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Thread: Has Bautista's All-Star Success Proved Bosh's US Exposure Claims to be false?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Agrippa wrote: View Post
    Tim Duncan made his name with rings not pizzaz, Hakeem, Dwight, Shaq are all marketable names as bigs. A main reason for that is not their market, but the fact they play deep in the playoffs when everyone is watching
    Yeah, Timmy D. is on another level as a player, but I thought the question had more to do with playing for an American market vs. Canadian. Production of either player aside, would Duncan have gotten the media coverage if played in Toronto? And since I'm speaking hypothetically lets just say that he played with the team mates that Bosh did and wins didn't come so easy.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    One more thing, Stoudemire, Carter, McGrady and Bosh? Which one of those guys has led anybody to great heights? They all have a major character flaw and none of them are great leaders. They were all exciting scorers for the Raptors but the team was not going to win a ring with any of them leading the show. Do you think a guy like Kevin Durant would bail on the Raptors? I know I don't because he has too much pride and accountability to quit. They need to find the right stars. Drafting a guy with Kevin Durant ability may not be a realistic goal unless the Raptors land high in the lottery each year but drafting guys with the right psychological makeup is something that can be attainable every year. Mentally and/or physically soft "Me" players aren't getting you anywhere even if you're in love with the guy's scoring almost as much as he is.
    Exactly.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Yeah, Timmy D. is on another level as a player, but I thought the question had more to do with playing for an American market vs. Canadian. Production of either player aside, would Duncan have gotten the media coverage if played in Toronto? And since I'm speaking hypothetically lets just say that he played with the team mates that Bosh did and wins didn't come so easy.
    With Duncan it all comes down to winning. Even with all the rings he has I bet he's sold a lot less jerseys than some of the more "exciting" high flyers that never won anything. .

    He's prob the best PF ever, but for a typical non-hardcore NBA fan he's pretty boring to watch.
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Yeah, Timmy D. is on another level as a player, but I thought the question had more to do with playing for an American market vs. Canadian. Production of either player aside, would Duncan have gotten the media coverage if played in Toronto? And since I'm speaking hypothetically lets just say that he played with the team mates that Bosh did and wins didn't come so easy.
    He would have got more exposure than Bosh did purely because he is better, and the team would have won more games. However, San Antonio gets more coverage because they are always good, and they've become the cliche well run small market team(Thunder encroaching on them). With those likeable high character guys that Apollo talked about. But Duncan is a two time MVP and who knows what would have went down had a guy like him played for the Raptors. So maybe San Antonio gets more coverage off prestige alone, but they earned that. Its got nothing to do with Canada or the USA. Its a franchise to franchise distinction, and a player to player distinction.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Dalex wrote: View Post
    @ ceez
    thanks man
    for future ref., you can hit the "reply with quote" button, it saves you from having to write some of the quirky names here and it also saves you from having to log in and then having to hit "post reply".

    to your point, bautista is like vince carter was where he's playing like an mvp and carter was dunking on the entire world where bautista is hitting dingers left and right.

    Bosh just failed to realize that he is not a good enough player to garner that attention and his best year he was putting up 20 and 10, only problem was so we're have the guys at his positions.

    not to rip on the guy, but, a jump shooting pf isn't exactly as exciting as a home run king or a masterful dunker and people have finally come to realize that.

    most people figured he was just underrated because nobody payed attention to toronto, but, now in miami they realize it wasn't the team, it was the player all along.

    so, i don't think bautista's all star success proves bosh's theory wrong because i don't think it was a theory, and bosh certainly isn't going to prove that it is playing behing lbj and wade and getting two dunks a game acting like it's the best dunk anyone has ever seen every time.
    Last edited by LBF; Tue Jul 5th, 2011 at 01:55 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    We're not talking about highlight reels we're talking about production and helping the team win. Blake does it, and yes the dunking over anyone and everyone helps. Duncan was universally praised by just about everyone for what he did. He may not have been on sportscenter ever but ive never heard anyone say a bad thing about him.

    He was also first team nba and defense for how many years?
    Tim Duncan is even "growing old" gracefully, with class and inclusive of team needs. He has taken a lesser role offensively to concentrate on defense and also minutes played so Popovich can manage his longevity and the inevitable.

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Tim Duncan is even "growing old" gracefully, with class and inclusive of team needs. He has taken a lesser role offensively to concentrate on defense and also minutes played so Popovich can manage his longevity and the inevitable.
    He's the anti-Iverson.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    It is clear that Bosh has few hi-light moments in his game to warrant too many "letmeseethatagain" responses. It is also clear that Miami erred by not choosing Amare as their power forward f/a signing. He would also have been cheaper! In Bosh's defense how many people around him would actually tell him the truth about his game. Introspection can be difficult when you are successful. I think he is smart enough to have probably figured out by now that he was wrong about those thoughts of not enough exposure...or rather exposure unintended.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    If Bosh led the league in scoring like Bautista does with home runs, he would have gotten his due as well. Bosh overestimates his own marketability without realizing that the market/media isn't undervaluing or ignoring him, they're giving him the same amount of pub that is deserved of a player of his caliber. When Bosh was in Toronto, I'd say he got more pub than someone like David West, and those two are pretty much on par, I'd even say West is better.

