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Thread: Devils Advocate: Let's say Bargs DOES figure things out

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Default Devils Advocate: Let's say Bargs DOES figure things out

    and becomes the 4 we all dreamed he would be. with him, i think that suggests even average defense and you can't tell me BC wouldn't be completely content if that was the case.

    ..what happens to Ed?
    @jerboat

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    Ed becomes Al Horford, and Amir becomes Glen Davis.

    How is this devil's advocate?

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    You mean if bargs becomes an allstar then Val comes here, we will have too many bigs.
    Although I think davis will be our starting pf (or at least should be) we need to at least consider trade options.
    becoming emotionally attatched to a player is bad for buisness (just like at buss not trading bynum for howard).
    If we can trade Davis for someone better than we need to do it, Sorry ed.

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    I think we're jumping the gun a little here, lets wait til val comes over to speculate

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Listening to Casey's interviews since he came here, I'd say Ed Davis gets moved and we have Val, Alabi, Bargs, and Amir as our bigs. I have yet to hear him say anything at all about Ed Davis, I'm not sure why that is but my first thought is that he intends to give Bargs the Power Forward job if he can improve this season. If Solo also makes some improvements and becomes a decent bench player I'd imagine that Ed is moved before Amir. You can probably get a lot more for Ed and Amir will be the cheaper option once Ed's rookie deal runs out. It could just be that since Ed was a rookie last year Dwayne hasn't talked about him because he's still a bit of an unknown, but all the talk of working with Bargs has me thinking they are still hoping he gets it.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Listening to Casey's interviews since he came here, I'd say Ed Davis gets moved and we have Val, Alabi, Bargs, and Amir as our bigs. I have yet to hear him say anything at all about Ed Davis, I'm not sure why that is but my first thought is that he intends to give Bargs the Power Forward job if he can improve this season. If Solo also makes some improvements and becomes a decent bench player I'd imagine that Ed is moved before Amir. You can probably get a lot more for Ed and Amir will be the cheaper option once Ed's rookie deal runs out. It could just be that since Ed was a rookie last year Dwayne hasn't talked about him because he's still a bit of an unknown, but all the talk of working with Bargs has me thinking they are still hoping he gets it.
    Here's hoping they keep ED until Bargs at least shows he gets it, otherwise just plain keep him (ED)!

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Personally, I would be most open to trading Amir.

    JV, Ed and Bargnani all have different styles of games, that provide a coach with multiple lineup looks and mismatches. I would really like to see that 3-man big rotation under Casey (IF he can get Bargnani to commit to playing D and not let him get away with being lazy).

    As has been discussed in other threads, I think Amir duplicates Ed's game. Although Amir is young, he has played several years in the league already and his body has taken a lot of abuse, he still fouls too much to stay on the court enough to log starters minutes and his game hasn't improved enough all around to be a true starting PF (and he's too small to play C). I like Amir, I love his hustle, but he would be my first pick to be traded, before JV, Ed and Bargnani.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie KingRaptors's Avatar
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    LOL maybe Casey doesn't know all his players and it could all be an honest mistake... if I'm a new guy to the team I would only know Derozan & Bargnani.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    First of all it is in the teams best interest to make it at least seem like Andrea is still part of the team's future and that he will improve on last season. He is a proven scorer in the league and teams may see some value in him, if the organization just throws him under the bus we will get nothing in return. On the flip side, if Andrea hears that he is still wanted and is going to be given opportunities to play the 4, he may put in a good off-season and come back a better player....a good thing for the team.

    As for the Ed and Amir debate I feel that because Ed is on his rookie deal we will be able to keep for a long time, he should getting lots of minutes even when Jonas comes over, a big rotation of Jonas, Ed and Andrea could be a pretty good one with lots of minutes to go around. Amir has a reasonable contract for his age and production, if we need to move him he will fetch something good in return and teams will not feel like we are dumping salary.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Ed Davis is easier to move because he's on a small contract and his rookie season showed enough promise that a lot of teams will be interested. He could very well be better than Amir, in fact I think that is a certainty. Don't get me wrong.. if we trade Ed, I'll be disappointed but I think we'll get fair value for him.

    Amir Johnson has way less trade value. He's a backup PF who does not have enough to make it worthwhile for him to enter the game often. Yes, he played a lot of minutes for us but remember we were a 22 win team. On a good team he is probably the 2nd big guy off the bench. And for that role, his contract and salary is unattractive and BC will have a hard time finding someone to take him. I'd be much happier if we traded Amir but the number of teams interested will be small and they won't be offering much.

    (All this is assuming that the team believes they HAVE to move someone.)

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Amir to Portland for Oden? Amir to Dallas for Haywood? I would be happy with this sort of trade that simultaneously addresses the team's need for a defensive/rebounding veteran C and relieves the logjam at PF.

