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Thread: Do we really need an elite point guard?

  1. #41
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    My bad, I got my seasons mixed up. Either way they had a strong playoffs run and beat the Lakers in five games. The following year they took the Spurs to seven games. They had a very strong team devoid of big star power. This is why they lack the respect.

  2. #42
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    A Champ is a champ in my books. Detroit won 64 games that year and swept the Lakers in the finals 4-1.

    The Mavs won 57 games this last season.
    The Lakers the two seasons prior, 57 and 65.
    The Celtics before them, 66.
    The Spurs the year after the Pistons won, 58.

    The Pistons are not the "worst champion" of the past 35 years. They earned the victory from game one of the season to game five of the finals. They kicked ass all season as a team. Most of us got re-programmed when Stern came on board and begun marketing the sport around the individual instead of the team. Now we value a team on the value of the stars instead of the sum of it's parts(I myself am also guilty as charged sometimes). If you pinned the 05/06 Pistons against either of the finals teams of this year, my money is on that Pistons team.
    Quite frankly, this was a weak year, too, and reminds me a lot of that season the Pistons won. Not to say that team was not a good team, but they certainly pale in comparison to nearly every other Championship team...except for this year.
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  3. #43
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't know about that. Our current programming/valuation of teams should lead us to believe that the Mavericks are one of the greatest Champions ever. I mean they conquered a team housing one of the "mightiest" superstar trios ever.

    End of the day, you can't keep mucking around in the lottery forever hoping for the best player in the league to carry you to a championship. For one, there numerous players of that level who don't ever win; winning is even difficult with those players in house. There are no extra awards for winning with NBA marketing sweethearts. The Raptors need to aquire the best talent possible to win it. Right now it looks as though they're more likely to win one based on the Pistons model of team play and hard work than to win one based on the Lakers model of stockpiling household names.

  4. #44
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    So you're ignoring his first 7 years in Cleveland, where he made the majority of his teammates look better (Mo Williams is NOT an All-Star), and focusing on the one year in Miami, where he had trouble figuring out his role?
    Hardly, and once again, as I stated in the comment you replied to, other players had better years simply because opposing teams focused on Lebron. I am using Miami as an example, Tim, and while I acknowledge that I am in the minority, I have no issue doing so. Lebron is a very good/great all around player that makes any team he is playing for dangerous, but he does not play within the flow of the game, (which in some instances is excellent for him since he is often dominating in these situations). And I have not stated he does not have a great game or that his game does not deserve respect. But again, watching him play over the course of a decade, he is not a player who involves his teammates, certainly not like Magic did, heart and desire aside.

    My opinion and observations come from playing, observing and critiquing for over 3 decades, forming how I view a game and team. It is certainly not the be all and end all of truth, as is the case with anyone else's opinions. You and I happen to coincide often, but not here. He is not a player I choose for my team, simple as that. I like the flow of a game, and Lebron has a negative impact on that.

  5. #45
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't know about that. Our current programming/valuation of teams should lead us to believe that the Mavericks are one of the greatest Champions ever. I mean they conquered a team housing one of the "mightiest" superstar trios ever.

    End of the day, you can't keep mucking around in the lottery forever hoping for the best player in the league to carry you to a championship. For one, there numerous players of that level who don't ever win; winning is even difficult with those players in house. There are no extra awards for winning with NBA marketing sweethearts. The Raptors need to aquire the best talent possible to win it. Right now it looks as though they're more likely to win one based on the Pistons model of team play and hard work than to win one based on the Lakers model of stockpiling household names.
    I don't know about you, but I wasn't overly impressed with ANY teams this year. I love the Spurs, but they won 61 games without ever looking like a 60 win team. Same goes for Chicago. I think Dallas took advantage of an off year. Neither the Spurs or Lakers are the same teams that won the Championships. Miami isn't there, yet. Neither is Chicago or Oklahoma. Boston and Orlando made trades that actually made them worse.

    And I think the likelihood of drafting an elite player is better than being able to form a Championship team without any elite players.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    Hardly, and once again, as I stated in the comment you replied to, other players had better years simply because opposing teams focused on Lebron. I am using Miami as an example, Tim, and while I acknowledge that I am in the minority, I have no issue doing so. Lebron is a very good/great all around player that makes any team he is playing for dangerous, but he does not play within the flow of the game, (which in some instances is excellent for him since he is often dominating in these situations). And I have not stated he does not have a great game or that his game does not deserve respect. But again, watching him play over the course of a decade, he is not a player who involves his teammates, certainly not like Magic did, heart and desire aside.

