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Thread: 2012 Draft Thursday, June 28th: Raptors select Terence Ross

  1. #281
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    Apparently there is a belief that if the NBA still hasn't reached an agreement by the draft, that there will be no basis to prevent high school players from entering (can't find link, but read it on Twitter) the 2012 Draft. If they do reach an agreement, then the age limit might be raised to 20. So is it better for the Raptors if they dont reach an agreement, but they draft according to recent success, or is it better if they play a season, the Raptors end up near the bottom, but the age limit gets raised? A lower age limit will deepen the field, meaning that you won't need to draft as high to get a potentially great player, which the Raptors might need if they can't get a top 5 pick.

    The worst case scenario, for the Raptors, is if they cancel the season, but reach an agreement before the draft and raise the age limit. So to me, either there is a season or the lockout gets dragged on until at least the summer.
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote:
    It's of no interest to me what position any of these guys play. None.
    Thats fine.
    I think Ed Davis is a VERY special Player on his own, and thus am trying to work in a situation and scenario where we acquire a VERY special player in the draft, without having to give up another VERY special player.

    Quote Tim W. wrote:
    Besides, if you were sold on Barns before he hit the NCAA, why would Davis need more games under his belt?
    Wanting a player, and being sold on a player are two totally different things.
    I wanted Barnes when he was in Highschool because he was exciting and heady.

    I never knew he'd be ACC Freshman of the Year. Or break Freshman Records. That sold me on him.
    Watching the way he played in big College Games. That sold me.

    Quote Time W. wrote:
    The whole issue with this part of the discussion is that I took issue with you saying the Raptors probably won't even be able to get the top pick because they'll be improved.
    Never said this. Ever. I don't think.
    Never implied it, either. I don't think.
    I simply said the odds are not in the Raptors favour of receiving the #1 Pick.
    Be it if they do a re-draft, or a draft based on previous records.
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  3. #283
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Thats fine.
    I think Ed Davis is a VERY special Player on his own, and thus am trying to work in a situation and scenario where we acquire a VERY special player in the draft, without having to give up another VERY special player.
    Have I ever said anything but good things about Ed? Obviously I'd do what I can to keep him because, at this point, I see him as a very important piece to the future of the team. But however much I Ike him, he's simply not good enough to stop me from drafting a potential franchise player if he happens to play the same position as Ed.

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Wanting a player, and being sold on a player are two totally different things.
    I wanted Barnes when he was in Highschool because he was exciting and heady.

    I never knew he'd be ACC Freshman of the Year. Or break Freshman Records. That sold me on him.
    Watching the way he played in big College Games. That sold me.
    He also struggled at NC, especially during the first half of the season, and shot poorly over the entire season. Barnes played well, but he didn't exactly have a freshman season for the ages. And while his tournament play was impressive, it wasn't amazing by any stretch of imagination. He still shot pretty poorly and turned the ball over too much. As I said, I like him, but really hoped he would have been more impressive in college considering the hype when he was in high school.

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Never said this. Ever. I don't think.
    Never implied it, either. I don't think.
    I simply said the odds are not in the Raptors favour of receiving the #1 Pick.
    Be it if they do a re-draft, or a draft based on previous records.
    I was going on this quote...

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    There is another 5 months to determine who exactly is the best player in the pack; and then, we have to figure out where exactly we will end up picking. Which, the odds are not #1.
    Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
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  4. #284
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't think there's anyone who doesn't think Ed has more potential than Amir, but the reasoning behind trading Ed instead of Amir is that Amir would be much more amenable to coming off the bench than Ed. He's also signed for longer than Ed. I think it would be incredibly difficult to retain Ed if he were relegated to a bench role.

    As for their trade value, I'm not sure how Amir has more. Ed is younger and has more potential. You said it yourself.
    Why would Ed be opposed to coming off the bench if he was still given about 18-20 minutes a game? I see Ed as more of a very good role player than a superstar talent. Role players (even really good ones) should consider coming off the bench to help you win. If Ed is not happy doing that, even after his rookie deal expires (and he was drafted 13th overall - not in the top 5), then maybe he's not worth keeping after all. I also think that Ed's next deal would be cheaper than Amir's is now - especially with a new CBA.

