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Thread: Spurs Offering Tony Parker? Looking to draft Valanciunas? (See post #74)

  1. #41
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I started to write a long reply, but decided to post most of it on my blog, here:
    http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...r-be-a-raptor/

    Basically, though, my problem with the trade is that is would probably give the Raptors 5-10 more wins. Great, so now they become a 27-32 win team? Maybe the rest of the team improves, too, giving them, maybe 5-10 more wins. That's a 42 win team, at best. Maybe they make the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed. Maybe. But unlike a much more talented team like Memphis, Toronto is going to be a first round casualty. So with a much lower pick, they aren't likely to find an impact player in the draft, and with Parker's contract, they won't have money to spend on a free agent. So the team has little chance to bring in any other players to improve the team, which leaves their best option to improve to be within the team.

    I don't think there's many people that see either DeRozan or Davis as future elite players. Good ones, yes, but not elite players. And those two are probably going to be the two best players on the team 5 years from now. Unfortunately, because Parker has played so many games in his NBA career, he's likely going to start declining pretty soon. So by the time DeRozan and Davis are hitting their peak, Parker's probably just about done.

    And since a team lead by DeRozan and Davis aren't going to be good enough to be a contender, the Raptors will probably continue to be a 7th or 8th seed for the foreseeable future.

    So I don't think saying that a trade for Parker will doom the Raptors to mediocrity is a little dramatic. I'd say it's pretty damn accurate.
    Wait a minute. Who's to say the Raps keep Porker for the full length of his contract? He becomes a very tradeable asset for years to come. Porker may add too many wins to expect lottery success next year, but the Raps can also trade many of their other ball players to compensate. What if the Raps could flip Derozan, Bargnani and Calderon in the same deal and get an all-star out of it? Now they've got 2 all-stars, and they still have Ed Davis. And they can still fake injuries and sit their arses down for 20 games next year to get into the lottery. Porker is a lot better than anyone they can get out of this year's crummy draft.

  2. #42
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote 10 000 Hours wrote: View Post
    Kidd used to be all about speed too.
    No, he didn't. Jason Kidd and Tony Parker are two entirely different players. Kidd wasn't a good shooter but was excellent at defense, rebounding and play making. Jason Kidd could make passes that Parker can only dream of. Jason Kidd's defense was better on a horrendous night than Tony Parker's on a outstanding night. There there's the rebounding, not even close.... Both have had clutch performances. Jason Kidd is a very large PG who's game has been excellent in the half court. He has never needed to be the fastest guy on the floor to control a game. At 38 he's a shadow of his former self but still effective because he's never depended on speed or athleticism to perform.

  3. #43
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    I think Calderon is just as talented as Parker, or even more as a PG who improves team-mates. And if we have to take on another 29 year old PG with a large contract, I'd rather keep Calderon as he loves the city and plays hard. He's also a professional which is something I'll always respect.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    If the Spurs are going to take Calderon and the #5 and give up Parker and Splitter, I'd be on board. Parker still has good years left and if it means an upgrade from Calderon, I'm all for it. The last year of his contract is non-guaranteed, so really, he's got 3 seasons remaining. When he signed the contract in October, Spurs fans were quite elated at the deal. I mean, does Parker make this team better than Calderon would? I mean, over the next 2 seasons that Calderon is scheduled to be here, would you rather have Calderon at 20 million or Parker at 25 million?

    However, if it's straight Parker for the #5, I'd pass and would rather take Valancuinas (the player whom the Spurs are in all liklihood coveting with that high lotto pick)
    Last edited by MangoKid; Wed Jun 22nd, 2011 at 10:35 AM.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    You know it's funny...for all the talk of this being a weak draft, there are an awful lot of championship calibre teams looking to trade cornerstones of their franchise to get into the lottery.
    Jeff, I was thinking the same thing. I think it has more to do with this being a weak draft and thus more of the lottery teams being willing to trade out that usual. For example I'm sure in 2003 there were some championship caliber teams wanting to trade up, but there was just no chance any of those teams would even entertain the idea of trading down. But because it's such a weak draft for the first time those teams might consider a quick-fix option over a young prospect, even if it costs them a little extra coin.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    What exactly is Parkers contract? does anyone know the year/amount break down and options/guarantees?

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    What exactly is Parkers contract? does anyone know the year/amount break down and options/guarantees?
    He's got 12.5 each season for the next 4 seasons, but the 4th season isn't guaranteed. I think it's partially guaranteed - to the tune of 3.5-4 million (although that part I'm not 100% sure of.. I'll do some digging around)

    EDIT: Found the deets.

    Details of the four-year contract extension Tony Parker signed last week have trickled out and a couple of the particulars are interesting.

