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Thread: Ripples From Mavs Win Changing Views?

  1. #41
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    They're going to trade bosh, just wait.
    I think E-Spo is going to get fired eventually, and the team's role players are going to get tossed aside. I don't think the political will is there to punish the SuperFriends to the extent of shipping one of them out. It isn't so much that they all play a similar style, which they do, it's that all of the role players play that style too. In other words, even Haslem, Miller, Chalmers, et al. play like Wade, Bosh and so froth. The roster at large doesn't have any flexibility to it. They can only play the small ball/speed game. And if LeBron is off in space, as he was in the finals for whatever reason, they're vulnerable.

    So whos the best team in Texas come next season, if there is one.
    Dallas and its 6 fans have a huge asset, Caron Butler's $10.5 million expiring contract, that they can use to bring in another star. They should be the best Texas team for a couple of years, but by 2k14 they may be the worst team in the league.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    not to mention they have corey brewer waiting in the wings. he can start at sf from day 1 next season.
    @jerboat

  3. #43
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    if anything, we've learned cuban is a obnoxious dude, but a master at getting a contender under the salary cap. they'll be good as long as dirk is playing.
    @jerboat

  4. #44
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    I definitely think it changes things. I think it will even impact the heat this off-season. What it says to me is that a strong team beats good individual players. However, when I say strong team, I do not mean just role-players, I mean ex-stars who understand that they can be effective by focusing on a niche. That's what Miami lacks that Dallas has. Miami has superstars LBJ. D-Wade and Shitbag Bosh. Their supporting cast is made up of decent role players like Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, Mike Bibby, Anthony, Dampier, etc. They are good role-players. Mavs have a bonifide star in Dirk, and ex-superstar Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, and Jason Terry. Each of them earlier in their careers were superstars who earned trademark nicknames. Rather than continue to pretend they are all-stars (like t-mac and carter did whent hey began to wash up), they refined their games and accepted roles. These roles are needed to make the team operate optimally. The Celtics almost had this model with J-O and Shaq but their superstars (Peirce, KG, Allen) have finally hit the age wall and dont perform at star level anymore. If they could bring in a current superstar (ie. Dwight, Derrick Rose, etc) to partner with their current aging stars, you'd have a guaranteed Celtics chanpionship. To me, the Mavs championship give veterans and aging stars a new role in this league, and a new way to structure a team to win. Miami needs ex-stars who are still playing at a high-level to accept a paycut and a new role in order to move forward. Sorry T-Mac and Vince, too late for you.

  5. #45
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    This finals, like last finals was vet team versus vet team. That's not the model that the Raptors will or should follow. Rather OKC, Memphis, Atlanta, Chicago is the correct model. A core of all-star young talent surrounded by the right group of vets, with the right coach to coach them.

    The only thing this changes is that Casey should be introduced as the new coach, by the end of the week.
    -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
    -"ďI ainít no diva! I donít have no blond hair, red hair. Iím Reggie Evans.Ē

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    keeping Wade and Lebron together I think is the one way they will only challenge mediocrity in playoffs for years to come.
    Do you call getting NBA finals mediocrity? Because that's the kind of mediocrity I could get used to.

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I saw a lot of Pippen in him, in this series, and in the Chicago series...
    So does Steve Kerr!
    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    However if he is unwilling to change, then I'd start looking for trades as well. But to be honest, is that a trade Riley would be willing to make?
    No way Riley trades Lebron (although I agree, he needs a post game) or even Bosh next season (I don't care what you say Arse!), Miami is going to focus on adding pieces, They have as big a whole at PG and Center as we do. You move Tyson Chandler from Dallas to Miami, or even a good defensive rebounder like Chris Anderson and you have a team that is can hang around even if/when Lebron checks out.

    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Addendum to our posts on the main page.

