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Thread: 2012 Draft Thursday, June 28th: Raptors select Terence Ross

  1. #261
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Yes I know. But it's not. Which is ultimately my point.
    There is another 5 months to determine who exactly is the best player in the pack; and then, we have to figure out where exactly we will end up picking. Which, the odds are not #1.
    I remember 2009 where at the start of the season right through to sometime after Christmas you had Jordan Hill, and Earl Clark and B.J. Mullens ranked really high, as in top five high. Meanwhile DeRozan and Curry weren't even in people's top tens. More games were played, the tourney took place and suddenly Hill, Clark and Mullens all fell while DeRozan and Curry rose. A lot can change.


    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    And Harrison Barnes is, in my opinion and many others, a can't-miss prospect, who would fit PERFECTLY in with our current core group of talent. A core group that I believe will be able to win alot of games as is, if given the chance to grow together.
    I was on the Barnes wagon last June and I still haven't gotten off. He's the guy who makes the most sense to me.

    As for Anthony Davis, I'll just say one thing. Haven't the Raptors invested enough time in "fancy" PF's? They're good there and it's not like Davis is standing out far above everyone else in this draft class...

    I expect Terrence Jones to be in the top ten by the time June rolls around. Colangelo loves his Point Forwards and that's what Jones is. Just a saying.

    I need to see Jeremy Lamb play.

  2. #262
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    The draft is simple: take the best player available. If it is a PF, so be it.

    Regarding Anthony Davis, despite his mediocre showing today, the thought of him and JV together is good on offense and ridiculous on defense. It appears his potential is off the charts with physical abilities, skills, drive, desire and length. As he catches up to his body.... wow. For all the match up nightmares Bargnani can create, Davis appears to have the same ability in time - maybe more.

    Do not get me wrong. I'm not looking to pack his bags. However there is no question in my mind Anthony is a better prospect for the Raptors - or any team. The reality is unless Toronto drafts 1 or 2, they likely won't have a shot anyways.

    The great thing about the Raptors is the flexibility they will have moving forward. If a PF is the best player available in the draft, they will certainly have opportunities to address other areas with trade chips and cap space. Players like Gay (trade) and Batum (free agency) could be available. A player like Bargnani or ED alone, with a future draft pick, and/or taking on contract deemed onerous for another team could fetch another lottery pick.

    Who knows what will happen.

    UNC versus Kentucky December 3rd will certainly add fuel to this debate, though!

  3. #263
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    Default Myck Kabongo

    The first time Myck Kabongo left an impression on Dan Hurley, his former coach for three years at St. Benedict’s High School and now the head coach at Wagner, was before he even got to the school. The two had spoken on the phone on a Saturday night about Kabongo coming down from his native Toronto to see a practice and check out the school. The next day, at 3 p.m., Kabongo was there — with AAU teammate Tristan Thompson in tow.

    That was just the first impression. Over the course of their time together, there would be many others. There was the time his junior year when he hit a buzzer-beater to beat St. Patrick’s and outplayed eventual NBA first overall pick Kyrie Irving. The list could go on, all indicative of the esteem with which Hurley holds his former point guard after a nine-year coaching stop at the school.

    “He’s right there,” Hurley said of where Kabongo stands amongst his best players. “I thought he was earmarked to be the best one just because he was so good at his position. He has all of the qualities you would want to be a great college player and great NBA player down the road. For me he projected to be the best one that I would have coached and we coached some good ones.”

    That’s high praise from Hurley — who has coached Thompson, J.R. Smith and Samardo Samuels, among others. But Kabongo’s basketball skills aren’t the first things Hurley mentioned when talking about the now-freshman at Texas.

    One reason Kabongo looks forward to returning to New Jersey to play Oregon State in the semifinals of the Legends Classic tonight at the Izod Center is because of the relationship he built with the Hurleys.

    “I’m very excited,” Kabongo said. “It’s like my second home — my third home now because Toronto is one, Texas is two and Jersey is three.”

