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Thread: #5 for #12 and Al Jefferson/Paul Milsap. Potential Utah-Toronto Draft Day trade.

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I said size, not height. Big difference.
    Not to nitpick, but height is inextricably linked to size. It's a law of the mathematical universe.

    You mean weight. If Davis puts on 20lbs he will about the same weight as Chandler.

  2. #42
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    No, that's to nitpick. Whatever you want to call it. They'd be the same mass.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Ed Davis versus starting C's around the league and their pre-draft measurements:


    name/height wo shoes/height w shoes/weight/wingspan/standing reach/body fat/no step vertical/max vertical

    Ed Davis/ 6' 9"/ 6' 9.75"/ 227/ 7' 0"/ 9' 0"/ 10.0/ 31.0/ 36.0

    Al Horford/ 6' 8.75"/ 6' 9.75"/ 246/ 7' 0.75"/ 8' 11"/ 9.1/ 31.0/ 35.5

    Emeka Okafor/ 6' 8.75"/ 6' 10"/ 257/ 7' 4"/ 9' 2.5"/ NA/ 31.5/ 34.0

    DeAndre Jordan/ 6' 9.75"/ 6' 11"/ 250/ 7' 6"/ 9' 5.5"/ 7.5/ 26.0/ 30.5

    Joakim Noah/ 6' 10.5"/ 7' 0"/ 223/ 7' 1.25"/ 8' 10.5"/ 4.8/ 32.5/ 37.5

    Dwight Howard/ 6' 9"/ 6' 10.25"/ 240/ 7' 4.5"/ 9' 3.5"/ NA/ 30.5/ 35.5

    Nene/ 6' 9.25"/ 6' 10.25"/ 253/ 7' 4.5"/ 9' 1"/ NA/ 30.0/ 34.0

    Elton Brand/ 6' 8.25"/ 6' 9.5"/ 260/ 7' 5.5"/ 9' 2"/ NA/ NA/ NA

    Al Jefferson/ 6' 8.5"/ 6' 9.75"/ 263/ 7' 2.5"/ 9' 2"/ NA/ 28.5/ 30.0

    Chuck Hayes/ 6' 5.5"/ 6' 6.75"/ 232/ 6' 10"/ 8' 8.5"/ NA/ 30.0/ 33.0

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, that's to nitpick. Whatever you want to call it. They'd be the same mass.
    It's an important distinction to make. One could otherwise make the just - albeit deliberately obfuscating - statement that someone standing 5 foot tall but weighing 300lb is about the same size as Shaq. Or, to nitpick, that Ed Davis weighing in at 235 would be about the same size as Tyson Chandler. Perhaps in a non b-ball conversation that would be true. But 3 inches worth of height is a significant advantage when fighting for boards and playing good D in the post and is definitely worth pointing out.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    From a pure value perspective, it's hard not to like the deal. Jefferson is a very good player, is in his prime, and his contract only has 2 years left. Then you get the #12 pick. That's a good haul from the #5 pick in a crappy draft. Not sure any guy you pick at #5 gives you anything close to what AlJeff can give you.

    From a basketball perspective, having Jefferson, Bargs, Amir and ED as your 4 bigs is far better than the current scenario. If Bargs is traded, then you still have 3 decent bigs. Jefferson may not be the ultimate defensive anchor inside but I'm not sure that mythical creature is available to the Raps right now.

    The downside is the ~$15mm salary. Not sure he's worth that much and he certainly ties up a large percentage of your cap. I'm not sure he's enough of a difference-maker to justify that salary.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Most of the above list (minus Howard and Noah) are always referred to as undersized C or "I'm a PF forced to play C." Here are pre draft measurements for 'true' C's:


    name/height wo shoes/height w shoes/weight/wingspan/standing reach/body fat/no step vertical/max vertical

    Tyson Chandler/ 6' 11.5"/ 7' 0.5"/ 224/ 7' 3"/ 9' 2"/ NA/ 31.0/ 33.5

    Chris Kaman/ 6' 11.5"/ 7' 0.5"/ 252/ 6' 11.75"/ 9' 2.5"/ 16.3/ 23.5/ 30.5

    Andrew Bogut/ 6' 11"/ 7' 0.25"/ 251/ 7' 3"/ 9' 2.5"/ NA/ 27.5/ 33.5

    Andrew Bynum/ no measurements

    Greg Oden/ 6' 11"/ 7' 0"/ 257/ 7' 4.25"/ 9' 4"/ 7.8/ 32.0/ 34.0

    Brook Lopez/ 6' 11.25"/ 7' 0.5"/ 256/ 7' 5.5"/ 9' 5"/ 6.3/ 27.5/ 30.5

    Tim Duncan/ 6' 11"/ NA/ 249/ NA/ NA/ NA/ NA

    JaVale McGee/ 6' 11"/ 7' 0"/ 241/ 7' 6"/ 9' 6.5"/ 5.3/ 27.0/ 32.5

    Marc Gasol/ no measurements

  7. #47
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I said size, not height. Big difference.
    Yes, you did say size, not height.

