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Thread: Does Jose Barea's display open more RR faithful to Kemba?

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    ...Guys, Barea isn't the first guy with average height to perform in the league. He's not opening the door for anybody. Come on now, let's not get carried away.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    ...Guys, Barea isn't the first guy with average height to perform in the league. He's not opening the door for anybody. Come on now, let's not get carried away.
    Although I could go back further or in different directions...check out this guy from the 80's/'90's, he does not get much hype, but he had some solid years. http://www.nba.com/historical/player...=michael_adams

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    How does a good backup point guard performing well in a few playoff games increase Walker's stock? If anything, I'd imagine this (i.e. good backup point guard on a contending team) is a comparison you'd want to avoid.

    As always, how does any player's performance or success affect another's future career? Does Nowitzki being Finals MVP improve Bargnani's perception?
    well I think it goes a long way to dispelling the notion that there is a ceiling for the role of smaller players.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    well I think it goes a long way to dispelling the notion that there is a ceiling for the role of smaller players.
    Barea's ceiling seems to be a 20 mpg player, or at least that what he played during the regular season and in the playoffs. How does that dispel the notion?
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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Barea's ceiling seems to be a 20 mpg player, or at least that what he played during the regular season and in the playoffs. How does that dispel the notion?
    he was an integral spoke and a starter for a championship team.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  6. #26
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Although I could go back further or in different directions...check out this guy from the 80's/'90's, he does not get much hype, but he had some solid years. http://www.nba.com/historical/player...=michael_adams
    How about former Raptors ROY Damon Stoudamire? Former league scoring champion and MVP Allen Iverson?

  7. #27
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    he was an integral spoke and a starter for a championship team.
    He was a starter for 5 games. For the ENTIRE season, including the playoffs. And it just so happens that he matched up well against Miami, because they didn't have a PG who would punish his lack of defense. I'm guessing he wouldn't have been so integral against Chicago or Boston. Of the 21 playoff games Dallas played, Barea played at least 20 minutes only 6 times, and only 3 times did he play more than 25 minutes.

    Now I'm not bashing the guy, because I think he's a decent player, but I think you vastly over estimate his impact, not only on the rest of the league, but on Dallas. For the playoffs, he averaged 8.9 ppg, on .419 shooting, and 3.4 apg. Hardly numbers that makes one stand up and take notice.

    If Kemba's ceiling is the same as Barea's (which I'm not saying is true), then there's no way in hell I'd want to take him with the 5th pick in the draft. And as others have noted, Barea's not even a trailblazer for the height impaired. Mugsy Bogues, Spud Webb, Michael Adams, Tim Hardaway, Dana Barros, Kenny Anderson, Mark Price, Damon Stoudamire, Terrell Brandon and Calvin Murphy all are guys who were most likely under 6 feet and had better careers than Barea. And I didn't even mention guys like Iverson and Chris Paul.

    I probably wouldn't take Kemba at 5, but his lack of height is barely on the radar for why.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    He was a starter for 5 games. For the ENTIRE season, including the playoffs. And it just so happens that he matched up well against Miami, because they didn't have a PG who would punish his lack of defense. I'm guessing he wouldn't have been so integral against Chicago or Boston. Of the 21 playoff games Dallas played, Barea played at least 20 minutes only 6 times, and only 3 times did he play more than 25 minutes.

    Now I'm not bashing the guy, because I think he's a decent player, but I think you vastly over estimate his impact, not only on the rest of the league, but on Dallas. For the playoffs, he averaged 8.9 ppg, on .419 shooting, and 3.4 apg. Hardly numbers that makes one stand up and take notice.

    If Kemba's ceiling is the same as Barea's (which I'm not saying is true), then there's no way in hell I'd want to take him with the 5th pick in the draft. And as others have noted, Barea's not even a trailblazer for the height impaired. Mugsy Bogues, Spud Webb, Michael Adams, Tim Hardaway, Dana Barros, Kenny Anderson, Mark Price, Damon Stoudamire, Terrell Brandon and Calvin Murphy all are guys who were most likely under 6 feet and had better careers than Barea. And I didn't even mention guys like Iverson and Chris Paul.