    As for Amir having more trade value then Ed... I would say that Amir has proven himself to be a very good player. We all love him - he was arguably the best Raptor last season. I think he has a tone of trade value, and more so than Ed. Even though Ed has lots of potential, he's still green in a lot of areas. Teams that are looking at getting into the playoffs (Indiana, Philly, Houston, Milwaukee, etc) may want someone like Amir over Ed since he can help push them in. Ed would be more favourable to teams that are rebuilding. But Amir, in my opinion, would be more favourable to everyone else.

    I love both Amir and Ed.. however if we end up drafting a big because they are the best player available in the draft, then I'd rather keep Ed than Amir simply because Ed has more potential and we are still a rebuilding team, and because I see a lot of Amir in JV. Keeping Amir while we have JV seems to be a bit redundant to me in my opinion. It's doable, but it would be difficult to play them both at the same time.

    This of course also assumes that Bargnani is the first to go before Amir or Ed.
    Last edited by planetmars; Sun Nov 20th, 2011 at 11:44 PM. Reason: typos

  5. #285
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Why would Ed be opposed to coming off the bench if he was still given about 18-20 minutes a game? I see Ed as more of a very good role player than a superstar talent. Role players (even really good ones) should consider coming off the bench to help you win. If Ed is not happy doing that, even after his rookie deal expires (and he was drafted 13th overall - not in the top 5), then maybe he's not worth keeping after all. I also think that Ed's next deal would be cheaper than Amir's is now - especially with a new CBA.

    As for Amir having more trade value then Ed... I would say that Amir has proven himself to be a very good player. We all love him - he was arguably the best Raptor last season. I think he has a tone of trade value, and more so than Ed. Even though Ed has lots of potential, he's still green in a lot of areas. Teams that are looking at getting into the playoffs (Indiana, Philly, Houston, Milwaukee, etc) may want someone like Amir over Ed since he can help push them in. Ed would be more favourable to teams that are rebuilding. But Amir, in my opinion, would be more favourable to everyone else.

    I love both Amir and Ed.. however if we end up drafting a big because they are the best player available in the draft, then I'd rather keep Ed than Amir simply because Ed has more potential and we are still a rebuilding team, and because I see a lot of Amir in JV. Keeping Amir while we have JV seems to be a bit redundant to me in my opinion. It's doable, but it would be difficult to play them both at the same time.

    This of course also assumes that Bargnani is the first to go before Amir or Ed.
    You think Ed Davis would be fine coming off the bench playing only 20 mpg? I sure don't. This is a lottery pick who has the potential to be an All Star, so I can't see him being fine with that role. And I don't blame him a bit. I think he's too talented to be playing only 20 mpg off the bench.

    Hey, if it were possible, I'd most definitely keep Ed, but I don't see him staying in that role.

    As for not being able to play Valanciunas and Amir together, I really don't see the problem. It's not as if both have to play in the same spot. There's plenty of room on the floor for them at the same time, especially since both appear to be able to hit the 15 footer. I think playing them both together would give the other team headaches with their constant movement and ability to find the open lane.

    And I think most of us assume/hope Bargnani goes before Ed or Amir.
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  6. #286
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    Default Jabari Brown

    Oregon freshman guard Jabari Brown has left the Ducks program.

    Radio announcer Jerry Allen broke the news on-air before today's game against Southeast Missouri State. UO officials released a statement confirming it at halftime.

    Coach Dana Altman addressed the matter after today's game, which Oregon won 86-61.

    "I will say it up front, I don't want him to leave," Altman said. "The door is still open."

    Brown, a five-star recruit from Oakland, was the biggest commitment of Altman's tenure in Eugene. Brown's name was deleted from the team's online roster this morning before being restored in what officials said was a mistake.

    Through two games, he had averaged 6 points and 2 rebounds while committing a team-high 11 turnovers.

