Devils Advocate: Let's say Bargs DOES figure things out

[ezz_bee]

he still fouls too much to stay on the court enough to log starters minutes

FYI he average 3.0 PF this year.
His per 36 foul rate is 5.1 a significant reduction.

I don't think you can have bargs AND Davis unless Davis plays the C. He is going to make too much money after his rookie contract is up to play him as a back up. Amir however has a cheap enough contract that you can justify playing him as a back up on a good team and since we all plan on being a good team 2-3 years from now Amir probably makes more sense than Davis. However, I'd rather trade bargs. Also if Davis can play the C then that would be awesome. Not convinced he can though.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I don't think you can have bargs AND Davis unless Davis plays the C. He is going to make too much money after his rookie contract is up to play him as a back up. Amir however has a cheap enough contract that you can justify playing him as a back up on a good team and since we all plan on being a good team 2-3 years from now Amir probably makes more sense than Davis. However, I'd rather trade bargs. Also if Davis can play the C then that would be awesome. Not convinced he can though.

I get what you're saying, but usually a player's second contract is in the $6-10M range (under the current CBA), which means Davis wouldn't be making that much more than Amir when he's off his rookie contract. I would keep JV, Ed and Bargnani because I think they all have much more upside than Amir and it certainly gives the team the potential to throw out several very different looking lineup combinations: JV/Ed, JV/Bargnani, Bargnani/Ed or even JV/Ed/Bargnani (at 3) for short bursts if they want to go with a towering front court (or against certain teams where Bargnani could matchup against opposing 3s - ie: Turk, Kirilenko, etc..).

I have read that there are teams (including Portland) that are looking for backup PFs, for whom Amir could fit the bill quite well. It's just a matter of finding a team that needs a backup PF, who has depth at C to trade back (or find a 3rd team to work into a trade, if need be).

[Tim W.]

I get what you're saying, but usually a player's second contract is in the $6-10M range (under the current CBA), which means Davis wouldn't be making that much more than Amir when he's off his rookie contract. I would keep JV, Ed and Bargnani because I think they all have much more upside than Amir and it certainly gives the team the potential to throw out several very different looking lineup combinations: JV/Ed, JV/Bargnani, Bargnani/Ed or even JV/Ed/Bargnani (at 3) for short bursts if they want to go with a towering front court (or against certain teams where Bargnani could matchup against opposing 3s - ie: Turk, Kirilenko, etc..).

I have read that there are teams (including Portland) that are looking for backup PFs, for whom Amir could fit the bill quite well. It's just a matter of finding a team that needs a backup PF, who has depth at C to trade back (or find a 3rd team to work into a trade, if need be).

It's not necessarily about which player has more upside. It's which player will help you win the most. At his best, Bargnani can help you win more, but his best is few and far between. Amir consistently helps you win more, he doesn't need to be motivated, like Bargnani, he plays well as both a starter and bench player, and if he is on the bench, his contract isn't an issue.

The problem with keeping Bargnani even if he "gets it" is that there is the real danger that he will regress again. It's like dating a girl who cheats, but then swears she will stop. She might for a while, but can you ever really trust her again?

Davis, Amir and Valanciunas all appear to naturally want to work hard on the court, rebound and defend. Bargnani naturally floats and picks his spots, while letting others do the dirty work. Casey MIGHT get him to turn things around, but how long will that last? And do you want to hitch your wagon to a guy who NEEDS to be motivated?

A front court of Davis, Amir and Valanciunas doesn't have the offensive ability that one does with Bargnani, but it also doesn't need to be babysat.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

It's not necessarily about which player has more upside. It's which player will help you win the most. At his best, Bargnani can help you win more, but his best is few and far between. Amir consistently helps you win more, he doesn't need to be motivated, like Bargnani, he plays well as both a starter and bench player, and if he is on the bench, his contract isn't an issue.

The problem with keeping Bargnani even if he "gets it" is that there is the real danger that he will regress again. It's like dating a girl who cheats, but then swears she will stop. She might for a while, but can you ever really trust her again?