    Their model is flawed. I reiterate, having 2 great wings (plus Bosh) who want the ball in their hands and have yet to overcome the psychological barrier to playing off the ball/deferring yet being effective, no centre defensive presence and no point guard in my view is a flawed team. They ploughed thru the playoffs until the finals because they overcame other more flawed teams thru their sheer talent. Over and above they also need a more effective bench. You may think otherwise but Riley will make/must changes in order to become a more "traditional" team. Other teams are going to learn from what the Mavs did and arent going to just lie down.
    I think your sample size is still too small. I don't think the heat lost because of the problem of Lebron and Wade not knowing who was supposed to step up. I think they failed because of Lebron's personality and the fact that this is their first year together, and their second unit was arguably the worst 2nd unit in the NBA both regular season and post season. Now if the new CBA hinders their ability to get a better second unit/fill the holes at PG and C then you can argue it is a failed model. But as of right now I would say the jury is out.

    Losing in the NBA finals is ONLY a failure because of the expectations those players had and the way they conducted themselves in the media. Only two teams a year get to play in the finals, and the Heat had a surprisingly easy path (on the back of some uncharacteristically good 3 pt shooting, which returned to normal in the finals) through the Eastern Conference. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed thing that they will get there every year, and I'm certainly not cheering for them. However, look at the rest of conference,

    Chicago is on the rise and will probably make things harder for them,

    NY and NJ are willing to spend money, but whether that translates to Conference Finals material is not a sure thing for either.

    Orlando looks burdened by bad contracts, which meant mean the end of the Dwight era.
    Boston might be at the end of their run and if not now then soon.
    Atlanta looks like it's on a treadmill. Sure they went to the second round this year, but does anyone see them getting to the conference finals with their current team?

    If you look at the competition in the East, outside of Chicago can anyone really compete? The only way would be if Dwight went to New Jersey/Brooklyn or New York/Chicago (Which I don't think is likely based on cap considerations). I don't think you can count the heat out for the next few years already.


    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    if anything, we've learned cuban is a obnoxious dude, but a master at getting a contender under the salary cap. they'll be good as long as dirk is playing.
    Under the salary cap? Am I confused? I thought Dallas had the second highest payroll in the NBA after the Lakers. Am I missing something?

    PS. I am now a huge Mark Cuban fan. He has everything I want to see in an owner. Passion, open wallet, and a belief in advanced metrics. We should all be so lucky. He even stepped up and shut his mouth this post season, and having the founding owner and his wife being the ones to receive the Championship trophy was pure class. A phrase I never thought I'd use on him.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Mon Jun 13th, 2011 at 05:19 PM.
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  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Addendum to our posts on the main page.

    Their model is flawed. I reiterate, having 2 great wings (plus Bosh) who want the ball in their hands and have yet to overcome the psychological barrier to playing off the ball/deferring yet being effective, no centre defensive presence and no point guard in my view is a flawed team. They ploughed thru the playoffs until the finals because they overcame other more flawed teams thru their sheer talent. Over and above they also need a more effective bench. You may think otherwise but Riley will make/must changes in order to become a more "traditional" team. Other teams are going to learn from what the Mavs did and arent going to just lie down.
    There is a big difference between being a perfect team and not being flawed. To me, a flawed team is one that can not succeed. This Heat team has clearly shown already that they can succeed and are very likely to continue to show that next year once they are able to gel.
    Would they be better with a better PG, C and bench? Of course! Thats a no brainer .. no one would debate that. But - would I give up LBJ or Wade to get a decent PG and center? Not in a million years. Im all for crafting a balanced team - especially if you have to due to lack of talent. But - if you can get talent in the NBA - you take it. Stars win - that is and always has been the way of the NBA.
    Riley will make changes (thats what all good GMs do). But he doesnt have to do anything. This team will be favoured to win the NBA title day one if they keep their exact same roster. That is a fact. See below (btw - the Raps are dead last!)