    For one thing, the deal calls for a non-escalating salary. Parker is to get $12.5 million for the 2011-12 season, and in each of the three succeeding seasons. This would seem an obvious nod to the uncertainty of the increases that may, or may not, be allowed under a new collective bargaining agreement.

    Even more interesting: Only $3.5 million is fully guaranteed in the final season, 2014-15, when the erstwhile All-NBA point guard will be 32 years old.

    Finally, the deal includes no trade kicker, that would have increased Parker’s salary in the event of a trade. Manu Ginobili’s three-year, $38.9 million deal, signed last spring, does include a trade kicker, according to a league source.
    LINK
    Last edited by MangoKid; Wed Jun 22nd, 2011 at 10:38 AM.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    If splitter was involved I'd listen, but he's not.

    Anyways, it's looking like he's going to the kings who are in full "win now" mode. Would be a good move, I think. There goes our chance at another lotto pick, tho. Sigh.
    @jerboat

  9. #49
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    You know it's funny...for all the talk of this being a weak draft, there are an awful lot of championship calibre teams looking to trade cornerstones of their franchise to get into the lottery.
    My opinion it is weak on superstar talent but strong on solid long-term players up to the 20th or 23rd picks.

  10. #50
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    If you try to compare Parker to kid also compare Dallas to TO. Toronto isn't full of vet talent and a hall of famer in Dirk!
    The only way Toronto are going to be able to attract free agents here is by building a solid team with a ton of talent. Raps dont have that talent yet, so lets keep building untill we do. Our best chance is to pull a franchise player in next years draft, so lets not add ageing stars this year and throw a proper rebuild out the window.

  11. #51
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    If splitter was involved I'd listen, but he's not.

    Anyways, it's looking like he's going to the kings who are in full "win now" mode. Would be a good move, I think. There goes our chance at another lotto pick, tho. Sigh.
    What if the trade allowed us to get SAC's pick such as:
    SAC: Bargnani, Bayless
    SAS: #5, Calderon
    TOR: #7, #29, Parker, OCasspi, JThompson
    Draft: Biyombo at 7, and a PG at 29 like Darius Morris (if he falls), Iman Shumpert (if he doesn't rise too far), Reggie Jackson or Julyan Stone.

    PG: TParker, Shumpert/Jackson/Stone
    SG: DDerozan, LBarbosa
    SF: JJ, OCasspi, LKleiza
    PF: ED, Amir
    C: Biyombo, JThompson, SAlabi
    Salary: ~46.5M with LB coming off next year (if he opts in or isn't extended at less $), Parker is around 3yrs (4th if not bought out) to develop/mentor the PG drafted, Casspi and Parker provide 3pt shooting, the big rotation is very solid D with average O, scoring from the backcourt.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Jeff, I was thinking the same thing. I think it has more to do with this being a weak draft and thus more of the lottery teams being willing to trade out that usual. For example I'm sure in 2003 there were some championship caliber teams wanting to trade up, but there was just no chance any of those teams would even entertain the idea of trading down. But because it's such a weak draft for the first time those teams might consider a quick-fix option over a young prospect, even if it costs them a little extra coin.
    That's exactly what I find peculiar. People keep saying there's not a lot of sure things...but you've got the Spurs - the Spurs - probably the best drafting team in the history of the league, looking to trade their most recent finals MVP for one of those "uncertain" rookies. Then you've got the Lakers talking with Minnesota - rumours of which haven't yet been quashed - about trading the guy they wouldn't trade before in order to keep Kobe from leaving for what would likely be Derrick Williams.

    I don't know, maybe it's just me, but if the Spurs come calling asking for me for a high lotto pick in exchange for a part of their core, I couldn't help but have to reconsider my draft pick valuations.

    And Tim - how could you think the Spurs want anyone but Valanciunas? To me it's clearly the guy they want. I can see where Knight would fit, but the Spurs have to be licking their chops over the prospect of being able to pry Valanciunas from other more desperate teams. They can wait on him to develop. And when he does, they'll have not only stolen Blair, but J.V. from the rest of the league, and along with Splitter will have their frontcourt beyond adequately manned for the next 10 years.

  13. #53
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    What if the trade allowed us to get SAC's pick such as:
    SAC: Bargnani, Bayless
    SAS: #5, Calderon
    TOR: #7, #29, Parker, OCasspi, JThompson
    Draft: Biyombo at 7, and a PG at 29 like Darius Morris (if he falls), Iman Shumpert (if he doesn't rise too far), Reggie Jackson or Julyan Stone.