    While Wagner travels to Lafayette, Hurley’s wife and children will stay local to watch Kabongo — the same kid that used to stay over a few weekends a month and play with Hurley’s two sons. The same kid that still calls Hurley’s wife on Mother’s Day and on her birthday. The same kid that she now sends brownies and cookies to.

    “Myck was one of the handful guys that I would say I was the closest to on a personal level while coaching at St. Benedict’s because we spent so much time together,” Hurley said. “He became extraordinarily close with my children, my wife and myself. So the relationship probably went beyond the player-coach.

    “He was great with my sons. He’d be outside playing sports with them, he’d be in the basement playing video games, he’d be running around … playing army. He’s one of the top players in the country who has all these people tugging at him and treating him like a commodity, yet when he would come to my house he would be a normal kid and would take the time.”

    But Kabongo left St. Benedict’s for Findlay Prep when Hurley left for Wagner .

    Now he’ll return as one of the most exciting freshmen in college basketball. He’s a projected first-round pick who flirted with a triple-double in just his second collegiate game. Hurley has seen enough to put Kabongo in some rare company.

    “You talk about some of these guys that have the ‘it’ factor,” he said. “Maybe I saw it with my brother (Bobby), I think my brother had the ‘it’ factor as a player at Duke and I think Myck has the ‘it’ factor to go along with all of the physical attributes that you want in a great player.”
    Source


    Is it just me or does it feel like Kabongo is destined to be a Raptor? With DeRozan and JV looking for a long term lobber, obviously the hometown connection, and a Raptors team that seems to have lacked a true leader for a number of years, I hope the stars align.

  4. #264
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Yes I know. But it's not. Which is ultimately my point.
    There is another 5 months to determine who exactly is the best player in the pack; and then, we have to figure out where exactly we will end up picking. Which, the odds are not #1.

    I'd like to see the team commit to Ed Davis (who IS a defensive monster already), Valanciunas and Demar. Which makes me more inclined to view potential picks in terms of how they will fit with our current 'core'. (which also includes are current 'Star Power Forward' player don't forget, Andrea Bargnani.)

    And Harrison Barnes is, in my opinion and many others, a can't-miss prospect, who would fit PERFECTLY in with our current core group of talent. A core group that I believe will be able to win alot of games as is, if given the chance to grow together.

    You make it seem as if we'd be a 22-win team no matter what unless we get Anthony Davis.
    Also a can't-miss prospect, but would ultimately require some moving up in the draft, and some movement of our current core group of players to accomodate. Both of which, I'm not really taking into consideration.
    You're trying to select a house based on the furniture you already have. That's not the best way to do it. However much I like many of the players the Raptors already have, they are all complimentary pieces (Valanciunas may or may not be, but we don't know at this point). The Raptors need to pick whoever has the best chance to be their franchise player and then adjust their roster to him.

    And I'm not suggesting the only way the Raptors won't be a 22 win team is by drafting Davis. I'm suggesting that when you're one of the worst teams in the league, the last thing you should do worry about who's already on your team when you draft. In last year's draft, Cleveland picked Tristan Thompson over Valanciunas despite most feeling that Valanciunas was the better player because Thompson filled a more immediate need. If Valanciunas turns out to be better than Thompson, ten years from now, no one is going to remember that Thompson filled a more immediate need, but that Cleveland missed out on the better player. Hell, look at Ed Davis. The main reason Davis fell to 13 was because teams drafting ahead of the Raptors needed other positions more than PF. And now Davis is in the conversation for the top 5 players from his draft. If they had the chance to draft over, I'm guessing some of those teams would pick differently.

    Speaking of Davis, I liked him even before the draft and have been one of his biggest backers all year, but however much I like him, he's probably a borderline All-Star, at best. If I'm picking in the draft, for the Raptors, there isn't one position I would shy away from selecting. If Jeremy Lamb is the best player available, then I'll pick him despite DeRozan being on the roster. If Andre Drummond is the best player, then he's who I pick despite Valanciunas being on the roster.

