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Thread: Drafting non-americans as a strategy for long term success

  1. #1
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    Default Drafting non-americans as a strategy for long term success

    What do McGrady, Carter, Bosh, DeRozen and Ed Davis have in common?

    They were all loans from American teams. They were at all points unlikely to resign with the Raptors. It is speculative for DeRozen and Ed Davis and would have been the same for Brandon Knight and Kemba Walker.

    We spend 2 years giving them playing time while they are bad and we get them for 4 years where they play at an acceptable level. If they become great, we lose them.

    By drafting or trading for players like Jonas Valanciunas, Tristan Thompson and Cory Joseph we can increase our chances of keeping them if they turn out to be great. Thus it is Valanciunas for the next 10-15(less, team choice, if he sucks) vs Knight for the next 6 years if he is good.

    That is also not taking into account that Valanciunas is likely the best person to draft at the 5. Similar arguments could be applied to Biyombo, but he seemed really overblown given age concerns and I would be worried about his health long-term.

    Also arguments about the team not getting immediately better are irrelevant. John Wall and Blake Griffin both led their teams to losing records.


    I usually just read these forums but I believe many people are very wrong, prompting me to post.
    Last edited by Vandel; Fri Jun 24th, 2011 at 03:18 PM.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Were? Did DeRozan and Davis quit the team or something?

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    If DeRozen becomes great he's gone. We only get to keep these guys if they are in the bad to OK range.

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    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
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    Ugh ... I see this getting ugly real fast. I smell a "lock" coming shortly. This fine line between North American players and international ones has to stop as some point.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    For most elite players it always comes down to winning and losing. Bosh left because he had a greater chance of winning in Miami then he did in Toronto. Damon left for a similar reason. Carter did not leave, he was traded, but he 'quit' for similar reasons. The problem with Carter is that he just gave up. Look at how washed up he's become now. So it was a blessing that he gave up on Toronto. It's just too bad we got crap for him when he was traded.


    The point is that it doesn't matter that the player is European, North American, Chinese, or African. It comes down to whether or not the team has a chance to win.

    Carmelo left Denver. Amare left Phoenix. Lebron left Cleveland. Boozer left Utah. Howard will probably leave Orlando. Last time I checked a map, Denver, Phoenix, Cleveland, Utah and Orlando were all in the United States of America.

    If the Raptors start producing a winning team, its players will not want to leave. San Antonio is a small market team but it keeps its players because it is a winning team. Demar/Davis will stay if we start winning.

    I think that the Raptors have a better chance of producing a consistent winning team in the future with Jonas then with anyone else that was available for the Raptors to choose from whether it was Walker or Knight.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    For most elite players it always comes down to winning and losing. Bosh left because he had a greater chance of winning in Miami then he did in Toronto. Damon left for a similar reason. Carter did not leave, he was traded, but he 'quit' for similar reasons. The problem with Carter is that he just gave up. Look at how washed up he's become now. So it was a blessing that he gave up on Toronto. It's just too bad we got crap for him when he was traded.


    The point is that it doesn't matter that the player is European, North American, Chinese, or African. It comes down to whether or not the team has a chance to win.

    Carmelo left Denver. Amare left Phoenix. Lebron left Cleveland. Boozer left Utah. Howard will probably leave Orlando. Last time I checked a map, Denver, Phoenix, Cleveland, Utah and Orlando were all in the United States of America.

    If the Raptors start producing a winning team, its players will not want to leave. San Antonio is a small market team but it keeps its players because it is a winning team. Demar/Davis will stay if we start winning.

    I think that the Raptors have a better chance of producing a consistent winning team in the future with Jonas then with anyone else that was available for the Raptors to choose from whether it was Walker or Knight.
    What he said.

    It's not like Toronto is worse than all the American cities. Anyone with half a brain would realize how great Toronto is.

    Look at the Knicks. Best city in America, especially when you're young, but how long did they have trouble with acquiring elite talent? I wouldn't even call Carmelo elite.

    If you win, they will stay. Unless they're LBJ.

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    You are right. If the team wins they will stay. I should not have been so affirmative. I think we would need to be top contenders rather than mid level contenders for them to stay, but this is just speculation based on the actions of other players in the league and pass superstars playing in Toronto.

    I was just saying it would be easier to build a base, players with backgrounds like Valanciunas or Thristan Thomson seem more likely to stay if we are not top contenders. They did not grow up watching the same media or cheering for the same teams. It is not racist or anti-anything it is only base on previous examples of who stays and who leaves. I do not hate any players I am just presenting a strategy to mitigate similar events from happening again.

    Also, unless you draft a super elite player it seems like a team may run out of time if these players only have 6 year expiry dates.