    PG: TParker, Shumpert/Jackson/Stone
    SG: DDerozan, LBarbosa
    SF: JJ, OCasspi, LKleiza
    PF: ED, Amir
    C: Biyombo, JThompson, SAlabi
    Salary: ~46.5M with LB coming off next year (if he opts in or isn't extended at less $), Parker is around 3yrs (4th if not bought out) to develop/mentor the PG drafted, Casspi and Parker provide 3pt shooting, the big rotation is very solid D with average O, scoring from the backcourt.
    That's a pretty raw deal from a Kings standpoint. Giving up the 7th pick plus Casspi and Thompson for Bargnani and Bayless? Too little talent coming back their way.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    I normally have to preface my response with, "do you understand how the salary cap works?", but seeing as we have no idea what the new CBA will be like, I'll refrain. That said, I am highly doubtful that the new CBA will make it even easier to acquire free agents when above a set salary, and that is why trading a potentially cheap and controllable asset for a potential albatross is a BAD idea.
    I think this point, along with TimW's comment about how many wins Parker would add pretty much end the discussion. You can make a good argument that the #5 pick + whatever is fair value for Parker but adding Parker isn't going to make this a 55 win team and doesn't really change much. Now, if trading for Parker is step #1 and you are looking at adding an elite player alongside of him then the trade starts to make sense. But I don't think the Raps have the pieces to do a Boston-style rebuild in one offseason by acquiring 2 or 3 stars.

  15. #55
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    Quote RaptorDan wrote: View Post
    I'd be very interested to see which player the Spurs would draft with the 5th - and then draft that guy.

    If Parker comes to Toronto, I wonder which player's wife he would sext with first?
    Apparently I guessed wrong. The reports say the Spurs are targeting Valanciunas, who has, not coincidentally, risen to the top of my wish list.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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  16. #56
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    That's a pretty raw deal from a Kings standpoint. Giving up the 7th pick plus Casspi and Thompson for Bargnani and Bayless? Too little talent coming back their way.
    Perhaps, but new rumours that San Antonio want to include RJefferson could have him going to SAC, SAS drop themselves under the cap while, potentially, getting their big man rotation for the years to come, and SAC gets the veteran presence they say they want this year.

    SAC would then look like:
    PG: JBayless, BUdrih, PJeter
    SG: TEvans, MThornton, FGarcia
    SF: RJefferson, DGreene
    PF: DCousins, DJackson, HWhiteside
    C: ABargnani, SDalembert (re-sign)
    I am not so convinced they shun that, especially since they would still be under the cap (current #s) even with re-signing Sammy D.

  17. #57
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    Perhaps, but new rumours that San Antonio want to include RJefferson could have him going to SAC, SAS drop themselves under the cap while, potentially, getting their big man rotation for the years to come, and SAC gets the veteran presence they say they want this year.

    SAC would then look like:
    PG: JBayless, BUdrih, PJeter
    SG: TEvans, MThornton, FGarcia
    SF: RJefferson, DGreene
    PF: DCousins, DJackson, HWhiteside
    C: ABargnani, SDalembert (re-sign)
    I am not so convinced they shun that, especially since they would still be under the cap (current #s) even with re-signing Sammy D.
    I'm pretty sure they'll shun that. I don't think you'll find any Kings fan that would advocate their team taking on Bargnani and a steadily declining Richard Jefferson (not to mention he has 3 years and 30 million left on that contract) for the lotto pick, Casspi and Thompson.

    Out of curiousity and from a Raptors standpoint/fan, would you let Bayless have the reigns to the PG position next season?

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I'm pretty sure they'll shun that. I don't think you'll find any Kings fan that would advocate their team taking on Bargnani and a steadily declining Richard Jefferson (not to mention he has 3 years and 30 million left on that contract) for the lotto pick, Casspi and Thompson.

    Out of curiousity and from a Raptors standpoint/fan, would you let Bayless have the reigns to the PG position next season?
    I am not averse to it. He is not the style of PG I prefer, personally, but it definitely depends upon who we draft/can draft. If we have a shot at Kanter with only one pick, then I am good to go, but if Kanter is gone, I would be more inclined to draft Walker or Knight, and gain another pick to get Biyombo.

    You?

  19. #59
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    If you don't care about winning anytime soon then Bayless is an option. They can even go get Milt Palacio to come in and back him.

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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I am not averse to it. He is not the style of PG I prefer, personally, but it definitely depends upon who we draft/can draft. If we have a shot at Kanter with only one pick, then I am good to go, but if Kanter is gone, I would be more inclined to draft Walker or Knight, and gain another pick to get Biyombo.

    You?
    I wouldn't, which is why I'm really liking Walker or Knight at number 5.

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