    So, Gabourey Sidibe is the same "size" then as Chandler - do you think she would make a good C?

  8. #48
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    No, but if she had more talent than Chandler and was only two inches shorter I wouldn't writer her off.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Most of the above list (minus Howard and Noah) are always referred to as undersized C or "I'm a PF forced to play C." Here are pre draft measurements for 'true' C's:


    name/height wo shoes/height w shoes/weight/wingspan/standing reach/body fat/no step vertical/max vertical

    Tyson Chandler/ 6' 11.5"/ 7' 0.5"/ 224/ 7' 3"/ 9' 2"/ NA/ 31.0/ 33.5

    Chris Kaman/ 6' 11.5"/ 7' 0.5"/ 252/ 6' 11.75"/ 9' 2.5"/ 16.3/ 23.5/ 30.5

    Andrew Bogut/ 6' 11"/ 7' 0.25"/ 251/ 7' 3"/ 9' 2.5"/ NA/ 27.5/ 33.5

    Andrew Bynum/ no measurements

    Greg Oden/ 6' 11"/ 7' 0"/ 257/ 7' 4.25"/ 9' 4"/ 7.8/ 32.0/ 34.0

    Brook Lopez/ 6' 11.25"/ 7' 0.5"/ 256/ 7' 5.5"/ 9' 5"/ 6.3/ 27.5/ 30.5

    Tim Duncan/ 6' 11"/ NA/ 249/ NA/ NA/ NA/ NA

    JaVale McGee/ 6' 11"/ 7' 0"/ 241/ 7' 6"/ 9' 6.5"/ 5.3/ 27.0/ 32.5

    Marc Gasol/ no measurements
    thats not necessarily true. Deandre jordan, emeka okafor, or Al horford are not really PF's they are still considered true C. Ed still has a little room to grow, i could see him growing an extra inch or so and putting on weight. He would be a pretty good center, but i'd keep him at PF and let him play some extra minutes as a backup C.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    I'm sure i'm missing something, because we have Ed Davis, Amir Johnson and Andrea Bargnani at the PF position - the strongest talent on our roster for one position ... so why do we want Millsap or Jefferson? And will that #12 pick be a potential starter for our team, like the big piece we're about to add with the #5 pick in Kemba, Kanter or Kawhi who play positions of more need?

    Pass. Although if they want to deal Devin Harris, you have my attention.
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  11. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I don't see how anyone can dislike this deal. We trade the #5 for the #12, two picks that aren't likely to have that big of a talent gap between them (guys like Kawhi Leonard, Bismack, and Jimmer have been all over the map) and get a guy who can easily average 20 and 10 and is 26 years old. Unless BC decides to throw DD or Ed Davis in I don't see how this can possibly seem bad for the Raptors. I question who would be included to make this deal work but there is no one on this team better than Al Jeff right now (even if he can't play D) and only 2 guys I would not trade to make this deal work. Worst case is we have to trade one of our Power Forwards after and I really don't see how that is a bad thing.
    Last edited by hateslosing; Mon Jun 20th, 2011 at 12:27 PM.
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  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    thats not necessarily true. Deandre jordan, emeka okafor, or Al horford are not really PF's they are still considered true C. Ed still has a little room to grow, i could see him growing an extra inch or so and putting on weight. He would be a pretty good center, but i'd keep him at PF and let him play some extra minutes as a backup C.
    Jordan is considered a true C.

    Okafor and Horford have been referred to numerous times as PF's who play C. They are most definitely not true C's in terms of size from a traditional perspective. Okafor's game is more C oriented because he basically lacked any game outside 12 feet. Horford is a PF:

    It's the biggest go-to salve the NBA has. The team needs a big man, a legitimate center who can defend, rebound and hold his own offensively. With center-size, preferably.

    Forgetting, of course, that there aren't many of those guys in the NBA. Yao Ming(notes) and Greg Oden(notes) are hurt. Pau Gasol(notes) gets killed for his center-sized defense all the time. Dwight Howard(notes), though this isn't correct, is consistently criticized for his offense. Andrew Bogut(notes) may be this league's best defender at his position -- I mean that -- but he's been terrible offensively this season. Andrew Bynum(notes) can't even stay on the court. Joakim Noah(notes) couldn't post up Joaquin Andujar. Nobody counts Amar'e Stoudmire as a center. And those are the guys we're actually counting here.

    But that doesn't stop fans, media and, in this case, family members alike for begging their favorite team to go out and grab that mythical 7-footer who can defend and score.