    I don't hate americans or hate non-americans. I was only basing my opinion on pass situations and how players interact with the raptors and other similar teams, but maybe past situations have no bearing on future situations. If you do not interpret the data in the same way I do it is not a big deal.
    Last edited by Vandel; Fri Jun 24th, 2011 at 04:10 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Free agents dont leave us cause we are canadian... they leave us cause we suck.

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    Quote Doc Naismith wrote: View Post
    Ugh ... I see this getting ugly real fast. I smell a "lock" coming shortly. This fine line between North American players and international ones has to stop as some point.
    wow, what we need in the world and in the sports world is PEACE (P)eople (E)verywhere (A)re (C)reated (E)qually. Come on people, let's live by this word. Enough of the Hate because of where people are from. Man this is sick.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie dzoni71's Avatar
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    I understand your logic, but chances are all this will come to an end with the new CBA. Look at it this way for every Chicago, NY and LA there are 5-7 small market teams and their no.1 priority in the new CBA is lowering player salary and making it hard for players to leave via FA. I suspect "The Decision" will not have a sequel anytime soon...

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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    wow, what we need in the world and in the sports world is PEACE (P)eople (E)verywhere (A)re (C)reated (E)qually. Come on people, let's live by this word. Enough of the Hate because of where people are from. Man this is sick.
    I do not hate anyone. But players born in LA have incentive to play in LA just as players born in Toronto have incentive to play in Toronto. People are different and being blind to this is not a good strategy. No person is by default better or worse than any other in character and this was not what I was suggesting.
    Last edited by Vandel; Fri Jun 24th, 2011 at 04:18 PM.

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    Do people really need to be reminded about Turkoglu? The guy chose Toronto over Portland supposedly because of our international flavour and because he was European, and it ended up being one of the most disasterous one-year stints in Toronto history. And on the other side, Mo Peterson and Alvin Williams are just two of many American players who had long careers in Toronto, and would have probably liked to have stayed longer, if they had the chance. Point is, character is character, regardless of where it comes from. Ed Davis and Demar DeRozan both seem to have no character problems. If we treat these guys fairly and build a winner around them, they're not going anywhere.

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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    wow, what we need in the world and in the sports world is PEACE (P)eople (E)verywhere (A)re (C)reated (E)qually. Come on people, let's live by this word. Enough of the Hate because of where people are from. Man this is sick.
    We need more Metta World Peace. That has to be best selling jersey next year.

    But seriously, u create a winning environment players will stay. DD loves TO.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    Man... did the Blue Jays have trouble attracting talent when they were winning. Make TO competitive. I must say this is ugly. Metta World Peace may be on to something... or then again he may be off of something he should be on.
    Last edited by meductic; Fri Jun 24th, 2011 at 05:01 PM.

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    Remember, Bosh and Carter re-signed.

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    We need more Metta World Peace. That has to be best selling jersey next year.
    i haven't bought a jersey since Shawn Kemp... but i'm totally going to get a Metta World Peace jersey.

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    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    I ain't buyin' no damn Lakers jersey.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

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    Why did LeBron leave Cleveland...or Shaq Orlando....

    Afraid the argument is fallacious. If money/ancillary earning capacity were the sole factor and the player (even a Euro) was disposed to continuing in a TO there are external powerful forces many times like agents or a Nike that prod the player to move. The bottom line is to have a good and winning organization (eg. Spurs) and players will come. However what I would like to see in the new cba is an adjustment which would prevent what happened in Miami this year. This upsets the competitive balance in the league and creates super teams in what would be a tiered league. The Premier L. in soccer in England is a prime example with the league title cycled within 2-3 teams among the top 6-7 ...in the 20 team league.

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    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Why did LeBron leave Cleveland...or Shaq Orlando....

    Afraid the argument is fallacious. If money/ancillary earning capacity were the sole factor and the player (even a Euro) was disposed to continuing in a TO there are external powerful forces many times like agents or a Nike that prod the player to move. The bottom line is to have a good and winning organization (eg. Spurs) and players will come. However what I would like to see in the new cba is an adjustment which would prevent what happened in Miami this year. This upsets the competitive balance in the league and creates super teams in what would be a tiered league. The Premier L. in soccer in England is a prime example with the league title cycled within 2-3 teams among the top 6-7 ...in the 20 team league.
    Exactly, a hard cap is needed otherwise whats the point of having a "limit" to begin with? LA will always spend much more than Milwakee and Minnesota.

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    We need more Metta World Peace. That has to be best selling jersey next year.

    But seriously, u create a winning environment players will stay. DD loves TO.
    Thank you Employee. And yes, DD and even Weems don't and have to hang out in the local gyms to try to fit in? They do it because I believe they have a great heart and a passion for T.O. We create a winning team and people will want to go there to play. I think that having a coach with a winning attitude isn't too bad either. GO RAPS GO!

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