    I probably wouldn't take Kemba at 5, but his lack of height is barely on the radar for why.
    1) kemba and Berea are apples and oranges outside of size and speed.
    2) I think JJ has grown up through out the course of the year - I think he will improve on those numbers even further next year.
    3) Kemba brings a lot more championship pedigree/promise into the league and has more upside that JJB.
    4) Kemba has an outside chance to be something special more than a contributing rotation player. His upside is hard to gauge but I would not be shocked if he had better Rookie years than Knight and Irving.

    lastly BC has a 2 year window to make something happen - Kemba is the guy / the swagger / the resume / the leadership
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  9. #29
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    1) kemba and Berea are apples and oranges outside of size and speed.
    2) I think JJ has grown up through out the course of the year - I think he will improve on those numbers even further next year.
    3) Kemba brings a lot more championship pedigree/promise into the league and has more upside that JJB.
    4) Kemba has an outside chance to be something special more than a contributing rotation player. His upside is hard to gauge but I would not be shocked if he had better Rookie years than Knight and Irving.

    lastly BC has a 2 year window to make something happen - Kemba is the guy / the swagger / the resume / the leadership
    Then I really have no idea what your point is. You seem to have started the thread because you felt that Barea playing the way he did may have changed them minds of Raptor fans about Kemba. My argument was that Barea was not nearly as good or important as you're giving him credit for, and that he's not the first (or even close to best) sub-6 foot player to make an impact in the league. I also said that I didn't think that Barea and Kemba were really comparable.

    If you don't think that Kemba and Barea are comparable, then why bring Barea up?

    As for Kemba, I've seen loads of players just like Kemba come into the league and fail (or at least not flourish). Rumeal Robinson, Greg Anthony, Lee Mayberry, Bobby Hurley, Mateen Cleeves and DJ Augustin all were similar players with similar resume, swagger and leadership abilities. Now, I'm not saying Kemba is going to have a similar career, but what you've done in the NCAA only takes you so far. And in the end it means very little in the NBA. Those intangibles that Kemba has are great, but I question whether he's a) a true PG b) whether he can be effective when he's not dominating the ball and shooting and c) whether he has the ability to make his teammates better. None of what he has done in college answers.
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  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    haven't really read the thread, but while barea is my dude, his production was more due to the matchup. carlisle is a master at substitutions and always seems to win the majority of matchups. there was no one on the team that could stay in front of barea and he did his thing.

    if they played a team with better defensive guards, i doubt he plays more than 7-9 minutes a game.

    if we're drafting a pg at #5, weak draft or not, he better be more than a change-of-pace depth dude.
    @jerboat

  11. #31
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    Running the point is perhaps (IMO) the most difficult position to play. The fact that everyone seems 50/50 on Kemba should illustrate that he's no sure lock to become a top tier PG. If he was destined for greatness, he'd be a lot higher on the draft boards. However, that doesn't mean he can't be great. I just think it's a crap shoot with him.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Then I really have no idea what your point is.
    not limited role because of size is how it started -other points rounded out the topic. If u dont get my point by now I think you arw just being argumentative because you want to draft someone else partifcularily a eurobig
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    If you look at Paul's pre-draft measurements and Walker's pre-draft measurements in addition to their combine results, they're awfully similar.
    Isn't Kemba 22 and how old was Paul when he was measured? I doubt Kemba will grow more physically than what his is now.

  14. #34
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    There is a possibility that Barea's performance could increase Kemba's draft stock, but imo it shouldn't for the Raptors. If you are a playoff team in need of a good 6th man to come off the bench and provide scoring punch then Kemba shows the potential to do so a la Ben Gordon. But a team like the Raptors that are in need of starters have got to go for the sure thing or as close to the a sure thing as possible. If they can't move the pick to acquire the sure thing then Kemba is certainly a better option than anyone else projected to be available at the 5 spot.

