group', since they would not truly be a team.

For his salary you could get several great players who could effectively play multiple positions

or perhaps even Dwight...