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Thread: Does Jose Barea's display open more RR faithful to Kemba?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    i think the moral of the story is Kemba's going to be a player. if you don't like him, fine, but if you think he's not going to be good you're delusional.
    @jerboat

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I agree, he will be a good player, but I think long term he will not be a starter (again, I'm glad to be wrong if the Raptors chose the guy).

  3. #43
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Why do you feel he will not be a starter?

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    tell that to Tim
    At what point did I say that any of my main issues with Kemba was his height? Holy crap. Do you people even READ comments?
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    i think the moral of the story is Kemba's going to be a player. if you don't like him, fine, but if you think he's not going to be good you're delusional.
    Why?
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  6. #46
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Tim, I thought you were pro Kemba.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I haven't been following the posts in this thread, but the title should be changed from Jose Barea to Dirk Nowitzki. Kemba (at least in college) is the type of player that everyone jumps on their back, just like Dirk.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why do you feel he will not be a starter?
    For the same reasons I mentioned previously. His size and speed will allow him to be a dynamic scoring combo guard, but his inability to check bigger guards due to lack of size, will make him a liability on defense. I'm projecting he follows in the foot steps of Ben Gordon.

  9. #49
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    For the same reasons I mentioned previously. His size and speed will allow him to be a dynamic scoring combo guard, but his inability to check bigger guards due to lack of size, will make him a liability on defense. I'm projecting he follows in the foot steps of Ben Gordon.
    He's the same height as Rondo and Rondo is the best defensive PG in the league. More goes into defense than size. A lot more. We both know Andrea Bargnani.

    Also, he's not going to be Ben Gordon. Before this season he was more of a facilitator? Why? Because his coach told him to be that kind of player. This season he still sported good facilitator numbers but he shot a lot more. Why? Because his coach told him to. It's well documented that this season he shot the ball more out of necessity and not because he's a natural scoring PG. He played the role his coaches told him to play. I can understand why you would think Ben Gordon if you don't want to look beyond the stat sheet but there was a lot more going on. If the stat sheet was all that mattered you'd never see a draft combine, player interviews and private workouts. Hell, we could toss game film out the window for that matter.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Tim, I thought you were pro Kemba.
    I'm ambivalent towards him. I would't be upset if the Raptors drafted him, as I think he's got some major skills, but I have some nagging questions about him. I would prefer Kemba over Knight, because I think Kemba's far more of a PG than Knight, and I hate the idea of drafting a guy who needs to learn the PG position. Kanter is my first choice, and a guy I would like to see them actually trade up to try and get, but if they keep the pick and Kanter's gone, then Kemba might be the best choice. How's that for a long winded answer that tells you basically nothing? That pretty much sums up my feelings about this draft!
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    We're sort of going in circles on this one, so lets just agree to disagree. I've already mentioned that Paul and Rondo are exceptions and my point is not that Kemba can't be as good, but instead that the odds are that he won't be. Ben Gordon's numbers as a facilitator in college are similar to Kemba's ... both around 4.7 assists/game.

    Regarding the role he played being what the coach asked of him. Sure it sounds good, but if I was a coach wanting the best for my player and also to attract other players to UCONN I would say the same thing too.

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I haven't been following the posts in this thread, but the title should be changed from Jose Barea to Dirk Nowitzki. Kemba (at least in college) is the type of player that everyone jumps on their back, just like Dirk.
    Hopefully they both have very strong backs.
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He's the same height as Rondo and Rondo is the best defensive PG in the league. More goes into defense than size. A lot more. We both know Andrea Bargnani.
    People really need to get off the height issue. Unless we're worried about his ability to headbutt the ball, or talking about his body frame, why are we constantly bringing up his height?

    What I'd really like to see in these constant comparisons to Rondo is not whether they're the same height, but whether they have the same wingspan and reach. I'm pretty sure just from looking at them that Rondo is on one extreme and Walker is on the other. I'd rather Walker be compared to Paul; at least their wingspans and reach are similar!