    Stay with OregonLive.com for more.
    Source: www.oregonlive.com

    Not that it matters too much but still interesting.

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    Default Jared Cunningham

    Perhaps the biggest reason for Oregon State’s early season success has been the play of star Jared Cunningham. A 6’4″ shooting guard, Cunningham is one of the best defenders in the country. He routinely guards the best opposing perimeter player and is notorious in the Pac-12 for his toughness and effort level. Cunningham’s collar is as blue as it gets. He has no problem mixing it up in the paint or diving on the floor for a loose ball.

    But he’s never had that issue, either. Where his game has really developed on the offensive end of the floor, where Cunningham is getting awfully close to having to be labeled a superstar. In Oregon State’s 100-95 overtime win against Texas in the Legends Classic semifinals, Cunningham finished with 37 points and nine rebounds. This performance came just one game after Cunningham went for 35 points against Hofstra. On the season, he’s now averaging 26.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg and 2.3 spg.

    “He does everything for us,” Robinson said. “He guards the best guy. He scores points. He makes assists. He makes his foul shots. The magnitude of what he had to do today, on this stage and in this tournament against this team, is big time. And it’s getting to be a regular thing with Jared.”

    The difference is that Cunningham is beginning to show the signs of being a finisher. Against Texas, he made every big play down the stretch. He had seven points and an assist — and the most important play of the game, stripping J’Covan Brown after he had corralled a long offensive rebound with 30 seconds left and Texas leading 80-78 — in the last three minutes of regulation and added eight more points in overtime.

    “I feel like I can be that decision maker in the end,” Cunningham said. “That comes with confidence, and that comes with a lot of pressure on your shoulders, but I feel like I can take it on.”

    Cunningham is a freak athlete. When he wants to get to the rim, no one is stopping him. He shot 23 free throws on Friday night and made 20 of them. What Cunningham is still learning to do is how to be a basketball player. Everyone in the country has seen the dunk that he had against Arizona last season, but simply being able to make a play like that isn’t going to make Cunningham a star anywhere other than Sportscenter’s top ten.

    What he needs to do is become a better shot creator and a better shot maker. He needs to not only be able to put the ball on the floor and draw a foul, he has to turn that into an and-one instead of just two shots. He needs to shoot better than 4-15 from beyond the arc. He needs to improve his handle and avoid turnovers. That takes time, and while Cunningham has absolutely improved in those areas, he still has so much room to grow.

    And he just scored 72 points in back-to-back games. Think about that.

    “Jared has evolved as a player since I saw him when he was a sophomore (in high school) and I was at Brown and trying to recruit him before he blew up,” Robinson said. “He has just come a long way. The reason is because he is extremely receptive to coaching. He wants to get better and what you saw out there was a culmination of his hard work.”
    Source: NBC Sports

    Here's a guy to keep on the radar. He probably won't be in line for the Raptors current pick but they could add another and if he comes out he would certainly fit what the Raptors want to do.

  8. #288
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    I agree Barnes is an excellent prospect and perhaps the best fit for the Raptors as their roster stands in limbo at the moment. I feel Jeremy Lamb is the best player in the NCAA right now and also that his game will translate to a great NBA career (not that Barnes won't). With all the hype on Barnes I was surprised to see Lamb is ahead of Barnes on some draft boards, which of course doesn't mean a thing. I know that Derozen and Lamb play the same position, but if Barnes and Davis are off the board in the next draft I would like to see Lamb in a Raptors uniform. He's a great defender right now with a solid offensive game.

  9. #289
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    Lamb strikes me as a guy who is going to need two or three years to develop an NBA body and until then is going to be limited to some degree.

