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Thread: Draft Review From The Media

  1. #61
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    Quote bloodyhandedgod wrote: View Post
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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately the other side is based on prejudices that are unwarranted. Everything Raptors' fans want in their players they are getting, and more, from Jonas.
    Yes, anyone who isn't crazy about this pick just is full of unwarranted prejudice. Why must someone who disagrees with you have the worst of motives and characteristics attributed to them? You have no skepticism at all about a 7'0, 19-year old who weighs 230pounds, who you've never watched play a full game, and who is years away from contributing? None at all? Totally sold that he's a franchise centre? And if I'm filled with even a little skepticism I'm a bigot? Come on. The Raptors have been burned time and time again drafting int'l bigs and now they've... drafted an int'l big. It's somehow an abnormal reaction for people to go, 'here we go again'? I don't think it is.

    On the second point, let's wait until he is over and actually playing in NBA games before we unequivocally state what it is that he is bringing to Toronto.

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    Quote bloodyhandedgod wrote: View Post
    I smile every time I say ... Chukwudiebere Maduabum
    its not even the first name... its the last name that strikes my "uncontrollable giggle" nerve

  4. #64
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Yes, anyone who isn't crazy about this pick just is full of unwarranted prejudice. Why must someone who disagrees with you have the worst of motives and characteristics attributed to them? You have no skepticism at all about a 7'0, 19-year old who weighs 230pounds, who you've never watched play a full game, and who is years away from contributing? None at all? Totally sold that he's a franchise centre? And if I'm filled with even a little skepticism I'm a bigot? Come on. The Raptors have been burned time and time again drafting int'l bigs and now they've... drafted an int'l big. It's somehow an abnormal reaction for people to go, 'here we go again'? I don't think it is.

    On the second point, let's wait until he is over and actually playing in NBA games before we unequivocally state what it is that he is bringing to Toronto.
    You don't have skepticism about every other player the Raptors could have chosen? Valanciunas certainly has a few question marks, but so did everyone else, including Kemba and Knight. That was the main thing about this draft, there were really no safe picks.
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    Quote bloodyhandedgod wrote: View Post
    Since when does someone rate a Draft based on how it will help right now? And that is still not right. We now have a player who has a high upside that we would have to trade away to lose. We're a better team right now for it.
    kahn was not riped for drafting rubio? we don't get a pass on this one

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You don't have skepticism about every other player the Raptors could have chosen? Valanciunas certainly has a few question marks, but so did everyone else, including Kemba and Knight. That was the main thing about this draft, there were really no safe picks.
    My point is that a lot of 'you're a racist', 'you're a bigot' accusations are getting tossed around at a lot of fans who simply don't like the pick. This is ridiculous. It's an easy way to shut down people but it isn't true and it's unfair.

    The other point that people like Grange (even though his hackey, faux morally superior, leftie leanings are on full display), DNB and others are alluding to (that I and others here raised before the draft) is that this reaction was entirely predictable. Not every Raptor fan is a hardcore draft junkie. Most never heard of this guy and have never seen him play. What they understand is that he measures out a lot like a certain current Raptor and they just shake their heads and say, 'here we go again'. The ghosts of Bargnani, Araujo, et al. are going to haunt this kid. When, or if, he gets to the NBA, one bad game and he is going to get ripped to pieces.

    It's fine to say that the right pick isn't the popular one (I have no idea since I've never seen this guy play) but this is a 22-win team with declining attendance that is facing a lockout and looks to be bad for a very long time. There are two ways to quickly become irrelevant as a business: put out a crappy product and thumb your nose in your customers' collective face. The Raptors need to tread carefully.

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    All players at the draft are subject to skepticism. However, many people close to the situation wondered where JV would be without the buyout situation. He was a player that was going to shoot up regardless while both Kemba and Knight shot down and they're ready to play this coming season. What does that tell you about Jonas (who was rated higher than Enes in some boards)? Yes, Araujo was painful and Andrea is still a pain for me. But to paint every white European in the same light is unfair.
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  8. #68
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    My point is that a lot of 'you're a racist', 'you're a bigot' accusations are getting tossed around at a lot of fans who simply don't like the pick. This is ridiculous. It's an easy way to shut down people but it isn't true and it's unfair.

    The other point that people like Grange (even though his hackey, faux morally superior, leftie leanings are on full display), DNB and others are alluding to (that I and others here raised before the draft) is that this reaction was entirely predictable. Not every Raptor fan is a hardcore draft junkie. Most never heard of this guy and have never seen him play. What they understand is that he measures out a lot like a certain current Raptor and they just shake their heads and say, 'here we go again'. The ghosts of Bargnani, Araujo, et al. are going to haunt this kid. When, or if, he gets to the NBA, one bad game and he is going to get ripped to pieces.