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    My gut tells me that of the bigs, Andrea is the only one to stay. I loved the JV pick but sadly at the cost of Ed or Amir. Casey's recent interviews trouble me because he's basically urging to get a defensive C and Andrea will be fine in HIS DEFENSIVE SCHEME. Unfortunately, this short-sightedness will cost the team future picks (if the team starts getting 30+ wins). Bargs will continue to enjoy his cushy position as the # 1 option on offense and that'll be it. I'm prepared to wait but certainly, Bargs is here to stay.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    If Andrea "gets it" (I know he won't because unlike Dirk, he doesn't even rebound) and costs us this, while stunting the development of Ed and Amir, then all my joy for the JV pick will wither away.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    best case scenario: BC wakes up and trades bargs for a first round draft pick and a closet of new suits
    worst case scenario: bargs averages 5 rebound a game, BC sees "vast improvement!" and trades Ed to the miami heat who go on to win the next 7 championships
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    you might call it hyperbole but my gut hurts
    @jerboat

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    he still fouls too much to stay on the court enough to log starters minutes
    FYI he average 3.0 PF this year.
    His per 36 foul rate is 5.1 a significant reduction.

    I don't think you can have bargs AND Davis unless Davis plays the C. He is going to make too much money after his rookie contract is up to play him as a back up. Amir however has a cheap enough contract that you can justify playing him as a back up on a good team and since we all plan on being a good team 2-3 years from now Amir probably makes more sense than Davis. However, I'd rather trade bargs. Also if Davis can play the C then that would be awesome. Not convinced he can though.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I don't think you can have bargs AND Davis unless Davis plays the C. He is going to make too much money after his rookie contract is up to play him as a back up. Amir however has a cheap enough contract that you can justify playing him as a back up on a good team and since we all plan on being a good team 2-3 years from now Amir probably makes more sense than Davis. However, I'd rather trade bargs. Also if Davis can play the C then that would be awesome. Not convinced he can though.
    I get what you're saying, but usually a player's second contract is in the $6-10M range (under the current CBA), which means Davis wouldn't be making that much more than Amir when he's off his rookie contract. I would keep JV, Ed and Bargnani because I think they all have much more upside than Amir and it certainly gives the team the potential to throw out several very different looking lineup combinations: JV/Ed, JV/Bargnani, Bargnani/Ed or even JV/Ed/Bargnani (at 3) for short bursts if they want to go with a towering front court (or against certain teams where Bargnani could matchup against opposing 3s - ie: Turk, Kirilenko, etc..).

    I have read that there are teams (including Portland) that are looking for backup PFs, for whom Amir could fit the bill quite well. It's just a matter of finding a team that needs a backup PF, who has depth at C to trade back (or find a 3rd team to work into a trade, if need be).

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I get what you're saying, but usually a player's second contract is in the $6-10M range (under the current CBA), which means Davis wouldn't be making that much more than Amir when he's off his rookie contract. I would keep JV, Ed and Bargnani because I think they all have much more upside than Amir and it certainly gives the team the potential to throw out several very different looking lineup combinations: JV/Ed, JV/Bargnani, Bargnani/Ed or even JV/Ed/Bargnani (at 3) for short bursts if they want to go with a towering front court (or against certain teams where Bargnani could matchup against opposing 3s - ie: Turk, Kirilenko, etc..).

    I have read that there are teams (including Portland) that are looking for backup PFs, for whom Amir could fit the bill quite well. It's just a matter of finding a team that needs a backup PF, who has depth at C to trade back (or find a 3rd team to work into a trade, if need be).
    It's not necessarily about which player has more upside. It's which player will help you win the most. At his best, Bargnani can help you win more, but his best is few and far between. Amir consistently helps you win more, he doesn't need to be motivated, like Bargnani, he plays well as both a starter and bench player, and if he is on the bench, his contract isn't an issue.

    The problem with keeping Bargnani even if he "gets it" is that there is the real danger that he will regress again. It's like dating a girl who cheats, but then swears she will stop. She might for a while, but can you ever really trust her again?

    Davis, Amir and Valanciunas all appear to naturally want to work hard on the court, rebound and defend. Bargnani naturally floats and picks his spots, while letting others do the dirty work. Casey MIGHT get him to turn things around, but how long will that last? And do you want to hitch your wagon to a guy who NEEDS to be motivated?

    A front court of Davis, Amir and Valanciunas doesn't have the offensive ability that one does with Bargnani, but it also doesn't need to be babysat.
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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It's not necessarily about which player has more upside. It's which player will help you win the most. At his best, Bargnani can help you win more, but his best is few and far between. Amir consistently helps you win more, he doesn't need to be motivated, like Bargnani, he plays well as both a starter and bench player, and if he is on the bench, his contract isn't an issue.