    As for WHERE the Raptors pick, obviously no one knows. I'm just saying who I like just as you've been hyping Barnes. And I actually think the Raptors have a pretty good chance at picking first. They won 22 games last year and probably will trot out a similar roster this time. There's no reason to think the results will be much different.

    All I know is that, while I like Barnes, Anthony Davis has a talent that I've rarely seen, especially in someone so young. He's basically a guard in a big man's body, and not in a bad way (like Bargnani). He still does all the things a big man needs to do, like defend, rebound and score inside, and VERY well, but he also can shoot from outside, handle the ball and is an exceptional passer. His outlet passes are almost Waltonesque. Plus he's got a 7'4 wingspan and a high basketball IQ.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Is it just me or does it feel like Kabongo is destined to be a Raptor?
    Not just you. I've been saying it for 2 years. haha Keep your fingers crossed.

    Great article.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

  6. #266
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    All I know is that, while I like Barnes, Anthony Davis has a talent that I've rarely seen, especially in someone so young. He's basically a guard in a big man's body, and not in a bad way (like Bargnani). He still does all the things a big man needs to do, like defend, rebound and score inside, and VERY well, but he also can shoot from outside, handle the ball and is an exceptional passer. His outlet passes are almost Waltonesque. Plus he's got a 7'4 wingspan and a high basketball IQ.
    And I.....


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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Source


    Is it just me or does it feel like Kabongo is destined to be a Raptor? With DeRozan and JV looking for a long term lobber, obviously the hometown connection, and a Raptors team that seems to have lacked a true leader for a number of years, I hope the stars align.
    I need to watch more of Kabongo. I like a lot of what I've hear about him but have seen so little. From what I know about him, I'd love to see him in a Raptor uniform, I just wonder if the Raptors will have a chance to draft him. They'll likely have to get a 2nd top 15 pick and I don't know how easy those will be to come by.
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    i like Quincy Miller i think he'll be one of the top SF's this draft

    I like Miller less after seeing that. I've seen clips of him and think he's certainly got talent, but his attitude and the whole "It's easy" thing was a HUGE turnoff. I don't mind the stare-down after the dunk or great play in certain circumstances (I've done it myself), but after a while you just start looking like a punk. That's one thing I like about DeRozan. He just shuts up and plays.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The draft is simple: take the best player available. If it is a PF, so be it.

    Regarding Anthony Davis, despite his mediocre showing today, the thought of him and JV together is good on offense and ridiculous on defense. It appears his potential is off the charts with physical abilities, skills, drive, desire and length. As he catches up to his body.... wow. For all the match up nightmares Bargnani can create, Davis appears to have the same ability in time - maybe more.

    Do not get me wrong. I'm not looking to pack his bags. However there is no question in my mind Anthony is a better prospect for the Raptors - or any team. The reality is unless Toronto drafts 1 or 2, they likely won't have a shot anyways.

    The great thing about the Raptors is the flexibility they will have moving forward. If a PF is the best player available in the draft, they will certainly have opportunities to address other areas with trade chips and cap space. Players like Gay (trade) and Batum (free agency) could be available. A player like Bargnani or ED alone, with a future draft pick, and/or taking on contract deemed onerous for another team could fetch another lottery pick.

    Who knows what will happen.