Davis, Amir and Valanciunas all appear to naturally want to work hard on the court, rebound and defend. Bargnani naturally floats and picks his spots, while letting others do the dirty work. Casey MIGHT get him to turn things around, but how long will that last? And do you want to hitch your wagon to a guy who NEEDS to be motivated?

A front court of Davis, Amir and Valanciunas doesn't have the offensive ability that one does with Bargnani, but it also doesn't need to be babysat.

All fair points, but there are a few points why I would still lean towards trading Amir 1st among those 4:

- Amir hustles and is a great team guy, but even at his best, his defense can be replaced by JV/Ed and his offense is terribly inconsistent (he seemed to regress last season)

- once JV comes over, Ed & DeRozan have another year of starting under their belts and potentially another stud is drafted (ie: Barnes), Bargnani will not be expected to be/treated like "the man" and he could very well offer a game that differs from both JV and Ed, off the bench

- putting Bargnani's game along with JV/Ed gives a lot more variety to the C/PF position than Amir would; redundancy is NOT a bad thing, but I would personally rather have more lineup options and flexibility, to be able to create more different lineups with differing looks, to exploit matchups (even playing Bargnani at the SF spot against certain teams, with JV & Ed all on the floor)

- Amir's contract, age, upside as a solid backup PF should create some pretty decent demand around the league, for teams like Portland, Dallas and New Orleans (if West leaves), among others... and could fetch players like Oden/Haywood in return, from teams that have depth at C


haha and to continue your analogy, Bargnani may be the hot girl who is way out of your league that cheats, but Amir is the loyal smothering girl that puts out regularly, but at the end of the day just isn't hot enough to be considered serious girfriend/marriage material... lol you have to decide if you want to stick with the safe, average looking girl, or take a chance the super hot girl can become the one...

lol definitely your classic risk/reward decision! For me, if JV and Ed are your starters, then I am much more willing to take that risk when it's the backup PF we're debating.

[Tim W.]

All fair points, but there are a few points why I would still lean towards trading Amir 1st among those 4:

- Amir hustles and is a great team guy, but even at his best, his defense can be replaced by JV/Ed and his offense is terribly inconsistent (he seemed to regress last season)

- once JV comes over, Ed & DeRozan have another year of starting under their belts and potentially another stud is drafted (ie: Barnes), Bargnani will not be expected to be/treated like "the man" and he could very well offer a game that differs from both JV and Ed, off the bench

- putting Bargnani's game along with JV/Ed gives a lot more variety to the C/PF position than Amir would; redundancy is NOT a bad thing, but I would personally rather have more lineup options and flexibility, to be able to create more different lineups with differing looks, to exploit matchups (even playing Bargnani at the SF spot against certain teams, with JV & Ed all on the floor)

- Amir's contract, age, upside as a solid backup PF should create some pretty decent demand around the league, for teams like Portland, Dallas and New Orleans (if West leaves), among others... and could fetch players like Oden/Haywood in return, from teams that have depth at C


haha and to continue your analogy, Bargnani may be the hot girl who is way out of your league that cheats, but Amir is the loyal smothering girl that puts out regularly, but at the end of the day just isn't hot enough to be considered serious girfriend/marriage material... lol you have to decide if you want to stick with the safe, average looking girl, or take a chance the super hot girl can become the one...

lol definitely your classic risk/reward decision! For me, if JV and Ed are your starters, then I am much more willing to take that risk when it's the backup PF we're debating.

Amir was one of the most efficient offensive players in the league, last season, added a decent mid range jumper and expanded his post game. I really have no clue why you say he regressed. That's just not correct at all. And you can never have enough big men that hustle, play defense and rebound. Valanciunas and Davis can't replace Amir's play if they're not on the court, which one of them won't be if Amir is on the floor. Optimally, you want your entire front court to be able to defend and rebound at all times. Trading away Amir will mean that won't be the case with the Raptors.

Bargnani's game will certainly differ, but that doesn't necessarily (and probably won't) mean that it's better.