  15. #35
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    not limited role because of size is how it started -other points rounded out the topic. If u dont get my point by now I think you arw just being argumentative because you want to draft someone else partifcularily a eurobig
    I'm not purposely being argumentative. When I showed that Barea was a player with limited minutes, you seemed to changed the point of your argument. Was Barea limited due to his height? Who knows, but MY point is that Barea is not a good reason to change your mind about Kemba because a) he's a lmited role player and b) he's nothing like Kemba.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Paul entered at age 20. So too did Rondo. Walker is entering at age 21. Most guys aren't growing at age 20 anyway. This doesn't matter at all though because Walker is around their height right now so whenever they measure, who cares? I've said it many times, if the only thing you have against a player is his height, which in this case isn't an issue to begin with, then maybe you should go back to the lab and reassess why you're on the offense?

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Paul entered at age 20. So too did Rondo. Walker is entering at age 21. Most guys aren't growing at age 20 anyway. This doesn't matter at all though because Walker is around their height right now so whenever they measure, who cares? I've said it many times, if the only thing you have against a player is his height, which in this case isn't an issue to begin with, then maybe you should go back to the lab and reassess why you're on the offense?
    tell that to Tim

  18. #38
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Paul entered at age 20. So too did Rondo. Walker is entering at age 21. Most guys aren't growing at age 20 anyway. This doesn't matter at all though because Walker is around their height right now so whenever they measure, who cares? I've said it many times, if the only thing you have against a player is his height, which in this case isn't an issue to begin with, then maybe you should go back to the lab and reassess why you're on the offense?
    I wasn't on the offense, and think he will be a fine player, but I also feel that size plays a role in the type of career he'll have. For every Isah Thomas and Allen Iverson that comes along there are many more Aron Brooks' and Earl Boykins. Because how he'll pan out in the NBA is the great unknown factor I prefer to play the odds that a promising player like Knight who has the size to succeed be our pick as opposed a promising player like Walker who will have to overcome the size factor be our pick. I really don't know what Walkers measuements are, but my understanding is that he is under 6 feet without shoes. Hey, if he comes to Toronto and plays well I'll be happy to be proved wrong, but I prefer to play the odds and the odds are against him being a legit starting pg.

  19. #39
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    I'm not sure how Earl Boykins enters into the conversation. Anyway, Aaron Brooks, is who he is because of his game, not because of his size. Would he be better if he were bigger? Probably but that's because his abilities are lacking to some degree. If you have great abilities and your style suits your size then you'll be an effective player. There is such a thing as "too small for your game", no doubt about it. There is also such a thing as "too big for your game" as well. Examples of players in this category would be Bargnani and Frye. They struggle with aspects of their position because their game doesn't suit their size. Kemba Walker's game does suit his size. There are lots of guys in the league today around his size who are successful. Two of them are arguably the top two PGs in the league, Chris Paul and Rajon Rondo.

    What do we know about Kemba Walker?

    • He's a good kid, never been in trouble.
    • He's a proven leader.
    • He always listens to his coach's directions.
    • He values defense, works hard at it and it's a personal barometer for himself.
    • He's fast and athletic.
    • He's aggressive and not afraid of contact.
    • He isn't scared of pressure situations.
    • He has a positive uplifting presence on the court.
    • He's a proven winner.
    • He's not a big PG but his size won't limit his ability to stay on the court as his size is not uncommon.
    • He needs to work on his jumper.


    Do you feel when you watch Chris Paul play or Rajon Rondo play that they are "overcoming" their size? I'm willing to bet you don't even think about their size when you watch them play. Why? Because they're really good players. They're not overcoming their size because it's not an issue for them to begin with. A lot of people around here are overrating the size topic. If the guy is 5'8" then it's an issue because there aren't a lot of players who have proven they can compete at that height but when you're talking 6'0'-6'1" there is huge group of good examples. Three inches isn't going to mean much in three years time if Knight isn't able to grow an NBA game. Kemba Walker already has an NBA game.

  20. #40
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    All of your points are valid. My point is that how a player translates to the NBA is an unknown factor or otherwise Kemba would be a sure first or second pick in this years draft as "it's a point guards league" is the common phrase coming out of everyones mouth these days. And just as you've listed all those intangibles which he posesses are an advantage you don't know that it will carry over at the NBA level. They can only be used to make an educated guess. I look at his size and see a distinct disadvantage. Yes, a player like Paul or Rondo succeed despite being smaller pg's coming out of college but they are the rare case.

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