    The problem with keeping Bargnani even if he "gets it" is that there is the real danger that he will regress again. It's like dating a girl who cheats, but then swears she will stop. She might for a while, but can you ever really trust her again?

    Davis, Amir and Valanciunas all appear to naturally want to work hard on the court, rebound and defend. Bargnani naturally floats and picks his spots, while letting others do the dirty work. Casey MIGHT get him to turn things around, but how long will that last? And do you want to hitch your wagon to a guy who NEEDS to be motivated?

    A front court of Davis, Amir and Valanciunas doesn't have the offensive ability that one does with Bargnani, but it also doesn't need to be babysat.
    All fair points, but there are a few points why I would still lean towards trading Amir 1st among those 4:

    - Amir hustles and is a great team guy, but even at his best, his defense can be replaced by JV/Ed and his offense is terribly inconsistent (he seemed to regress last season)

    - once JV comes over, Ed & DeRozan have another year of starting under their belts and potentially another stud is drafted (ie: Barnes), Bargnani will not be expected to be/treated like "the man" and he could very well offer a game that differs from both JV and Ed, off the bench

    - putting Bargnani's game along with JV/Ed gives a lot more variety to the C/PF position than Amir would; redundancy is NOT a bad thing, but I would personally rather have more lineup options and flexibility, to be able to create more different lineups with differing looks, to exploit matchups (even playing Bargnani at the SF spot against certain teams, with JV & Ed all on the floor)

    - Amir's contract, age, upside as a solid backup PF should create some pretty decent demand around the league, for teams like Portland, Dallas and New Orleans (if West leaves), among others... and could fetch players like Oden/Haywood in return, from teams that have depth at C


    haha and to continue your analogy, Bargnani may be the hot girl who is way out of your league that cheats, but Amir is the loyal smothering girl that puts out regularly, but at the end of the day just isn't hot enough to be considered serious girfriend/marriage material... lol you have to decide if you want to stick with the safe, average looking girl, or take a chance the super hot girl can become the one...

    lol definitely your classic risk/reward decision! For me, if JV and Ed are your starters, then I am much more willing to take that risk when it's the backup PF we're debating.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jun 29th, 2011 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    All fair points, but there are a few points why I would still lean towards trading Amir 1st among those 4:

    - Amir hustles and is a great team guy, but even at his best, his defense can be replaced by JV/Ed and his offense is terribly inconsistent (he seemed to regress last season)

    - once JV comes over, Ed & DeRozan have another year of starting under their belts and potentially another stud is drafted (ie: Barnes), Bargnani will not be expected to be/treated like "the man" and he could very well offer a game that differs from both JV and Ed, off the bench

    - putting Bargnani's game along with JV/Ed gives a lot more variety to the C/PF position than Amir would; redundancy is NOT a bad thing, but I would personally rather have more lineup options and flexibility, to be able to create more different lineups with differing looks, to exploit matchups (even playing Bargnani at the SF spot against certain teams, with JV & Ed all on the floor)

    - Amir's contract, age, upside as a solid backup PF should create some pretty decent demand around the league, for teams like Portland, Dallas and New Orleans (if West leaves), among others... and could fetch players like Oden/Haywood in return, from teams that have depth at C


    haha and to continue your analogy, Bargnani may be the hot girl who is way out of your league that cheats, but Amir is the loyal smothering girl that puts out regularly, but at the end of the day just isn't hot enough to be considered serious girfriend/marriage material... lol you have to decide if you want to stick with the safe, average looking girl, or take a chance the super hot girl can become the one...

    lol definitely your classic risk/reward decision! For me, if JV and Ed are your starters, then I am much more willing to take that risk when it's the backup PF we're debating.
    Amir was one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, last season, added a decent mid range jumper and expanded his post game. I really have no clue why you say he regressed. That's just not correct at all. And you can never have enough big men that hustle, play defense and rebound. Valanciunas and Davis can't replace Amir's play if they're not on the court, which one of them won't be if Amir is on the floor. Optimally, you want your entire front court to be able to defend and rebound at all times. Trading away Amir will mean that won't be the case with the Raptors.

    Bargnani's game will certainly differ, but that doesn't necessarily (and probably won't) mean that it's better.

    Redundancy is certainly not a bad thing. And flexibility is great, but not if it doesn't help you win. First and foremost, you need your front court to defend and rebound. All of them. If Bargnani were to be a 15 to 20 mpg player, then it might be fine, but he's making far too much money to play that little. If he plays more his lack of defense and rebounding become too much of an issue. Amir is making far less and helps the team more consistently. That's all that matters.

    It's not necessarily about who has the most trade value. It's who you want to keep. And I want to keep Amir over Bargnani and day of the week.

    As for the analogy, Amir is the...I'm not going to get into that. It's just too weird, now.
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