For all those who thought and still think that someone like Kawhi Leonard would be a better pick than JV, consider this. How many nanoseconds would it take San Antonio to say "yes" if Colangelo now offered JV for Leonard? Or what about Indiana, who just traded Leonard for George Hill? Do you think Colangelo would have any trouble trading JV for George Hill? People need to give their head a shake and realize that this pick wasn't just some Euro reach by Colangelo. JV is highly regarded across the NBA. Oh, and anyone who thinks that Brandon Knight or Kemba Walker would have a huge impact in their first season, go back and see how much impact players like Rondo, Westbrook, Wall, etc. had in their first year. Each of those players are arguably much higher in potential than any of the point guards that were available this year.
I want a trade soon. Need one. This team has to look different. Still looks the same. Need something.
“I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, he’s listed as Chu Chu. I think he’s worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name.” -Tim W.
I'm not upset that we took JV over Kawhi. I'm just upset about Kawhi because he slid so much, and it was the Spurs who finally nabbed him. The Spurs quietly had another very solid draft. Those....competent bastards. Kawhi's ceiling may not be super high (who knows?) but the Spurs wouldn't have given up Hill if they didn't feel they had a good read on his likelihood of impacting the game how they want. Meanwhile, they also drafted Cory Joseph, who can now develop into Hill's role, essentially, which is probably the right kind of guy/role for him to target. Again...competent bastards...
To all the people who thinks this pick has us back 3 to4 years! I ask this question..what player would of prevented this? Knight will not be a good player next year, he is years away as well but Val will be the true rebounding rim protecting center we have never had. BC well done! We are lucky to have you!!!
If you want to argue based on what other teams did, then you have me. In 2-3 years, when frustrations with JV *really* begin those who loved this pick will very likely use that same excuse: That other teams tried to trade up for him, or that some journalists thought he was the steal of the draft -- therefore you couldn't really blame BC.
I'll blame BC because I have watched the film and I see a player that can be best described as Shawn Bradley with slightly more athleticism. The only fair excuse I can think of is that everyone saw what Chandler was able to do during the playoffs and people fell in love with an "idea". Do you understand how hard it is for a raw, skinny big man with no offensive skills to become that rugged center that every team wants? People are making comparisons to Joakim Noah. Do you realize how bad Joakim Noah was in his rookie and sophomore years? He was 22 when he was drafted. JV is 19. I'm thinking of a best case scenario where JV is an effective starter by 2014, and I doubt he will ever average 35 minutes per game in the NBA.
2014 is 3 years from now. Do you know "opportunity cost" is?
This pick doesn't just cost whatever is spent on JV. Opportunity cost measure that against foregoing the best alternative. If you spend taxes on a prison that you could have spent on a school, that is the opportunity cost.
Right now, the measure of this pick is whatever another player could have given you this season, plus the seasons that it'll take for JV to become an effective starter. And that's assuming he does, which is a pretty big presumption. I'm watching the same videos that people have talked about and I see a bunch of pick and rolls and dump off passes. WTF.
It's all nice to say "one step backward and two steps forward", but I would argue that the Raptors are already standing against a cliff. Let's build a championship team, fine, but it's still a business and good luck selling the fans on Calderon and Bargnani for another season. The average Joe is likely to look at that and say "They were terrible last year. What's changed?". So far, nothing. And with the contracts on the payroll, it's just going to be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for awhile as far as trades go.
Btw, to all you who keep basing your arguments on the fact that he's a Euro -- shame on you. There is no reason for that. This is a bad pick because it was a bad pick. Period. Not because of where he was born.
ebrian, saying this was a bad pick simply because it was a bad pick, is opinion. Also one that I do not agree with.
Whether Bargnani or Calderon are still around is yet to be seen, and has little bearing on the pick. Had Kemba been picked for example, it put Bayless on the trade front as much or more than Calderon, so again the pick would have little bearing on them.Let's build a championship team, fine, but it's still a business and good luck selling the fans on Calderon and Bargnani for another season
And by picking a player that is better now, but not better (than JV) later, that is an opportunity cost. It depends upon which angle you want to look at it from, being snide at Tim with links to definitions is petty.This pick doesn't just cost whatever is spent on JV. Opportunity cost measure that against foregoing the best alternative. If you spend taxes on a prison that you could have spent on a school, that is the opportunity cost.
Actually many on here have been talking about him for some time, since November in some cases (see Raul). Sure there are bandwagon jumpers, as there are with Knight, Kemba, Leonard, and 100% Biyombo (me included there), but personally I have seen discussion on him for many months, not just since the finals. Perhaps that is when you tuned into the discussion.The only fair excuse I can think of is that everyone saw what Chandler was able to do during the playoffs and people fell in love with an "idea".
Yes you have your opinion, and Tim and others have theirs (add note: you do appear to be in the minority on your opinion). Debate and discussion is good, but it seems to be degrading a little into just being snippy and condescending.
You remind of someone who was cheering for Ed O'Bannon back in the day. Kemba is going to disappoint you in Charlotte for many years to come. However, I respect you for your opinion, I just happen to disagree with it. Cheers.
Last edited by Balls of Steel; Sat Jun 25th, 2011 at 08:02 PM.
“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King
No one knows how ANY player will perform in the NBA. You just be as informed as you can and hope for the best.
