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Thread: Do we really need an elite point guard?

  1. #21
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    Quote Tortacular wrote: View Post

    You can't build towards the idea of Detroit because they were an extreme outlier.
    I don't think Detroit was as extreme an outlier as everyone might think. In reading this thread it kind of clicked in my brain, that elite point guard or not, as someone else mentioned, its all about protecting the rim. Even the two "elite point guards" who won, Billups and Parker, had either the two Wallaces or The Greatest Power Forward of All Time protecting the rim.

    Even if the teams have weak point guards, when they inevitably get beat, there have always been guys like Duncan, Garnett, Gasol, Bynum, Shaq, and Hakeem there to foil any drives.

    It's ironic to me that in a league that is quite publicly being filled with star and superstar young point guards, they haven't (yet) won anything, and the teams protecting the rim foil them every time the playoffs come.


    On the complete opposite side of the coin, Bloodyhandedgod is right. They are sure fun to watch.

  2. #22
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    Positions don't matter. You need a team of talented players who play as a team.

  3. #23
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    Great teams need a PG that can guard their man and execute the offense. Nothing worse then a PG that over dribbles. Guards need to be able to play D and play off the ball. The flashy guards are often not the most effective. So I would say that to be a great team you need a solid point guard - not a great one - as well as multiple players on the team that can handle and create.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Magic Johnson doesn't make the list I guess because it was so long ago. LeBron is a lot like Magic. If the Heat could convince him to move into such a role they would be unstoppable.
    I would say that is what I hoped for him coming into the league, but Magic made his entire team better. Lebron - debateable at best.

  5. #25
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    Come on now, that Cavs team he brought to the finals was weak. He rallied the troops and dragged them there. I don't like what the guy represents but I have to respect his game, he's earned it.

  6. #26
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    he's magic without the killer instinct. he doesn't really want to be the best otherwise the douchelord would have learned some post moves and a fadeaway. he just wants to be liked and play with his boys. make some money. wear a headband.
    @jerboat

  7. #27
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    Quote Thomas A. wrote: View Post
    Toronto fans always get hung up on one position or another. In the end, all that matters is talent and fit. If you have talented players that play well together you will win, if not you won't.
    Maple Laughs, Craptors, Toronto Fail Club, Argo-nots, and the Lame-Jays all have something in common which is losing. Don't get me wrong, I love all the Toronto Sports teams (despite my sarcasam). But all our teams face the same similar problems which is losing. Every franchise is missing that 'piece.' Until any of the teams are competing in the post season the argument to any one of the clubs will be "we need a better ____." The statement is valid because none of these teams are making post season.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter Hassan's Avatar
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    you need a decent point guard. calderon level is fine

  9. #29
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    You can't be a pylon defensively
    @jerboat

  10. #30
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    Can I just say, since I missed reading it earlier, that Tom Liston's reasoning behind not needing better point guards based on low PER of Derek Fisher and Steve Blake is absolute garbage?

    The Lakers ran a triangle offense, which doesn't require an all-star point guard. It never has. All you need is a point guard who can defend and shoot 3s. That's it. Guess what, no one has effectively run the triangle offense other than Phil Jackson, and we're not about to try.

    Look at Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, John Paxson, BJ Armstrong. 11 Championships won by these guys. Never has any triangle offense required an all-star point.

  11. #31
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    Quote star_bury wrote: View Post
    Positions don't matter. You need a team of talented players who play as a team.
    Atlanta is one example where this is untrue. An extremely talented and athletic team that struggles to beat the elite teams because they didn't pay attention to positions.

    As I said they have tons of athletic players, very talented, very skilled. But many of them are playing out of position because they don't have the right pieces. For years they had an average point guard in Bibby, who has only recently been replaced with Kirk Hinrich. Joe Johnson is the only guy playing the right position. Al Horford should be playing PF, not C. They never bothered to get a real C. Josh Smith should be playing SF for the majority of his minutes but they use him at PF, again because they have no C. Marvin Williams should be coming off the bench, but they have to start him because Smith is playing PF. Jamal Crawford is a combo guard coming off the bench when they should have spent a little less and just got an efficient point guard to run the show and play full time. They don't win because the roles of each player does not properly fit their respective games.

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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I would say that is what I hoped for him coming into the league, but Magic made his entire team better. Lebron - debateable at best.
    Are you kidding me? Look what happened to the Cavs after he left. He made Maurice Williams, a mediocre PG, at best, into an All-Star. Sure, he's never going to be Jordan or Magic, and seems to lack their sheer will, there's no denying he is one of the few players on the league that can put a team on his back.
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  13. #33
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Atlanta is one example where this is untrue. An extremely talented and athletic team that struggles to beat the elite teams because they didn't pay attention to positions.