    UNC versus Kentucky December 3rd will certainly add fuel to this debate, though!
    I really hate the idea of trading Ed Davis. Guys like that don't grow on trees. If they're ever going to win anything, and do it without a Superstar(no one to be seen right now) then they're going to need guys like him badly. He seems like the perfect guy for Dwayne Casey's system and I think he's going to be a Joakim Noah type player in terms of on court impact and production. The jury is out on if he's got a flare for leadership. I was a little concerned when Casey didn't mention Ed when he took the job. He gave props to all the other core guys but him and it seemed really strange because Ed Davis is probably the best fit out of anyone on the team for a Dwayne Casey defensive system.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I like Miller less after seeing that. I've seen clips of him and think he's certainly got talent, but his attitude and the whole "It's easy" thing was a HUGE turnoff. I don't mind the stare-down after the dunk or great play in certain circumstances (I've done it myself), but after a while you just start looking like a punk. That's one thing I like about DeRozan. He just shuts up and plays.
    I disagree. The Raptors have no swagger. They have a bunch of sheep with no one stepping up to lead them. DeRozan says he's going to do it this year but they need multiple strong people in the dressing room and on the court if they're ever going to help make the head coach's system take off. I have no problem with a highly confident player if he's earning it by producing and working hard on the court and in practice.

    Here's an old article on him from last January:
    Quincy Miller "This is the best thing that's happened to me"
    January 5, 2011
    It was never a case of Quincy Miller not taking the game of basketball seriously – he did. But like so many gifted youngsters with the world at their feet, standing on the cusp of greatness, he simply didn't know how good he had it. He didn't understand how quickly it could all be taken away. Few ever do.

    A native of Chicago, Miller may have been the poster child of his class for this character dynamic. Having burst onto the scene as a junior and continued his assault on the class rankings well into last summer, the 18-year-old made almost as many waves for his confident, bordering on brash nature, as he did for his exceptional play on the court. But then harsh reality reared its ugly head.

    For Miller – a consensus top-5 player in the class of 2011 who has drawn comparisons to Kevin Durant for his combination of size and skill – his moment of clarity came less than a month ago. On December 10th, playing in just his fifth game with his new school Westchester Country Day (NC), the 6-foot-9 small forward felt a pop in his left knee. Though player and team remained hopeful for the best, the final diagnosis was in stark contrast to the otherwise optimistic expectations: torn ACL.

    Not surprisingly, despite his oft described tough exterior, Miller became emotional upon learning the extent of his injury. No McDonald's All-American game. No Jordan Classic. No Nike Hoop Summit. No more high school basketball. Nothing but time and an arduous seven-month long rehabilitation process that has tested many athletes, far more experienced in the injustices of life than a teenager.

    It was then that Neeton Moore, Miller's AAU coach with D-One Sports, sat down with the broken star and painted a very black and white picture. Moore didn't pull any punches, he didn't cut corners and sugar coat things for the youngster. He spoke to Miller man to man and the response has been striking.

    “This is probably the best thing that's happened to me, even though it is kind of a negative,” Miller says in an explicit tone, almost saturated with perspective. “It's going to give me time to watch what other high school guys do, what I was doing, how I can change and get ready for college. It's going to enhance my work ethic to be even greater than it was before.”

    “I think he's developed a sense of humility so to speak about the talent he has,” adds Moore. “He knows not to take it for granted because it can be taken away so quickly.”
    “With him having to sit out and view things through a different lens, he sees the things he could have done on the court and he sees the mistakes that other guys make,” says Moore. “He's become almost more of a coach in many ways.”
    It was never a case of Quincy Miller not taking the game of basketball seriously – he did. But like so many gifted youngsters with the world at their feet, standing on the cusp of greatness, he simply didn't know how good he had it. He didn't understand how quickly it could all be taken away. Few ever do.
    “It's his level of maturity and his desire to prepare that has changed. It's all starting to make sense to him,” he says. “It's giving him a greater appreciation for [basketball] and making him take a more business minded approach to the game. He's not sitting around being down about things, he's looking at what he needs to do and he's doing it.”
    Source: Draftexpress.com