  14. #54
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    More goes into defense than size. Rondo would be a good defender no matter if he had the same measurements as Paul.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    More goes into defense than size. Rondo would be a good defender no matter if he had the same measurements as Paul.
    Yes, more, but you can't possibly be arguing that his 6'9" wingspan is not a factor. Rondo might still have the instincts and commitment of a good defender, but having the wingspan of a player much, much bigger than him surely helps (i.e. he has the same wingspan as DeRozan!). He certainly wouldn't be as good as he is now if he had Walker's 6'3.5" wingspan and 7'7.5" standing reach.

  16. #56
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Yes, more, but you can't possibly be arguing that his 6'9" wingspan is not a factor.
    Did I say that? Most defensive battles are won by hard work, tenacity, research and basketball IQ. Size can help a lot but if you don't have the right stuff it doesn't matter how big you are. I am telling you and everybody else that Kemba Walker has the most important factors locked down. He's not going to be a bad defender, no way, no how. You don't draft a PG to be your lock down defender, you draft him to quarterback your offense and hopefully lead your team. Secondary you want him to be able to defend. Kemba is a leader and has proven year after year that he can quarterback a team, be aggressive AND still take care of the ball. He's proven to be extrmely fast and athletic with a desire to defend. He has all he needs to defend in the NBA. Will he be a lock down defender? Probably not but he won't be a bad defender either. I'm willing to bet he's a lot better on defense than Jose Calderon from day one. He won't be a liability on defense and I'd love for somebody to prove that statement to be wrong by saying something other than "he's 6'0" or 6'1"" so that I can move on.


    • Later quickness allows a PG to stay in front of his man.
    • Sprinting speed allows a PG to keep up with his man on the fast break.
    • Height does... What? Is Kemba going to be expected to be blocking threes and mid range shots? Does it matter if he's getting a lot of steals if he's playing resonsible defense by staying in front of his man and challenging shots?
    • Mass does... What? Is Kemba going to be banging with people down low on the block?

    Can Brandon Knight to either of those last two things?

  17. #57
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    Default Rough calculation of average height of a starting PG

    Steve Nash: 6'3"
    Rajon Rondo: 6'1"
    Deron Williams: 6'3"
    Chris Paul 6'0"
    Jose Calderon: 6'3"
    Raymond Felton: 6'1"
    John Wall: 6'4"
    Jason Kidd: 6'4"
    Russell Westbrook: 6'3"
    Derrick Rose: 6'3"
    Devin Harris: 6'3"
    Andre Miller: 6'2"
    Kyle Lowry: 6'0"
    Tony Parker: 6'2"
    Mike Conley: 6'1"
    Jrue Hollidy: 6'4"
    D.J. Augustin: 6'0"
    Jameer Nelson: 6'0"
    Steph Curry: 6'3"
    Chauncey Billups: 6'3"
    Ramon Sessions: 6'3"
    Rodney Stuckey: 6'5"
    Darren Collison: 6'0"
    Ty Lawson: 5'11"
    Beno Udrih: 6'3"
    Derrick Rose: 6'3"
    Derrick Fisher: 6'1"
    Mario Chalmers: 6'2"
    Mo Williams: 6'1"
    Jonny Flynn: 6'0"
    AVERAGE HEIGHT: 6'2"

    Kemba Walker combine measurement: 6'1"

  18. #58
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Did I say that? Most defensive battles are won by hard work, tenacity, research and basketball IQ. Size can help a lot but if you don't have the right stuff it doesn't matter how big you are. I am telling you and everybody else that Kemba Walker has the most important factors locked down. He's not going to be a bad defender, no way, no how. You don't draft a PG to be your lock down defender, you draft him to quarterback your offense and hopefully lead your team. Secondary you want him to be able to defend. Kemba is a leader and has proven year after year that he can quarterback a team, be aggressive AND still take care of the ball. He's proven to be extrmely fast and athletic with a desire to defend. He has all he needs to defend in the NBA. Will he be a lock down defender? Probably not but he won't be a bad defender either. I'm willing to bet he's a lot better on defense than Jose Calderon from day one. He won't be a liability on defense and I'd love for somebody to prove that statement to be wrong by saying something other than "he's 6'0" or 6'1"" so that I can move on.
    You don't think it was inferred from the Walker/Rondo comparison?

    It's one thing to say Kemba won't be a bad defender (and I'm inclined to agree) and another to constantly bring up Rondo and his all-NBA defense. Kemba isn't going to be challenging Rondo for best defensive guard any time soon. If that wasn't your point, why bring up Rondo at all? The two players couldn't be any more different.