    As I said they have tons of athletic players, very talented, very skilled. But many of them are playing out of position because they don't have the right pieces. For years they had an average point guard in Bibby, who has only recently been replaced with Kirk Hinrich. Joe Johnson is the only guy playing the right position. Al Horford should be playing PF, not C. They never bothered to get a real C. Josh Smith should be playing SF for the majority of his minutes but they use him at PF, again because they have no C. Marvin Williams should be coming off the bench, but they have to start him because Smith is playing PF. Jamal Crawford is a combo guard coming off the bench when they should have spent a little less and just got an efficient point guard to run the show and play full time. They don't win because the roles of each player does not properly fit their respective games.
    Well, they also don't have any elite players. Joe Johnson is their best player and he's not even a top 20 talent. Teams are usually as good as their best player, and that's the case with Atlanta.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Boomer wrote: View Post
    I don't think Detroit was as extreme an outlier as everyone might think. In reading this thread it kind of clicked in my brain, that elite point guard or not, as someone else mentioned, its all about protecting the rim. Even the two "elite point guards" who won, Billups and Parker, had either the two Wallaces or The Greatest Power Forward of All Time protecting the rim.
    Teams like that can compete, but the only reason they won the Championship that year was because it was a weird year where Kobe and Shaq were feuding, the Spurs were hurt and Detroit took advantage. Following the Detroit plan is simply a bad idea if your intention is to win a Championship.
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  15. #35
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    The "point guard" driven league is in a way a fallacy. Its something fans enjoy watching (thank you Steve Nash), so it sells tickets, gets attention, makes money, therefore GMs want them. They get a ton of attention and then fans/media/pundits just jump on the who's hot bandwagon. But they don't guarantee you success, and they definetely don't automatically turn you into contenders or champions.

    The reality is, and its seen time and time again, that you don't need elite PGs. You don't need elite anything... what you do need elite something. Even with the example of Billups and Parker, I wouldn't put either as elite PGs and they weren't the best players on their teams either. They were good no doubt... but not the best.

    I personally think nothing tops a dominant big man. They are so rare that they instantly give you an edge. But even that guarantees nothing. The only thing that contenders consistently have is atleast one elite player (even Detroit had that in Ben Wallace) and expereince.

  16. #36
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Are you kidding me? Look what happened to the Cavs after he left. He made Maurice Williams, a mediocre PG, at best, into an All-Star. Sure, he's never going to be Jordan or Magic, and seems to lack their sheer will, there's no denying he is one of the few players on the league that can put a team on his back.
    Putting a team on your back is NOT the same thing as making your teammates better. Some players played better because other teams paid more attention to James, not because he made them better, there is a big difference. Watching Miami is another illustration of this: when Wade is on the floor the team flows better, when Lebron is running the show and Wade is on the bench the team is disjointed. That is not making teammates better.

  17. #37
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    Putting a team on your back is NOT the same thing as making your teammates better. Some players played better because other teams paid more attention to James, not because he made them better, there is a big difference. Watching Miami is another illustration of this: when Wade is on the floor the team flows better, when Lebron is running the show and Wade is on the bench the team is disjointed. That is not making teammates better.
    So you're ignoring his first 7 years in Cleveland, where he made the majority of his teammates look better (Mo Williams is NOT an All-Star), and focusing on the one year in Miami, where he had trouble figuring out his role?
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  18. #38
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Teams like that can compete, but the only reason they won the Championship that year was because it was a weird year where Kobe and Shaq were feuding, the Spurs were hurt and Detroit took advantage. Following the Detroit plan is simply a bad idea if your intention is to win a Championship.
    I agree 100 percent that following Detroit's plan is a bad idea. They could conceivably be the worst champ in the last 30-35 years, minimum. They, like you said, got lucky on a weird year. Their team was filled with, at best, a bunch of guys who would typically be the third best guy on most champs. The fact that they could protect the rim so well is what helped them sneak past everyone.

    This point is also why I'm terrified whenever mention goes around of teams shopping guys like Iguodala. He'd be an excellent defensive wing player (especially on this team) but he's not the star player to lead a team everyone thinks. However, he still gets paid like he's a star and that will hamstring teams terribly. He's a good valuable player but getting paid like a #1 and being a #2 or #3 will never lead a team to a title.

    A little separate from the point of your post, but I just felt it applied based on your line about following Detroit's plan, re: a bunch of second bananas.

  19. #39
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    A Champ is a champ in my books. Detroit won 64 games that year and swept the Lakers in the finals 4-1.

    The Mavs won 57 games this last season.
    The Lakers the two seasons prior, 57 and 65.
    The Celtics before them, 66.
    The Spurs the year after the Pistons won, 58.

    The Pistons are not the "worst champion" of the past 35 years. They earned the victory from game one of the season to game five of the finals. They kicked ass all season as a team. Most of us got re-programmed when Stern came on board and begun marketing the sport around the individual instead of the team. Now we value a team on the value of the stars instead of the sum of it's parts(I myself am also guilty as charged sometimes). If you pinned the 05/06 Pistons against either of the finals teams of this year, my money is on that Pistons team.

  20. #40
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    Actually the Pistons won 54 games the year they won (2003-2004):
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/standings?year=season_2003

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