    What sets this case apart is that the fan in question here is actually the father of the starting center of the Atlanta Hawks. And he, as a former NBA center, would love to see the Hawks grab a starting-quality center in order to move his son down to the power forward slot.

    Tito Horford, on Tuesday, talked to the Atlanta Journal-Consitution's Jeff Schwartz:

    "I've been begging [general manager] Rick Sund and the Hawks for the last three years -- please get a center so my son can play his normal position," the elder Horford said Tuesday from his home in the Dominican Republic. "He can't push guys out of the box like I could. If he moved to forward, he would have a longer career."

    Tito's frustrations have been long echoed by Hawks fans and observers of the team. His son Al has put together perhaps the most underrated season of any player in the NBA this season, but as a 6-10 center, you can't help but get the feeling he'd do much, much better with a bigger center looking over his shoulder, matching giants like Dwight Howard and Andrew Bogut and ... well, that's about it out East.

    The issue here is availability. There aren't any centers that can be had in a trade that wouldn't cripple the Hawks. It's not even worth discussing because those guys just aren't out there to trade for. And though a move to power forward would no doubt extend Horford's career, it should be pointed out that he's sort of kicking a little butt at the center position this year.

    Al is averaging a 24 Player Efficiency Rating in the pivot while playing nearly half of Atlanta's minutes at center, and that's just a step below MVP numbers when it comes to PER. He's not far off at a 22 PER as a big forward, though we should point out that he gives up just a 12 PER (a sterling mark, because typical power forward stats tend to translate better to PER than any other position) while guarding fours. He gives up a 17 PER at center, so it is clear that -- though he plays better offensively at the five -- his worth to the Hawks overall is more pronounced at big forward.

    Even without the help of 82games.com, Atlanta knows this. But what can the Hawks do about it? Chase down Nene? Hope that Jim Buss finally tires of Andrew Bynum, while gutting their roster to grab him? Catch Avery Johnson on a bad day -- regarding Brook Lopez(notes) -- when Billy King's cell-phone battery has run out? There's just not a lot out there. There's also a reason the "try-to-package-a-deal-for-a-serviceable-center" suggestion has been floating around since this league started up.

    It's understandable, Tito, as you watch your son bang with the best of them. But understand that Al Horford(notes) is amongst the best of them. This guy doles out more punishment than he takes in, and while that's cold comfort as you watch him take the slings and arrows at a position he's not best suited for, the warming element has to be Al Horford's fantastic 2010-11 run as all-world center.

    Schwartz got to the point of it later in his column:

    How good would he be as a power forward?

    "He'd be a beast," [Atlanta] coach Larry Drew said.

    He would be. But he also is a beast now. Recognize and appreciate it, and then do what you can should something pop up.

    http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/...urn=nba-318981
    Davis turned 22 two weeks ago - he is most likely done growing vertically.

  13. #53
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I don't see how anyone can dislike this deal. We trade the #5 for the #12, two picks that aren't likely to have that big of a talent gap between them (guys like Kawhi Leonard, Bismack, and Jimmer have been all over the map) and get a guy who can easily average 20 and 10 and is 26 years old. Unless BC decides to throw DD or Ed Davis in I don't see how this can possibly seem bad for the Raptors. I question who would be included to make this deal work but there is no one on this team better than Al Jeff right now (even if he can't play D) and only 2 guys I would not trade to make this deal work. Worst case is we have to trade one of our Power Forwards after and I really don't see how that is a bad thing.
    Another player would have to be included for this deal to work. If it's Bargnani, then it's obviously an upgrade, but my problem with Jefferson is that I don't believe he should be a long term solution and I fear he would be. And I'd rather have Davis and Amir than Jefferson, believe it or not. Not because they are more "talented" but because I believe they are more conducive to winning than Jefferson.

    Millsap is undersized and always at a disadvantage on defense, even if he tries harder at it than Jefferson. Again, I'd rather have Davis and Amir.

    As for Apollo's assertion that Davis can play center, I don't know. Maybe he can, but he'll always be undersized.

    Lastly, I don't like the idea of trading down in a draft, especially one as weak as this. There are only a handful of players I think will make an impact and I don't see any of them still available at 12.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Another player would have to be included for this deal to work. If it's Bargnani, then it's obviously an upgrade, but my problem with Jefferson is that I don't believe he should be a long term solution and I fear he would be. And I'd rather have Davis and Amir than Jefferson, believe it or not. Not because they are more "talented" but because I believe they are more conducive to winning than Jefferson.

    Millsap is undersized and always at a disadvantage on defense, even if he tries harder at it than Jefferson. Again, I'd rather have Davis and Amir.

    As for Apollo's assertion that Davis can play center, I don't know. Maybe he can, but he'll always be undersized.