  10. #270
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I really hate the idea of trading Ed Davis. Guys like that don't grow on trees. If they're ever going to win anything, and do it without a Superstar(no one to be seen right now) then they're going to need guys like him badly. He seems like the perfect guy for Dwayne Casey's system and I think he's going to be a Joakim Noah type player in terms of on court impact and production. The jury is out on if he's got a flare for leadership. I was a little concerned when Casey didn't mention Ed when he took the job. He gave props to all the other core guys but him and it seemed really strange because Ed Davis is probably the best fit out of anyone on the team for a Dwayne Casey defensive system.
    I'm pretty sure Matt is not in a hurry to trade Ed Davis, and he even says so himself. But if it's a case of choosing between Anthony Davis and Ed Davis, you got to go with Anthony because he's got a much higher ceiling. Ed, I truly believe, is going to be a VERY good complimentary player and is the kind of guy who seems to usually end up winning a Championship. But he's a complimentary player. Anthony, from what I've seen, should become a true franchise player, something the Raptors have had exactly one of during their entire existence.

    I've been saying that I'd absolutely love if Anthony were able to play SF, if the Raptors draft him, so they can trot out a front line of Ed, Anthony and Valanciunas. If Anthony can't play SF, though, then I don't see how the Raptors can keep Ed, unfortunately.

    Now, if the Raptors DON'T draft Anthony, then there's no way in hell I would trade Ed away.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I disagree. The Raptors have no swagger. They have a bunch of sheep with no one stepping up to lead them. DeRozan says he's going to do it this year but they need multiple strong people in the dressing room and on the court if they're ever going to help make the head coach's system take off. I have no problem with a highly confident player if he's earning it by producing and working hard on the court and in practice.

    Here's an old article on him from last January:

    Source: Draftexpress.com
    The problem I have is that there's a difference between swagger and cockiness. Cockiness starts to grate on people. It shows immaturity. It reminds me of a Steve Francis or Brandon Jennings. Besides, the part that really bothered me was the whole "It's easy" thing. He even had it printed on his shoes? What the hell is up with that. I just don't like that at all.

    Maybe I'm wrong about him, and I really don't know THAT much about him (I read the article last season and was impressed with him after reading it), so we'll see. He does seem incredibly talented and if it weren't for the knee injury, I'm pretty sure he'd be talked about as a choice for number 1 right now.
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I really hate the idea of trading Ed Davis. Guys like that don't grow on trees. If they're ever going to win anything, and do it without a Superstar(no one to be seen right now) then they're going to need guys like him badly. He seems like the perfect guy for Dwayne Casey's system and I think he's going to be a Joakim Noah type player in terms of on court impact and production. The jury is out on if he's got a flare for leadership. I was a little concerned when Casey didn't mention Ed when he took the job. He gave props to all the other core guys but him and it seemed really strange because Ed Davis is probably the best fit out of anyone on the team for a Dwayne Casey defensive system.
    I think Anthony Davis will be a superstar. It is early and the odds do not favour the thought but he is a special and rare breed of player. If he reaches his potential, I think he is easily a top 10 player in the league.

    Hopefully I'm not making it sound like I want ED gone.... far from it. While ED is not a superstar, as someone has said through the comments, he is probably a borderline all-star. If there is no possibility to get a possible star at PF, you keep ED and you are happy about it.

  12. #272
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    I think Ed would be a great complimentary piece to a championship team as well.. but I think Ed has more potential then Amir. Even though I love Amir, I'd prefer Ed over Amir in the long term.

    If we do end up drafting Anthony Davis, and he can only play PF, then I say we trade Amir (and Bargs of course), and make Ed the first big off the bench.

    We then go after someone like Gay as our SF for the future.

    A big rotation of Val, Anthony, Ed and Alibi is not so bad - pretty scary defensively.

    I think Amir can fetch more than Ed in a trade as well.

  13. #273
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    Default What about the second round pick?

    Hopefully the season is played this year and the roster stays somewhat in tact as constructed. One could make the argument it is tanking but I prefer to look at it as developing and assessing the talent currently on the roster. The second round pick of course is based straight on record. If the Raptors had their pick last year they would have had pick #33 (sent to Detroit as part of Delfino trade). If freshmen/one and dones are still permitted in the draft, there will potentially be good players slipping in to the second round. Three players who I would keep my eye on would be:

    Doron Lamb
    John Jenkins
    Terrence Ross

    All three are shooting guards who can stroke it from deep - a need for Toronto.