    Vince Carter led the league in All-Star votes by a distance while in Toronto, Roy Halladay was recognized every start on ESPN and so on. It's what you do, not where you play.
    Thank you very much for including Roy Holliday in your post. I was about to do the same when I read yours. You are right. It is how you play not where you play. And also, he could have owned the Canadian Advertisements and be treated like royalty if he had stayed and played in Canada. Guess the grass might be greener on the other side but the water bill to keep that grass greener is more expensive. Great reply!

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Raptoronto's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Yeah, Timmy D. is on another level as a player, but I thought the question had more to do with playing for an American market vs. Canadian. Production of either player aside, would Duncan have gotten the media coverage if played in Toronto? And since I'm speaking hypothetically lets just say that he played with the team mates that Bosh did and wins didn't come so easy.
    Duncan is the reason the Spurs have been so consistently good. He makes it very easy to fit players around him (makes management and coaches look good) as he does everything well and makes everyone so much better. He's also a leader who doesn't waiver on expectation...every game is a game to be won and everyone needs to be on board. When he retires the Spurs will go right back on the treadmill and people will wonder what happen to the Spurs magical ability to pick up useful scraps.

    If he was with the Raptors the personnel would have been selected differently and with Duncan's attitude, he simply wouldn't have cared about the attention (by choice he has very few sponsors and he avoids the media). In the end I have no doubt he would be just as well recognized and respected as he is now. Now if he played with a high-profile/big basketball market he would be in constant discussions as one of top 5 greatest players ever (Russell type mystic) IMO.
    Last edited by Raptoronto; Tue Jul 5th, 2011 at 02:48 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Agrippa wrote: View Post
    He would have got more exposure than Bosh did purely because he is better, and the team would have won more games. However, San Antonio gets more coverage because they are always good, and they've become the cliche well run small market team(Thunder encroaching on them). With those likeable high character guys that Apollo talked about. But Duncan is a two time MVP and who knows what would have went down had a guy like him played for the Raptors. So maybe San Antonio gets more coverage off prestige alone, but they earned that. Its got nothing to do with Canada or the USA. Its a franchise to franchise distinction, and a player to player distinction.
    No arguing with that. Winning would have solved any issues Bosh had with not getting the media exposure he craved. I guess I was trying to figure out if there was some corrolation between a good guard or wing player as opposed to a good big man. Keeping in mind that they are just good and not great players like Duncan.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Who's Chris Bosh?
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    It is clear that Bosh has few hi-light moments in his game to warrant too many "letmeseethatagain" responses. It is also clear that Miami erred by not choosing Amare as their power forward f/a signing. He would also have been cheaper! In Bosh's defense how many people around him would actually tell him the truth about his game. Introspection can be difficult when you are successful. I think he is smart enough to have probably figured out by now that he was wrong about those thoughts of not enough exposure...or rather exposure unintended.
    Funny enough, I do remember reading somewhere a while ago that Amare called Bosh a Soft PF and when asked who he thought was better between himself and Bosh, he laughed and said "Me of course". So Amare was honest enough to point that out. lol

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Bautista still isn't getting a lot of exposure. Toronto baseball games aren't being broadcasted by FOX - and haven't really been since Clemens was around in the mid-late 90's. Bautista hasn't getting any endorsement deals, at least not to my knowledge. You know what gets media exposure? Winning. And on a consistent basis.

    When Bosh was putting up his numbers, he was still getting his respect due in terms of making all-star teams and was in local advertisements. Aside from the Jays own promo stuff, I haven't seen any Bautista promos - whether it be television, radio or print ads.
    Last edited by MangoKid; Tue Jul 5th, 2011 at 03:17 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Who's Chris Bosh?
    some Criss Angel groupie

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Bautista still isn't getting a lot of exposure. Toronto baseball games aren't being broadcasted by FOX - and haven't really been since Clemens was around in the mid-late 90's. Bautista hasn't getting any endorsement deals, at least not to my knowledge. You know what gets media exposure? Winning. And on a consistent basis.

    When Bosh was putting up his numbers, he was still getting his respect due in terms of making all-star teams and was in local advertisements. Aside from the Jays own promo stuff, I haven't seen any Bautista promos - whether it be television, radio or print ads.
    But thats up the Player whether they want to do 'Promos' or not. I wouldn't say that is the indication whether a player is respected and acknowledged by the Media as a great player. VERY few athletes get Lucrative Shoe contracts, or Deals of the Sort. If Jose keeps it up for this season and into next, I'd fully expect those to come to him. But because he is relatively new to the 'Big Name' world of Baseball, he is still fairly low on the pecking order. He's been a Super Star for ONE season. He needs to prove to be consistent.