    It's fine to say that the right pick isn't the popular one (I have no idea since I've never seen this guy play) but this is a 22-win team with declining attendance that is facing a lockout and looks to be bad for a very long time. There are two ways to quickly become irrelevant as a business: put out a crappy product and thumb your nose in your customers' collective face. The Raptors need to tread carefully.
    I think that some of the most vocal criticism of the pick ARE from people who simply don't like him because he's European, and it's painted most critics of the pick the same way. I agree it's unfair.

    My feeling, though, is if you aren't a fan who's very knowledgeable, then why the hell do you think you know better than the guy running the team with two Executive of the Year awards? I think what's wrong is that uninformed people don't seem to understand they don't know anything. And apparently aren't afraid of looking stupid.

    That's not to say you can't have legitimate concerns about drafting him, but most of the people that seem to HATE the pick simply have no idea what they're talking about, and it's unfortunate that they believe they need to voice their opinion. Generally if I'm not informed about something, I don't spout off about it pretending like I do.

    (Keep in mind, this is not directed at you.)
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    Quote grindhouse wrote: View Post
    kahn was not riped for drafting rubio? we don't get a pass on this one
    Actually he was ripped for drafting Flynn right after Rubio. And for trading for/signing a handful of small forwards last year, and signing yet more PG's..

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    Quote grindhouse wrote: View Post
    kahn was not riped for drafting rubio? we don't get a pass on this one
    As has already mentioned, he was ripped for drafting two PGs right after the other. And, at this point, Rubio is not the bad pick. Flynn is, and he was a good NCAA player many felt would make an immediate impact. If Rubio ends up being the 2nd or 3rd best player in his draft, then I highly doubt anyone is going to whine about how it took him two years to make it over to the NBA. And the T-Wolves will be a better team for the long term.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You're also likely wrong because of the fact that Valanciunas was the consensus best player available (by most respected basketball people), and, well, because you usually seem to be.
    on the contrary I am almost always right - I have been following and posting about the raps since day 1 when I was a wee lad and barely knew which side of the monitor was viewable.
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  13. #73
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Yes, anyone who isn't crazy about this pick just is full of unwarranted prejudice. Why must someone who disagrees with you have the worst of motives and characteristics attributed to them? You have no skepticism at all about a 7'0, 19-year old who weighs 230pounds, who you've never watched play a full game, and who is years away from contributing? None at all? Totally sold that he's a franchise centre? And if I'm filled with even a little skepticism I'm a bigot? Come on. The Raptors have been burned time and time again drafting int'l bigs and now they've... drafted an int'l big. It's somehow an abnormal reaction for people to go, 'here we go again'? I don't think it is.

    On the second point, let's wait until he is over and actually playing in NBA games before we unequivocally state what it is that he is bringing to Toronto.
    Excuse me?

    Did you read the comment to which I replied? Disagreeing with me is hardly an issue - people do it frequently and I am happy to exchange views. Your questioning of my comment after watching the Euro-centric bashing today is ridiculous.

    Actually, no you are not a bigot because your criticisms are basketball based - lack of size, years away from contributing - and are valid.

    What I would suggest you do is look through the posts today and see how many people are commenting, directly or indirectly, on nothing more than his birthplace, upbringing, and skin colour. The guy is about as different from Bargnani as one can get yet he is getting crucified before ever showing up here - the only similarity is the high percentage from the charity stripe.

    Is he a franchise centre? I don't know but there are plenty of people with more experience and expertise than myself (outside the Raptors organization) who seem to think so. Many have claimed he could be the top player from this draft when it is all said and done.

    As for the getting burned on international bigs, here is the draft history of the Raps:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...TOR/draft.html

    Getting burned on international bigs? You call drafting Bargnani getting burned? While he was #1 he is still the second best in the top 5 and top 5 of the entire draft that year - hardly a burn despite his flaws. You call drafting Bavcic and Slokar busts at 56 and 58? Seriously - 56 and 58? Araujo was a bust, no doubt, and also picked by one of the worst GM's ever, yet managed to return Kris Humphries in a subsequent trade by BC. Ukic was not an NBA player but he filled a role as a third stringer and returned value in a trade by BC.

    So with those international draft picks out of the way, besides Araujo, we are left with one international draft pick that truly was a bust and that was in 1999. Personally, the Araujo fiasco that was Babcock should be deleted from all Raptors fans.

    Now what about our American draft picks - specifically bigs. Camby? 2 years and gone. Bradley? Up there with Kapano in horrible contracts. Charlie V? UConn flavoured Bargnani. Davis? Awesome.