    Obviously it is early in the year and they could definitely be first round picks or may not even declare in time. I guess my point is first round talent always slips to the 2nd round - especially early second round - and with the Raptors needing shooters, I'll be watching those three.

  14. #274
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You're trying to select a house based on the furniture you already have. That's not the best way to do it. However much I like many of the players the Raptors already have, they are all complimentary pieces (Valanciunas may or may not be, but we don't know at this point). The Raptors need to pick whoever has the best chance to be their franchise player and then adjust their roster to him.
    Actually, no I'm not. Using your analogy, I'm trying to buy more furniture based on the furniture I already own.
    Makes perfect sense if you ask me.

    Quote Tim W. wrote:
    And I'm not suggesting the only way the Raptors won't be a 22 win team is by drafting Davis. I'm suggesting that when you're one of the worst teams in the league, the last thing you should do worry about who's already on your team when you draft. In last year's draft, Cleveland picked Tristan Thompson over Valanciunas despite most feeling that Valanciunas was the better player because Thompson filled a more immediate need. If Valanciunas turns out to be better than Thompson, ten years from now, no one is going to remember that Thompson filled a more immediate need, but that Cleveland missed out on the better player. Hell, look at Ed Davis. The main reason Davis fell to 13 was because teams drafting ahead of the Raptors needed other positions more than PF. And now Davis is in the conversation for the top 5 players from his draft. If they had the chance to draft over, I'm guessing some of those teams would pick differently.
    First off, Cleveland did NOT draft Thompson because they needed a Power Forward...
    The Cavs surprised many when they picked Tristan Thompson in the NBA Draft this summer, but to them, Thompson was an absolute no-brainer. From the Plain Dealer: “Now 6-8 and 20 years old, Thompson spent a year at Texas as a defensive force, was named Big 12 Freshman of the Year, and got enough attention that Cavaliers GM Chris Grant claims he’s been tracking the long power forward since he was in high school. The fact that he was the fourth pick wouldn’t have been a surprise if you saw what the Cavaliers’ scouting team did: The team’s scouts salivated over Thompson’s 7-2 wingspan, his 38.5-inch vertical leap and his 2.4 blocks per game. (Though not so much over his 49 percent free-throw shooting.) ‘We just love what he’s about and how he would fit into our organization,’ Grant said when introducing Thompson and No. 1 pick Kyrie Irving. ‘This was a very easy pick,’ Grant said. It was such an easy pick that Grant promptly made room on the squad for Thompson to grow and develop when he traded J.J. Hickson to Sacramento on Thursday. The glut of power forwards is now somewhat smaller, and Thompson’s path to a starting position is more direct.” Source

    Secondly, once again, in my opinion, not only is Harrison Barnes a can't-miss prospect, guaranteed to upgrade your club, he is also ready to contribute and is NBA ready, today. I'm not sure Anthony Davis is.

    Quote Tim W. wrote:
    As for WHERE the Raptors pick, obviously no one knows. I'm just saying who I like just as you've been hyping Barnes. And I actually think the Raptors have a pretty good chance at picking first. They won 22 games last year and probably will trot out a similar roster this time. There's no reason to think the results will be much different.
    I disagree with this. I think allowing this core group of players to grow together, would show incremental success' solely based on growth and development.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Actually, no I'm not. Using your analogy, I'm trying to buy more furniture based on the furniture I already own.
    Makes perfect sense if you ask me.



    First off, Cleveland did NOT draft Thompson because they needed a Power Forward...
    [/B]
    Secondly, once again, in my opinion, not only is Harrison Barnes a can't-miss prospect, guaranteed to upgrade your club, he is also ready to contribute and is NBA ready, today. I'm not sure Anthony Davis is.