    Miami Heat 5/2
    Los Angeles Lakers 11/2
    Chicago Bulls 6/1
    Oklahoma City Thunder 8/1
    Dallas Mavericks 10/1
    Boston Celtics 12/1
    San Antonio Spurs 20/1
    Orlando Magic 22/1
    New York Knicks 28/1
    Portland Trailblazers 30/1
    Atlanta Hawks 40/1
    Denver Nuggets 40/1
    Memphis Grizzlies 40/1
    New Orleans Hornets 45/1
    Houston Rockets 50/1
    Utah Jazz 60/1
    New Jersey Nets 65/1
    Philadelphia 76ers 65/1
    Phoenix Suns 65/1
    Charlotte Bobcats 75/1
    Indiana Pacers 75/1
    Los Angeles Clippers 75/1
    Cleveland Cavaliers 100/1
    Detroit Pistons 100/1
    Golden State Warriors 100/1
    Milwaukee Bucks 100/1
    Minnesota Timberwolves 100/1
    Sacramento Kings 100/1
    Washington Wizards 100/1
    Toronto Raptors 150/1

  8. #48
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    It also increases the odds that he might get better offers!
    Is there anyone besides the Pistons still looking for a coach?

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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    Is there anyone besides the Pistons still looking for a coach?
    At this time no, well Indiana if they do not remove the interim label from Vogel which it appears they will.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Do you call getting NBA finals mediocrity? Because that's the kind of mediocrity I could get used to.
    You assume they will be there every year, I don't. I don't see Lebron and Wade as a good fit, I see the egos getting worse to maintain, especially since I see Wade as the better player. So getting past the history of these finals, I say the will be in playoff mediocrity.

  11. #51
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    You assume they will be there every year, I don't. I don't see Lebron and Wade as a good fit, I see the egos getting worse to maintain, especially since I see Wade as the better player. So getting past the history of these finals, I say the will be in playoff mediocrity.
    You might be right (obviously no one knows for sure)... but popular sentiment (and vegas odds) are very much against you ..

  12. #52
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    I already smell the heat contacting the magic about a S&T for Bosh since Dwight just announced he will be testing the market Lol

  13. #53
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    Quote visko23 wrote: View Post
    I already smell the heat contacting the magic about a S&T for Bosh since Dwight just announced he will be testing the market Lol
    And the magic will say they want Lebron or no chance.

  14. #54
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    Here's the thing about trading Lebron. Who do you trade him for? Dwight Howard.... and who else?

    Besides being an extremely limited pool of players/assets one could ever trade for Lebron, if the problem is both Wade and Lebron needing the ball in their hands, well taking another top notch wing or PG isn't putting the ball in Wade's hands. Getting a PF makes no sense as they already have Bosh (unless you want to push him into a position he has already proven he can't fully suceed at). So a C is the only option. And who is good enough that plays C?

    The only option is Dwight.

    So if making a move is 'necessary' the only reasonable option is getting Dwight or trading Bosh.

    Now, that said, prior to this season starting I to thought if Miami doesn't win it all Bosh gets traded. I'm changing that tune... I think Lebron saved Bosh's ass by being so inept this finals he ends up taking all the blame for the loss.

    So what happens (if anything)?:

    1)they try to add some better peices this offseason
    2)Spoelstra fired and Pat takes over if they get off to a bad to mediocre start (maybe this offseason)
    3)Bosh traded if they don't look like the team to beat by the trade deadline.

    Honestly Bosh should be thanking Lebron for looking so terrible these finals. If he wasn't and Miami lost... man being the guy who is traded on that team after this offseason's antics could be up there with one of the biggest ego shots in basketball history. (maybe those were tears of joy he was crying after the series?)

  15. #55
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    The problem with Miami is that Wade and James have too similar of a playing style to co-exist together. I know the prevailing opinion is that Bosh should be traded should Riley decided to break up the big 3 but in reality, it should be James or Wade. I think Bosh/Lebron or Wade/Bosh would be fine as they complement each other. If you move James for an elite point guard (ie Chris Paul), and team Paul, Bosh, and Wade, you'd win as all three players can comfortably play their own unique styles and complement each other. Watching Miami all year, it was clear that they were never really in sync. Bosh, Wade, and James all looked lost. Some of that is on Coach Spo but in reality, it's just not a natural meshing of talents.

    As for Bosh, I wonder if he regrets leaving Toronto now? It will be a long summer for him. Imagine having to go back home to Dallas and listen to his own hometown people remind him of who won.