    My opinion and observations come from playing, observing and critiquing for over 3 decades, forming how I view a game and team. It is certainly not the be all and end all of truth, as is the case with anyone else's opinions. You and I happen to coincide often, but not here. He is not a player I choose for my team, simple as that. I like the flow of a game, and Lebron has a negative impact on that.
    I'm not saying LeBron is a top 5 player of all-time. I've been disappointed he hasn't been able to fully utilize the enormous gifts he has, but I think he does make his teammates better. Just not to the same level as guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird or even Wade. I haven't particularly liked how he's been used, and I think he's still trying to figure out what kind of player he is. But since you've been following the NBA for as long as I have, you'll probably remember many of those same criticisms you have of LeBron were levelled at Jordan at a similar age. Now, I don't think LeBron will ever be on Jordan's level, but I think you're judging him too harshly, at this point in his career. Hell, remember Kobe, at the same age?
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  7. #47
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying LeBron is a top 5 player of all-time. I've been disappointed he hasn't been able to fully utilize the enormous gifts he has, but I think he does make his teammates better. Just not to the same level as guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird or even Wade. I haven't particularly liked how he's been used, and I think he's still trying to figure out what kind of player he is. But since you've been following the NBA for as long as I have, you'll probably remember many of those same criticisms you have of LeBron were levelled at Jordan at a similar age. Now, I don't think LeBron will ever be on Jordan's level, but I think you're judging him too harshly, at this point in his career. Hell, remember Kobe, at the same age?
    I definitely remember the Jordan criticisms, and I was behind/along many of them. I have never been a fan, however he did adapt somewhat. It remains to be seen if Lebron does, and you are correct he has been used incorrectly and coddled to a great extent (a product of today's game perhaps?).

    Oh, as a Lakers fan, I definitely remember Kobe when he came in, and was not happy. You could see he could play, but playing with others was a huge question. He adapted, although perhaps not as much as Jordan did.

  8. #48
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know about you, but I wasn't overly impressed with ANY teams this year. I love the Spurs, but they won 61 games without ever looking like a 60 win team. Same goes for Chicago. I think Dallas took advantage of an off year. Neither the Spurs or Lakers are the same teams that won the Championships. Miami isn't there, yet. Neither is Chicago or Oklahoma. Boston and Orlando made trades that actually made them worse.

    And I think the likelihood of drafting an elite player is better than being able to form a Championship team without any elite players.
    This has been one of the strongest years of basketball in a while. The east got signficantly better at the top, and the west stayed the strongest from top to bottom. If we are going to say a 60 win team didn't "look like a 60 win team", Miami, Chicago, OKC "aren't there yet", LA is "not the same" well thats the type of argument you can then make for any team in any year. Very arbitrary. If you look at some of the Lakers championships in the first part of the decade, there were only 2 teams that were ever going to compete with them in the west (Sac and Port), 1 in the east (Detroit). I find that to be much weaker than 8-9 being considered contenders.

    As for Detroit. People are really not giving them enough credit here. That was a well built team with good players 1-5 and perhaps one of the best defensive players to ever play the game (Ben Wallace). To me thats an elite player (I may be a bit off here but 4 straight DPoY awards and lead the league... or right at the top anyways... in blocks, steals and rebounds each of those years, if I'm not mistaken) I'll say the east was weak during their 'dynasty', but they competed for years with all those teams in the west and they were the ONLY team to knock off the Lakers over that 4 year span. They weren't one of the best teams ever, but they were still an extremely good team. If that team was in its prime today... I'd bet they'd still be a top team in the league. I will say though that they were an outlier compared to most championship teams (ie. star players tend be offensively gifted, and teams will usually have more than one superstar)

  9. #49
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    This has been one of the strongest years of basketball in a while. The east got signficantly better at the top, and the west stayed the strongest from top to bottom. If we are going to say a 60 win team didn't "look like a 60 win team", Miami, Chicago, OKC "aren't there yet", LA is "not the same" well thats the type of argument you can then make for any team in any year. Very arbitrary. If you look at some of the Lakers championships in the first part of the decade, there were only 2 teams that were ever going to compete with them in the west (Sac and Port), 1 in the east (Detroit). I find that to be much weaker than 8-9 being considered contenders.

    As for Detroit. People are really not giving them enough credit here. That was a well built team with good players 1-5 and perhaps one of the best defensive players to ever play the game (Ben Wallace). To me thats an elite player (I may be a bit off here but 4 straight DPoY awards and lead the league... or right at the top anyways... in blocks, steals and rebounds each of those years, if I'm not mistaken) I'll say the east was weak during their 'dynasty', but they competed for years with all those teams in the west and they were the ONLY team to knock off the Lakers over that 4 year span. They weren't one of the best teams ever, but they were still an extremely good team. If that team was in its prime today... I'd bet they'd still be a top team in the league. I will say though that they were an outlier compared to most championship teams (ie. star players tend be offensively gifted, and teams will usually have more than one superstar)
    I was never overly impressed with any team this year. They simply didn't look as good as in years past. It's obviously hard to prove anything, but I simply never felt the level of play was as good in most past years. And I think one big reason is that's it's a transition year.

    As for Detroit, I think they were a very, very good team, but I do think they were one of the worst Champions in the last 30 years. This Dallas team would be pretty close, too, in my opinion.
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