    I disagree with this. I think allowing this core group of players to grow together, would show incremental success' solely based on growth and development.
    Clearly we're dealing with opinions here so there is no right or wrong. With that said, I would not say Barnes is a can't miss prospect in terms of a future all-star or superstar (his first college year is a good example why) but I do most definitely agree he is NBA ready in terms of physical development and, if he performs to ability, in terms of talent.

    Personally, I'm not too concerned about 1-2 years down the line. Where will Barnes be in 4 years and where will Anthony Davis be in 4 years? If I am basing my decision on this, at this point in time, I go with Anthony Davis - hands down.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I think Ed would be a great complimentary piece to a championship team as well.. but I think Ed has more potential then Amir. Even though I love Amir, I'd prefer Ed over Amir in the long term.

    If we do end up drafting Anthony Davis, and he can only play PF, then I say we trade Amir (and Bargs of course), and make Ed the first big off the bench.

    We then go after someone like Gay as our SF for the future.

    A big rotation of Val, Anthony, Ed and Alibi is not so bad - pretty scary defensively.

    I think Amir can fetch more than Ed in a trade as well.
    I don't think there's anyone who doesn't think Ed has more potential than Amir, but the reasoning behind trading Ed instead of Amir is that Amir would be much more amenable to coming off the bench than Ed. He's also signed for longer than Ed. I think it would be incredibly difficult to retain Ed if he were relegated to a bench role.

    As for their trade value, I'm not sure how Amir has more. Ed is younger and has more potential. You said it yourself.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I like Miller less after seeing that. I've seen clips of him and think he's certainly got talent, but his attitude and the whole "It's easy" thing was a HUGE turnoff. I don't mind the stare-down after the dunk or great play in certain circumstances (I've done it myself), but after a while you just start looking like a punk. That's one thing I like about DeRozan. He just shuts up and plays.
    i like his attitude he's got the confidence we need. Every team needs at least one of these kind of guys. I wouldn't mind at all if we drafted him

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Actually, no I'm not. Using your analogy, I'm trying to buy more furniture based on the furniture I already own.
    Makes perfect sense if you ask me.
    That depends on what you think you're drafting. If you think you're drafting another complimentary piece, then you're right. I don't see Anthony as another complimentary piece. I see him as a franchise player. In the NBA, you tend to go only as far as your franchise player can take you, hence the house analogy. Your franchise player is the house and the other players are the furniture. They're very important, but it's the house that you need to build around and that's going to determine your worth.

    When Milwaukee had the #1 pick in 2005, they picked Andrew Bogut, who was a very good player, over Chris Paul because they already had TJ Ford and Mo Williams (as well as the fact that Bogut was a center). To me, Paul was, hands down, the best player in that draft and should have gone first. I'm betting, even if Bogut hadn't had injuries, Milwaukee would have rather have drafted Paul, who's a franchise player, instead of Bogut, who's not.

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    uFirst off, Cleveland did NOT draft Thompson because they needed a Power Forward...
    [/B]
    Secondly, once again, in my opinion, not only is Harrison Barnes a can't-miss prospect, guaranteed to upgrade your club, he is also ready to contribute and is NBA ready, today. I'm not sure Anthony Davis is.
    I think a lot of Barnes as well. Never said I didn't. But your argument has been that the Raptors should select Barnes because he fits in better with the current roster. If he's the best player, then you'll get no argument from me. If its a case of him simply fitting in better, then you will.

    Take a look at just about every great player, who's stayed with one team over a long period, and see how the cast around him almost always changes over the course of his career. Kobe won Championships with two different casts. So did Tim Duncan. Pipped was about the only holdover from before and after Jordan's first retirement. And those are only the ones that won Championships.