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    Quote jd4 wrote: View Post
    The problem with Miami is that Wade and James have too similar of a playing style to co-exist together. I know the prevailing opinion is that Bosh should be traded should Riley decided to break up the big 3 but in reality, it should be James or Wade. I think Bosh/Lebron or Wade/Bosh would be fine as they complement each other. If you move James for an elite point guard (ie Chris Paul), and team Paul, Bosh, and Wade, you'd win as all three players can comfortably play their own unique styles and complement each other. Watching Miami all year, it was clear that they were never really in sync. Bosh, Wade, and James all looked lost. Some of that is on Coach Spo but in reality, it's just not a natural meshing of talents.

    As for Bosh, I wonder if he regrets leaving Toronto now? It will be a long summer for him. Imagine having to go back home to Dallas and listen to his own hometown people remind him of who won.
    I highly doubt it. Sure they lost and there was very negative media around them much of the year, but he still got to play in the finals.

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Rookie Boko's Avatar
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    Default jd4 hit the nail on the head

    [QUOTE=jd4;88008] The problem with Miami is that Wade and James have too similar of a playing style to co-exist together. I know the prevailing opinion is that Bosh should be traded should Riley decided to break up the big 3 but in reality, it should be James or Wade. I think Bosh/Lebron or Wade/Bosh would be fine as they complement each other. If you move James for an elite point guard (ie Chris Paul), and team Paul, Bosh, and Wade, you'd win as all three players can comfortably play their own unique styles and complement each other. Watching Miami all year, it was clear that they were never really in sync. Bosh, Wade, and James all looked lost. Some of that is on Coach Spo but in reality, it's just not a natural meshing of talents. [QUOTE]

    I agree with you totally. In fact, I'll take it one step further ... each team needs one megastar, one superstar, one star & 5 role-players (all of whom are above average at what they do do), and all 8 cannot trip over each other. And, yes, like you, jd4, I would prefer one star to be a C/PF, one a SF/SG & one to be a PG. How about trade Bosh & change for Dwight Howard, & (make Wade the PG OR trade him for Chris Paul)?
    Last edited by Boko; Tue Jun 14th, 2011 at 02:48 AM. Reason: additions, modifications

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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I highly doubt it. Sure they lost and there was very negative media around them much of the year, but he still got to play in the finals.
    And be on national television.

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    Quote Boko wrote: View Post
    I agree with you totally. In fact, I'll take it one step further ... each team needs one megastar, one superstar, one star & 5 role-players (all of whom are above average at what they do do), and all 8 cannot trip over each other. And, yes, like you, jd4, I would prefer one star to be a C/PF, one a SF/SG & one to be a PG. How about trade Bosh & change for Dwight Howard, & (make Wade the PG OR trade him for Chris Paul)?
    I think the very fact that both Dallas and Miami made it to the finals just proves there is no hard and fast rule about how you build a team.

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    Quote jd4 wrote: View Post
    The problem with Miami is that Wade and James have too similar of a playing style to co-exist together. I know the prevailing opinion is that Bosh should be traded should Riley decided to break up the big 3 but in reality, it should be James or Wade. I think Bosh/Lebron or Wade/Bosh would be fine as they complement each other. If you move James for an elite point guard (ie Chris Paul), and team Paul, Bosh, and Wade, you'd win as all three players can comfortably play their own unique styles and complement each other. Watching Miami all year, it was clear that they were never really in sync. Bosh, Wade, and James all looked lost. Some of that is on Coach Spo but in reality, it's just not a natural meshing of talents.

    As for Bosh, I wonder if he regrets leaving Toronto now? It will be a long summer for him. Imagine having to go back home to Dallas and listen to his own hometown people remind him of who won.
    James - Wade, the best back court in the NBA on a team that just made the NBA finals:

    1) have a problem
    2) can't co-exist
    3) never really in sync
    4) look lost

    If thats miami after 1 year then whats up with Durant/Westbrook in OKC... 3 years and haven't even gotten that close? Time to tear that down? Portland I'm assuming is just plain screwed. Chicago should probably move Derek Rose as its clear he can't do it with Noah, Boozer and Deng... he's had 3 years. Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum.... man were those guys frontrunners. Trade kobe. Orlando? What do they do? No chance.

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