    The draft is a crap shoot. Remember how highly all these guys are thought of today and look at where draft picks of 1 and 2 years ago are today in people's perceptions. Where they are from should be little more than a footnote. Many fans are making it the whole story and that is the problem.

  14. #74
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    its not even the first name... its the last name that strikes my "uncontrollable giggle" nerve
    Even more than Boniface N'Dong?
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post


    book mark my words all you lovers of Yi Darko and Nikoloz Tskitishvili - see you in 3-5 years ... have your apologies ready. All together now " ONLY DRAFT NCAA PROVEN TALENT "
    Like Eddie Griffin? Michael Bradley? Mike Sweetney? Rafael Araujo? Sean May? SHeldon Williams? Ike Diogu? Charlie V? Hakim Warrick? Tyrus Thomas? Hilton Armstrong? Patrick O'Bryant? Boone? Sean Wiliiams? Brandan WRight? Joe Alexander? Thabeet? JOrdan Hill? Aldrich? Udoh?

    That is not even paying attention to guards or wings.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Like Eddie Griffin? Michael Bradley? Mike Sweetney? Rafael Araujo? Sean May? SHeldon Williams? Ike Diogu? Charlie V? Hakim Warrick? Tyrus Thomas? Hilton Armstrong? Patrick O'Bryant? Boone? Sean Wiliiams? Brandan WRight? Joe Alexander? Thabeet? JOrdan Hill? Aldrich? Udoh?

    That is not even paying attention to guards or wings.
    lets not forget adam morrison and countless others - soon to add the Jimmer to that list once they see him try to guard

    The point is this: the hit ratio is much better with proven NCAA talent. Hoffa sweetness Marcus Fizer Diogu are all tweeners and none of the good GM's would touch them. Also we are talking about a number 5 pick some of those guys mentioned are not even lottery players....

    Elite teams have at most 1 or 2 NON-NCAA proven guys in their 8 man rotation. Its a fact the Bulls lakers Mavs OKC portland Boston Miami on and on....

    Champions Detroit Chicago Spurs Miami Lakers ... it is a fact (and yes I know kobe did not play in NCAA - he is a freakish exception).
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  17. #77
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think that some of the most vocal criticism of the pick ARE from people who simply don't like him because he's European, and it's painted most critics of the pick the same way. I agree it's unfair.

    My feeling, though, is if you aren't a fan who's very knowledgeable, then why the hell do you think you know better than the guy running the team with two Executive of the Year awards? I think what's wrong is that uninformed people don't seem to understand they don't know anything. And apparently aren't afraid of looking stupid.

    That's not to say you can't have legitimate concerns about drafting him, but most of the people that seem to HATE the pick simply have no idea what they're talking about, and it's unfortunate that they believe they need to voice their opinion. Generally if I'm not informed about something, I don't spout off about it pretending like I do.

    (Keep in mind, this is not directed at you.)
    Outside of the people who don't like the pick for a myraid of different reasons, I'm not so sure people dislike him because he's European, but dislike that BC drafted another European. And thats a distinction that may need to be made here. Now are they taking their anger out on JV, sure. But EVERYONE knew (or should have known) that would happen if BC took Val, Vesley or Motiejunas. BC taking JV was lighting a match in a dynamite factory. Right or wrong the results shouldn't be a suprise.

    Raptors history with drafting Euro bigs has not been positive one. And while other teams have had success, the Raps have not. Almost any player in any draft is a risk, but I think its pretty clear this isn't the type of risk a large segment of the Raptors fan base (knowledgeable or not) wanted the organization to take.

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    on the contrary I am almost always right - I have been following and posting about the raps since day 1 when I was a wee lad and barely knew which side of the monitor was viewable.
    Man are you young. That does explain your penchant for being wrong, though.
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Outside of the people who don't like the pick for a myraid of different reasons, I'm not so sure people dislike him because he's European, but dislike that BC drafted another European. And thats a distinction that may need to be made here. Now are they taking their anger out on JV, sure. But EVERYONE knew (or should have known) that would happen if BC took Val, Vesley or Motiejunas. BC taking JV was lighting a match in a dynamite factory. Right or wrong the results shouldn't be a suprise.

    Raptors history with drafting Euro bigs has not been positive one. And while other teams have had success, the Raps have not. Almost any player in any draft is a risk, but I think its pretty clear this isn't the type of risk a large segment of the Raptors fan base (knowledgeable or not) wanted the organization to take.
    The Raptors have drafted 2 European bigs in the first round. Bargnani and Radojevic. Hard to say it's a history.
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