Will it take a few years for him to really hit his stride? But I'm pretty sure the Raptors aren't going to be a threat to make the Finals before 2014, so I really don't understand what your point is. The Raptors are a young team and can afford to wait. DeRozan, Davis, Amir, Bayless, James Johnson and even Alabi are all under the age of 25. 2014 is probably when this team will just be hitting it's stride and really competing, so if that's when Valanciunas starts to become an effective starter, then that's actually great timing.
Besides, Valanciunas is the type of player that can be effective even before he's fully developed, because he hustles and works hard. What I find funny about all the reaction is that he's exactly the type of player that Raptor fans love.
And if the pick was a bad pick, it was a bad pick, but you could say the same if it was Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker or Biyombo, all of whom have just as much chance of doing very little in the NBA. You talk as if Valanciunas is really that much more of a gamble than the other options and that's simply not true. I had reservations about every player, including Valanciunas. I personally think Knight is the biggest gamble, because if he can't play the point, which I question whether he can, he's basically just a shorter Barbosa. At best.
I just don't understand how you can say make that argument when there wasn't one single sure thing who was an option. And if the pick is successful, then it has the chance to have a far more positive effect on the franchise than anyone else could have.
In 3 years if James Johnson and Jerryd Bayless are anything more than human victory cigars, we'll be in big trouble.
The hope is JV proves me wrong, but I always look at the big picture, and in the big picture I see the Raptors potentially wasting the next 5 years on a player that will likely never amount to much. Another hope is that if there's another big man available, whoever the GM is by then doesn't think we're set at the position. Missed opportunities, as well as wasted years will be key to coming out of this as unscathed as possible.
As I said, I see JV becoming an effective starter somewhere between 3-5 years. Detroit was lucky that they only stuck with Darko for 3 years.. Washington stuck with Kwame for 4... Chicago with Eddy Curry (and then New York). The problem with drafting these types of projects who have several issues to their game is people wait longer for big men to produce, thus more wasted years before realizing it's time to cut them off.
Anyway, I've said my peace. There's nothing to do but wait.
Last edited by ebrian; Sat Jun 25th, 2011 at 11:30 PM.
And what if the Raptors drafted Walker and he turned out to be bust? Valanciunas at least has the size and mobility to be a contributor even if he doesn't fulfill his potential, like Darko and Kwame). Walker, at worst, probably doesn't stick in the league for more than a few years.
I understand you don't like the pick, but what you (and most others) don't seem to realize is that there were no safe picks. None. Besides, the teams that make the safe picks end up with the safe teams. Decent, but never good. Indiana was great at making safe picks. And it lead to mediocrity.
As for James Johnson, if he can get himself a consistent jumpshot, something that can be easily attained through hard work, he can be a starter in the league. There's literally no reason he can't become a decent starter in the NBA. The only question is whether he is willing to do what it takes to get there. Like Bayless, he wasn't given much of a chance before coming to the Raptors.
No matter who you take, it's a gamble. You'll have wasted a high lottery pick. The teams that go the safest routes usually end up with mediocre teams, at best. Valanciunas MAY have been a bigger risk (although that's debatable) but he's also the bigger payoff if he succeeds. There's a reason why teams are willing to gamble far more on centers than other players. Basically, it comes down to whether you want the one cookie, or two.
Please, please, please stop using "opportunity cost" in this discussion. It's not a matter of understanding how opportunity cost works; everything stated here is mere opinion. "We're going to waste 5 years on Valanciunas before realizing he's a bust" is an opinion. "It's only going to take 2 years to realize the same about Walker" is an opinion. If I was hellbent against Walker, I could make the same argument. Here, let me try:
If Valanciunas is a bust, we'll know sometime during the second year of his contract (three seasons from now). We could tell pretty early that Bargnani would never be what people had hoped for him to be. We won't make the same mistake twice with these Euros. If Walker turns out to be a bust, we'll have invested 4-6 years on him. We'll be stuck on his NCAA credentials and all his intangibles. There's no way someone like him could possibly fail in this league. We'll look back at the Billups and the Nashes of the league. Both PGs only became what they are now in the 5th season of their careers. Nash was even a four-year college grad, yet it's apparent that Phoenix should have been more patient with him.
This is probably where I would start talking about opportunity cost, and how we'd waste less time going with Valanciunas. Except this isn't really an exercise in Economics 101, but in recognizing an opinion for what it is.
Center is one of the most difficult positions to play. I don't think two years is a fair window. I think you need to view centers like NFL wide receivers. You need to give them a good three year window at least to know where they're headed. Most are offering praise to JV, suggesting he's the best center prospect in the draft. You can at least hang your hat on the fact that the majority of people in the field like the pick. The Spurs were trying to move a cornerstone PG to grab him, that should tell you a lot right there in itself. When Bargnani was drafted the response was lukewarm at best in most circles. He doesn't play like Bargnani, he's not entering into the same situation as Bargnani and won't be treated the same way as Bargnani. We need to draw a line in the sand here, we're talking apples and oranges.
And for the record, Bargnani was not a "mistake" or a bust. I feel people saying that are being unfair and looking at this out of context. The pick made a lot of sense in 2006 given the roster and Bargnani's abilities and attributes. He's a very talented player to this day and there are few big men not named Dirk who can score the ball better than him. He and the Raptors both share a role in his failure to live up to expectations. He's a one way player due to his desire and the Raptors lack of tough love from start to present. Sam did the right thing early on, but seemed to be pressured into backing off... That was the mistake.
The selection of JV now makes a lot of sense. He's at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to priorities on the floor. JV is a red, Bargnani is a... Violet.
Last edited by Apollo; Tue Jun 28th, 2011 at 09:07 AM. Reason: had a little more to say
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