Redundancy is certainly not a bad thing. And flexibility is great, but not if it doesn't help you win. First and foremost, you need your front court to defend and rebound. All of them. If Bargnani were to be a 15 to 20 mpg player, then it might be fine, but he's making far too much money to play that little. If he plays more his lack of defense and rebounding become too much of an issue. Amir is making far less and helps the team more consistently. That's all that matters.

It's not necessarily about who has the most trade value. It's who you want to keep. And I want to keep Amir over Bargnani and day of the week.

As for the analogy, Amir is the...I'm not going to get into that. It's just too weird, now.

[knickz]

and becomes the 4 we all dreamed he would be. with him, i think that suggests even average defense and you can't tell me BC wouldn't be completely content if that was the case.

..what happens to Ed?

i have never dreamnt of bargs being our 4...i want this tool shipped out asap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[saints91]

I think one more thing we have to look at is which players want to be here. I don't a sense the love for Toronto from Ed. With Amir, you know he loves being here. There is no point in building around players that don't have us in the future plans.

Ed would net us some better young talent. Package him with Bayless or Calderon and we might get a stud SF or PG.

[enlightenment]

its obvious, if andrea gets it and has an amazing first half to his season, he's traded by the deadline for some serious SF help. If andrea does not real us in a strong SF, then he will be moved to the bench, amir gets traded, and we are left with ED and Val as starters. Either way, Ed is not going anywhere, We have a serious front court for years to come and Ed would seem like the real steal of the draft, making Bryan Colengelo seem like a genius.

[ebrian]

I suppose it's not a surprise that we drafted a player that would maximize BC's chances of justifying that we keep Bargnani... sigh.

[ceez]

big val and ed with bargs coming off the bench is pretty hot but theres no way bc lets his prized #1 pick come off the bench.

[ceez]

tho he did draft big val which was pretty surprising everything considered. maybe we've entered a new era of "i don't give a fuck" BC.

[optifan]

Personally, I would be most open to trading Amir.

JV, Ed and Bargnani all have different styles of games, that provide a coach with multiple lineup looks and mismatches. I would really like to see that 3-man big rotation under Casey (IF he can get Bargnani to commit to playing D and not let him get away with being lazy).

As has been discussed in other threads, I think Amir duplicates Ed's game. Although Amir is young, he has played several years in the league already and his body has taken a lot of abuse, he still fouls too much to stay on the court enough to log starters minutes and his game hasn't improved enough all around to be a true starting PF (and he's too small to play C). I like Amir, I love his hustle, but he would be my first pick to be traded, before JV, Ed and Bargnani.

+1

[enlightenment]

big val and ed with bargs coming off the bench is pretty hot but theres no way bc lets his prized #1 pick come off the bench.

Even to let his prized 5th and 13th draft steals shine?

[Tim W.]

tho he did draft big val which was pretty surprising everything considered. maybe we've entered a new era of "i don't give a fuck" BC.

I really don't understand why people were surprised with the pick. At all. I'm still astounded that people said they were surprised. A center everyone thought would be picked earlier dropped. The absolute biggest positional need of the Raptors is the center. His strengths are the Raptors weaknesses. Why was this surprising?

[SCass]

I would definitely favor keeping Ed over Amir. Ed has better size, length, athleticism, and basketball IQ (Amir's fouling rate doesn't appear to be going down anytime soon). Plus, I think he will eventually add some skill to his game.

The biggest hole in the current roster is obviously center, and outside of Joel Pryzbilla, I don't see anyone else really fitting the team's needs (in terms of a short-term, hole-plugging solution which doesn't require us having to pay 10 million per in free agency).

But looking at Colangelo's active offseason history, I think the most likely solution will come by trade. We have too many PFs, and either Amir or Ed would likely fetch a good center.

I'm thinking Kaman plus a pick for Amir? However, I would also like to see the Raps go after a guy who they can eventually trade away, getting something back in return -- essentially a rental center.

Oden?