  10. #290
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    I agree Barnes is an excellent prospect and perhaps the best fit for the Raptors as their roster stands in limbo at the moment. I feel Jeremy Lamb is the best player in the NCAA right now and also that his game will translate to a great NBA career (not that Barnes won't). With all the hype on Barnes I was surprised to see Lamb is ahead of Barnes on some draft boards, which of course doesn't mean a thing. I know that Derozen and Lamb play the same position, but if Barnes and Davis are off the board in the next draft I would like to see Lamb in a Raptors uniform. He's a great defender right now with a solid offensive game.
    I don't know if he's my third choice, but he's certainly up there. With Kemba Walker gone, he's really stepped up his game. That doesn't make Walker look all that good, though. As a PG, it was his responsibility to make Lamb look good and he looks better without him.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Lamb strikes me as a guy who is going to need two or three years to develop an NBA body and until then is going to be limited to some degree.
    I remember people saying the same thing about Reggie Miller and Richard Hamilton.
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  11. #291
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know if he's my third choice, but he's certainly up there. With Kemba Walker gone, he's really stepped up his game. That doesn't make Walker look all that good, though. As a PG, it was his responsibility to make Lamb look good and he looks better without him.
    Kemba got Jeremy Lamb involved about as much as possible.
    Lamb just wasn't as good as he is now. Pretty simple.

    As a Freshman, Lamb was their #2 guy. It makes sense that as the new #1 at UConn, he's putting up better numbers.
    Not sure how that reflects poorly on Walker.

    As a Freshman, Jeremy Lamb had about 10% of the confidence he plays with now.
    He's a totally different player watching him this year, after the FIBA Tournament this summer.
    (UConn was my team last year. Watched a good number of the games.)

    If Calhoun felt Lamb could have contributed more as a Freshman, I'm sure he would have made the adjustment.
    (He had a GREAT tournament, playing alongside Kemba.)
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Nov 21st, 2011 at 01:37 PM.
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  12. #292
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Lamb spent the summer as the go to guy for the USA under 19 team. That certainly helped him prepare for this season as it is his role at UCONN now.

    I am shocked by Drummond thus far. It looks like he could be taking over Barnes title as "Early Season Let Down". I'm sure he'll put it together though - as Barnes did towards the end of last year.

  13. #293
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I remember people saying the same thing about Reggie Miller and Richard Hamilton.
    Right and I remember them saying it about Anthony Randolph, Corey Brewer, Adam Morrison, Shaun Livingston, Josh Childress and DeMarr Johnson. So, yeah...

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Kemba got Jeremy Lamb involved about as much as possible.
    Lamb just wasn't as good as he is now. Pretty simple.
    Not to mention Lamb didn't really catch on until the end of the season last year. Freshman year is a big step/high learning curve for a lot of wings. Just ask DeRozan.

  14. #294
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Right and I remember them saying it about Anthony Randolph, Corey Brewer, Adam Morrison, Shaun Livingston, Josh Childress and DeMarr Johnson. So, yeah...
    All those players failed or struggled for very different reasons. Brewer couldn't shoot to save his life, which was pretty much expected since he didn't have a shot in college. Childress was a wing who wasn't a great shooter or a great ball handler. Johnson was simply very raw when he came out of Cincinnati and never really developed. Adam Morrison was simply not tall enough or athletic enough to dominate like he did in college and didn't particularly have skills that allowed him to become a role player. Shaun Livingston completely blew out his knee, which was not a product of him being too skinny. And Anthony Randolph plays a completely different position and one that relies more on strength. Besides, I don't think his physique is anywhere near his biggest problem.

    So none of those players failed or struggled due to their lack of strength/bulk.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Not to mention Lamb didn't really catch on until the end of the season last year. Freshman year is a big step/high learning curve for a lot of wings. Just ask DeRozan.
    So you'r worried that he won't make an immediate impact? Personally, I don't care. I'm looking at how a player is in 3-5 years. Not immediately. Damon Stoudamire was the player from his draft that made the most immediate impact, winning Rookie of the Year. Yet he never made an All-Star team, unlike Antonio McDyess, Jerry Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett and Michael Finley, who were all drafted in the same year.
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  15. #295
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    So you'r worried that he won't make an immediate impact? Personally, I don't care. I'm looking at how a player is in 3-5 years. Not immediately. Damon Stoudamire was the player from his draft that made the most immediate impact, winning Rookie of the Year. Yet he never made an All-Star team, unlike Antonio McDyess, Jerry Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett and Michael Finley, who were all drafted in the same year.
    No, I'm not worried. You didn't ask me that. You just elected to assume it. What I did was comment on a likely scenario: a skinny kid being strong armed while he develops into a man(see Chris Bosh as well). I didn't say I don't support the selection of this player. You went on to toss names so I tossed names. It looked like you wanted to play volleyball.