    And I don't know how Calderon's defense is relevant at all. I never argued that Walker would be worse than Calderon defensively. I only said don't compare him to Rondo.

    Everyone on this board needs to take a step back from this draft. Somehow we went from this being a weak draft to it being chock full of all-star talent. I don't know what to call it, but remember back in the day, sitting in a class devoid of any eye candy, how certain people would start to look more and more desirable? That's this year's draft. If Harrison Baines, Perry Jones and Jared Sullinger didn't pull out (meaning the top 6 would be, in no particular order, Baines, Jones, Sullinger, Irving, Williams and Kanter), would we be sitting here making Kemba sound like he has unlimited ceiling and absolutely no flaws?

    I've never said Walker would be a flop; I think he's certainly capable of putting up very good Damon-like numbers on a bad team. Yet it seems the mere idea that he might not be an All-Star starter on a contending team is highly offensive. If everyone's opinion came true about this draft, it'd be one of the strongest in years. Already we have (by different people) Walker compared to Zeke/Iverson/Paul/Rondo, Faried to Rodman, Leonard to Wallace/Kirilenko, Fredette to Mark Price, (Darius) Morris to Andre Miller, Valanciunas to some All-NBA defensive center, Singleton to some All-NBA defensive wing, and that's not even including Irving, Williams, Kanter, Knight and the likes of Marshon Brooks and Iman Shumpert.

  19. #59
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    Apollo, your last two posts must not be addressed to me, because:

    1) I've never wanted us to draft Knight either; and

    2) Well, just take a look at what I posted earlier (and it's not the first time either!).

    People really need to get off the height issue. Unless we're worried about his ability to headbutt the ball, or talking about his body frame, why are we constantly bringing up his height?
    So again, why are we talking about his height?

  20. #60
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    You don't think it was inferred from the Walker/Rondo comparison?

    It's one thing to say Kemba won't be a bad defender (and I'm inclined to agree) and another to constantly bring up Rondo and his all-NBA defense. Kemba isn't going to be challenging Rondo for best defensive guard any time soon. If that wasn't your point, why bring up Rondo at all? The two players couldn't be any more different.
    Rondo is an example of someone who isn't tall but plays outstanding defense. I've said it many times. To paraphrase "Kemba is going to be a bad defender just because of the number 73? Well what about Rajon Rondo? His number is 73 as well". Never did I say that Kemba Walker = Rajon Rondo because both players are 73 inches tall. Never have I broken down their games comparing them side by side. Same goes for Paul. If you can find where I come out and say Kemba Walker and Rajon Rondo are the same player then I have a crisp $20 bill waiting for you.


    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    And I don't know how Calderon's defense is relevant at all.
    He's relevant because he's the current Raptors' starting PG and he's a bad defender.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Everyone on this board needs to take a step back from this draft. Somehow we went from this being a weak draft to it being chock full of all-star talent.
    Don't speak for me. I've never gone there.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    would we be sitting here making Kemba sound like he has unlimited ceiling and absolutely no flaws?
    Who's saying he has unlimited potential with no flaw? Are we reading the same posts?

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    I've never said Walker would be a flop; I think he's certainly capable of putting up very good Damon-like numbers on a bad team. Yet it seems the mere idea that he might not be an All-Star starter on a contending team is highly offensive.
    No, the idea that the number 73 and nothing more would mean he's destined to be a bench PG is extremely ignorant.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Already we have (by different people) Walker compared to Zeke/Iverson/Paul/Rondo,
    I haven't compared him to any of those players. I've always contested he has similar talent to that of some failed NYC point guards, like Steph Marbury, only with a good head on his shoulders to make good with it if he can develop a strong shot.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Apollo, your last two posts must not be addressed to me, because:

    1) I've never wanted us to draft Knight either; and

    2) Well, just take a look at what I posted earlier (and it's not the first time either!).



    So again, why are we talking about his height?
    I addressed what you said and moved on. It was directed toward the whole thread. I've been fighting the crazy notion that "73" means bad defense but "75" means good defense.

    To further explain, I'm throwing my opinion out here for all. I just happened to hit quote and comment on something you said before moving along with my thought path.

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