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I disagree with this. I think allowing this core group of players to grow together, would show incremental success' solely based on growth and development.
    Incremental, yes. Of course you also have to take into consideration that Reggie probably isn't back and Barbosa will probably be traded, so any incremental improvements might very well be offset by the loss of those two, who do impact the win/loss column. The team, while young and with some potential, is still not very talented.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    That depends on what you think you're drafting. If you think you're drafting another complimentary piece, then you're right. I don't see Anthony as another complimentary piece. I see him as a franchise player. In the NBA, you tend to go only as far as your franchise player can take you, hence the house analogy. Your franchise player is the house and the other players are the furniture. They're very important, but it's the house that you need to build around and that's going to determine your worth.

    When Milwaukee had the #1 pick in 2005, they picked Andrew Bogut, who was a very good player, over Chris Paul because they already had TJ Ford and Mo Williams (as well as the fact that Bogut was a center). To me, Paul was, hands down, the best player in that draft and should have gone first. I'm betting, even if Bogut hadn't had injuries, Milwaukee would have rather have drafted Paul, who's a franchise player, instead of Bogut, who's not.
    Oh ... well you didn't really specify that ONLY Davis could be the house in this instance.
    Like I said many times, I think Barnes has potential to be a Franchise guy.
    As I've said in past, you disagree with how good I think he will be. That's fine.

    I disagree with how dominant you think Davis will be. At this point in time.

    Quote Tim W. wrote:
    I think a lot of Barnes as well. Never said I didn't. But your argument has been that the Raptors should select Barnes because he fits in better with the current roster. If he's the best player, then you'll get no argument from me. If its a case of him simply fitting in better, then you will.
    My argument has never been solely based off the fact that he is a Natural Small Forward.
    It's a contributing factor, of course; but I've been adamant on the fact that I believe Harrison Barnes is an Elite level Talent that will contribute to the club from Day 1 and make The Toronto Raptors better.

    Regardless, we have alot of time to let this debate unfold.

    Davis needs alot more games under his belt to get me as convinced as you, about his future domination of the NBA.

    Quote Tim W. wrote:
    Incremental, yes. Of course you also have to take into consideration that Reggie probably isn't back and Barbosa will probably be traded, so any incremental improvements might very well be offset by the loss of those two, who do impact the win/loss column. The team, while young and with some potential, is still not very talented.
    And I believe Harrison Barnes would be a significant upgrade to that Core group of talent.
    Immediately coming in and potentially being our best player in the Starting Line-up.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Oh ... well you didn't really specify that ONLY Davis could be the house in this instance.
    Like I said many times, I think Barnes has potential to be a Franchise guy.
    As I've said in past, you disagree with how good I think he will be. That's fine.

    I disagree with how dominant you think Davis will be. At this point in time.
    At this point, there could be a few guys that might end up being franchise players. I simply don't know. And keep in mind that if Davis were not in the picture, Barnes would probably be my first choice.

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    My argument has never been solely based off the fact that he is a Natural Small Forward.
    It's a contributing factor, of course; but I've been adamant on the fact that I believe Harrison Barnes is an Elite level Talent that will contribute to the club from Day 1 and make The Toronto Raptors better.

    Regardless, we have alot of time to let this debate unfold.

    Davis needs alot more games under his belt to get me as convinced as you, about his future domination of the NBA.
    It's never been based solely on his position, but in just about every discussion you bring up the fact that he fits in better positionally, so it seems to be of some importance to you. It's of no interest to me what position any of these guys play. None.

    As for Davis, I like him almost as much as I liked Lebron when I saw him in high school. Besides, if you were sold on Barns before he hit the NCAA, why would Davis need more games under his belt?

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    And I believe Harrison Barnes would be a significant upgrade to that Core group of talent.
    Immediately coming in and potentially being our best player in the Starting Line-up.
    I also believe Barnes would be a significant upgrade, but if the object is to get the highest pick in the draft that he will be in, I don't think it's actually possible to play him while he's still in college. The whole issue with this part of the discussion is that I took issue with you saying the Raptors probably won't even be able to get the top pick because they'll be improved.
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