  16. #296
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, I'm not worried. You didn't ask me that. You just elected to assume it. What I did was comment on a likely scenario: a skinny kid being strong armed while he develops into a man(see Chris Bosh as well). I didn't say I don't support the selection of this player. You went on to toss names so I tossed names. It looked like you wanted to play volleyball.
    I asked a question. That's not assuming. You assumed that I assumed.
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  17. #297
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Haha fair enough. I don't think it's fair to be tossing out Reggie comparisons by the way.

  18. #298
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Kabongo had a rough game in a loss to NC State:

    1pt, 0/2FG, 1/2FT, 5ast, 2reb, 1stl, 2to

    Read from bottom up:

    DraftExpress Myck Kabongo will rewatch this tape & be very disappointed w/the lack of aggressiveness he showed w/Brown out. Looked incredibly passive.


    DraftExpress 23-2 run by NC State since Brown fouled out. Were down 18 at one point, now up 8. Texas' freshmen look like they just want this to be over.


    DraftExpress Freshman Myck Kabongo struggling mightily to do anything productive in half-court. NC State going WAY under every screen. Very tentative.


    DraftExpress J'Covan Brown fouled out after picking up a very dumb tech for telling the ref his previous foul was "BS." Texas up just 9 now w/8 min to go


    DraftExpress One guy who definitely needs to enter the DX database is Texas freshman Jonathan Holmes. 6-8 athletic PF w/a great body. Can make an open 3.


    DraftExpress J'Covan Brown continues to do it all for Texas. Scoring, and distributing in transition or on drive and dish. NC State down 65-47 now.
    Last edited by Matt52; Mon Nov 21st, 2011 at 08:51 PM.

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    Apparently Matt and I aren't the only ones who feel Davis is looking like the best prospect right now...
    Anthony Davis continues to be atop Chad Ford's rankings for the 2012 NBA Draft.

    Many NBA scouts feel there is a sizable gab between Davis and the whoever ends up being rated as the No. 2 player.

    "Davis is the only person in this draft who I'm sure can change a franchise," one scout said. "I thought Andre Drummond may have also been ... but Davis is the only sure thing to me. He has such a unique game. He'll be a great pro."

    Ford has Harrison Barnes ranked No. 2, followed by Drummond, Bradley Beal and Jared Sullinger.

    Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...#ixzz1eVU7e0E9
    It's from an ESPN Insider article.

    Also, Lamb is getting some love...
    Jeremy Lamb continues to emerge as one of the best prospects in the country.

    Chad Ford has moved the Connecticut shooting guard to No. 10 on his Big Board.

    One GM believes Lamb is the second best prospect of the 2012 NBA Draft class behind Anthony Davis.

    "I think if you matchup Lamb with Harrison Barnes head-to-head, I think Lamb comes out ahead," said the GM. "He's a better athlete and he's just more aggressive."

    Lamb’s usage has jumped from 23.25% as a freshman to 31.25% as a sophomore, but his TS% has also increased from 57.0% to 61.3%.

    Barnes’ usage has increased slightly, going from 26.70% to 28.43%. His TS% has increased from 52.5% to 56.8% during the first three games of the 11-12 season.

    Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...#ixzz1eVUc1B3O
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  20. #300
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    Davis and Lamb are both noodles right now. Realistically speaking, how much weight could they possibly gain over the course of their first 3-5 years in the league?

    The only player in recent memory that was a legitimate force down low, yet still maintained a pencil-thin frame, was Garnett.

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