    Lastly, I don't like the idea of trading down in a draft, especially one as weak as this. There are only a handful of players I think will make an impact and I don't see any of them still available at 12.
    I don't think Amir is more conductive to winning but we each have our priorities in what we look for in a player. I look at the value a guy can bring to a team and there is no doubt that Jefferson, and to a lesser extent Millsap, is a baller. He is like a taller Carlos Boozer and is very capable of being the second best scorer on a contender. When you add the fact that he rebounds well and isn't a terrible defender I think you have a very nice player.
    To be honest I sort of assume that we move out Bargs if Jefferson or Millsap is brought in. Maybe I'm mistaken in that assumption, but while a front court of Jeff and Bargs would be a juggernaut offensively they would be among the worst ever defensively. If Bargs is kept and we somehow run a rotation of Jeff, Bargs, Amir, and Davis I still like the deal. I just like it a lot less.

    I don't know that there is anyone in this draft who makes an impact from day one except maybe Kanter or Irving. It's all projects and people with question marks.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    I think ed will be great but I don't want he at center. he has the prototypical power forwards game I don't want to change that I just want him to dominate that position which I think he can in time.

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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I don't think Amir is more conductive to winning but we each have our priorities in what we look for in a player. I look at the value a guy can bring to a team and there is no doubt that Jefferson, and to a lesser extent Millsap, is a baller. He is like a taller Carlos Boozer and is very capable of being the second best scorer on a contender. When you add the fact that he rebounds well and isn't a terrible defender I think you have a very nice player.
    To be honest I sort of assume that we move out Bargs if Jefferson or Millsap is brought in. Maybe I'm mistaken in that assumption, but while a front court of Jeff and Bargs would be a juggernaut offensively they would be among the worst ever defensively. If Bargs is kept and we somehow run a rotation of Jeff, Bargs, Amir, and Davis I still like the deal. I just like it a lot less.

    I don't know that there is anyone in this draft who makes an impact from day one except maybe Kanter or Irving. It's all projects and people with question marks.
    I like Millsap, but I'm not a fan of Jefferson. I think that's what it boils down to. I think he's a below average defender and a bit of a black hole. Not coincidentally, I'm also not a big fan of Boozer, for those very reasons.

    As for Millsap, I just think the last thing the Raptors need is another PF. I don't think Amir, Davis or Millsap are centers.
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    ive heard from a few sources jefferson's work ethic is abysmal. i dunno about you guys but thats not the type of attitude i want on my young team.

    not really a big fan of millsap. like tim said, we don't need another pf. he's undersized at that.
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  18. #58
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I like Millsap, but I'm not a fan of Jefferson. I think that's what it boils down to. I think he's a below average defender and a bit of a black hole. Not coincidentally, I'm also not a big fan of Boozer, for those very reasons.

    As for Millsap, I just think the last thing the Raptors need is another PF. I don't think Amir, Davis or Millsap are centers.
    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    ive heard from a few sources jefferson's work ethic is abysmal. i dunno about you guys but thats not the type of attitude i want on my young team.

    not really a big fan of millsap. like tim said, we don't need another pf. he's undersized at that.
    I don't really want Millsap either. I don't see him as an upgrade over any of our rotation bigs. I do like Jefferson's game, he scores in the low post and rebounds which are two invaluable skills for a big. His D is not good, but like Apollo pointed out earlier, he does seem to do a good job on his man.
    The work ethic thing is worrisome. I do find it hard to believe a person can become a professional athlete without haveing some work ethic but you could be correct. Maybe a change of scenery is just what he needs.
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    Whether one feels value is warranted for the #5 for the #12 and Jefferson it is moot. At the end of the day there is a big gap in this trade, since the Raptors cannot absorb Jefferson's contract so a lot of bodies need to go out the door to make the $$s work, and Bargnani wouldn't be the only one since his contract for trading is BYC. Mentioned earlier that Kleiza may be included still is not enough, so something like Bargnani, Bayless and Kleiza plus the #5 for Jefferson and the #12 is ridiculously one-sided to Utah. In fact I would argue something like that would be getting us the #3 and #12 for the #5 and package.

    I see no angles where it makes any semblance of sense that Jefferson comes with the #12 for the #5 and acceptable pieces. Even if one thinks Calderon and Kleiza for salaries to work along with these picks, then we are screwed since we would not be getting a decent PG out of the 12th pick (unless seeking Darius Morris and that is probably too high to pick DM).

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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I see no angles where it makes any semblance of sense that Jefferson comes with the #12 for the #5 and acceptable pieces. Even if one thinks Calderon and Kleiza for salaries to work along with these picks, then we are screwed since we would not be getting a decent PG out of the 12th pick (unless seeking Darius Morris and that is probably too high to pick DM).
    Not to mention that we would have only 1 SF to go with our 1 SG on the team. Yikes.

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