    But the fact that 8 Million fans voted for him, IS an indication that his name is out there, and is getting the kind of publicity that it takes to draw that many fans. The fact that he ISN'T sponsored by Coke and Nike and Jordan, and yet is able to Set Voting records, is almost MORE proof that his recognition goes beyond traditional borders, and traditional Avenues of "exposure".

    And being played on FOX is not, in my opinion, an indicator of whether you've made it or not. While Vince was here, the Raptors MAYBE got 2 games of National Coverage a Year. MAYBE.

    American TV stations will NEVER choose to put a Toronto team over an American team unless they KNOW it will draw a huge, National, US wide audience, because they don't get half the viewership they normally would.
    If they broadcast a New York vs. Boston game, they get the Ratings (and Ad money) from both the viewership in NY and in Boston. With Toronto, they would only get the Numbers from the American based Audience. So it doesn't make sense for them to show a Toronto team.
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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    But thats up the Player whether they want to do 'Promos' or not. I wouldn't say that is the indication whether a player is respected and acknowledged by the Media as a great player. VERY few athletes get Lucrative Shoe contracts, or Deals of the Sort. If Jose keeps it up for this season and into next, I'd fully expect those to come to him. But because he is relatively new to the 'Big Name' world of Baseball, he is still fairly low on the pecking order. He's been a Super Star for ONE season. He needs to prove to be consistent.

    But the fact that 8 Million fans voted for him, IS an indication that his name is out there, and is getting the kind of publicity that it takes to draw that many fans. The fact that he ISN'T sponsored by Coke and Nike and Jordan, and yet is able to Set Voting records, is almost MORE proof that his recognition goes beyond traditional borders, and traditional Avenues of "exposure".

    And being played on FOX is not, in my opinion, an indicator of whether you've made it or not. While Vince was here, the Raptors MAYBE got 2 games of National Coverage a Year. MAYBE.

    American TV stations will NEVER choose to put a Toronto team over an American team unless they KNOW it will draw a huge, Nation audience, because they don't get half the viewership they normally would.
    If they broadcast a New York vs. Boston game, they get the Ratings (and Ad money) from both the viewership in NY and in Boston. With Toronto, they would only get the Numbers from the American based Audience. So it doesn't make sense for them to show a Toronto team.
    Sorry Joey, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

    While I do agree it is up to the player on whether or not they'd follow through with a promo, I'm sure if a company approached JoeyBats, he'd totally do it. No athlete really turns down exposure via promotional items and getting paid for it. I'm not even talking just about a lucrative shoe deal, I'm talking about any type of deal. Hell, DeRozan was doing promotional ads at the beginning of last season for Ford. Ricky Romero has an ad for Nike (very obscure, I've never seen it on the tube, I had to track it down online), and he's never been an all-star. But Bautista hasn't been shown any love locally via endorsement deals.

    Baseball fans are actually a smart bunch - they'll vote guys in if they are having a decent season. Toronto fans have stuffing the ballot boxes, and it hasn't been just in Toronto - but also across Canada and in latin countries as well. He's being recognized as having a good season, by making the ASG, but that's about it. Bosh put up some real stellar seasons in Toronto as well and got voted in once and other times was on the cusp of being voted in and fell just short, so it's not like fans aren't standing up and taking notice of players.

    A team being televised on Fox or ESPN Sunday night baseball is something the Jays used to be a regular on when they were winning back in the early 90s (they used to be featured on Saturday afternoon baseball on NBC in the mid-late 80s as well). When Vince was here, especially his first few seasons, NBC would televise games quite regularly on Sunday. They even got a chance to play on Christmas Day on a couple of occasions. That's good exposure.

    American TV stations would televise a game involving Toronto if they were winning on a consistent basis, and not like just finishing .500, I mean, if they went to the playoffs. I guarantee the year they make the playoffs, the next season, they'll have a game or two on national televison. Hell, Cincinnati, St. Louis and San Francisco all have multiple games televised on Sunday Night Baseball and all 3 metro areas combined have a smaller population than Toronto. So, really, Basutista's All-Star success hasn't proved Chris Bosh's exposure claims to be false. Once the Jays start making appearances (or AN appearance) in the playoffs, that will change.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    We should have another poll..."Do Raptor fans wish Chris Bosh (w/max. contract) were still on the team"?

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    [QUOTE=joey_hesketh;92739]One also has to keep in mind that what Jose Bautista is doing (and managed to do last year) is a pretty hefty feat. For any athlete, let alone a second-thought player in Toronto. For Chris Bosh to garner the same kind of attention (trying to even out the comparison), would require him to lead the League in Rebounds, and do so in a VERY convincing fashion.
    If we look at Kevin Love, he is probably the PERFECT comparison point for Bautista. He managed to garner ALOT of positive attention regardless of where he plays, how well his team is doing, or what his expectations were coming into the season.


    I totally agree with this comparison - and a lot of Bosh's production was a direct result of a rebounding and scoring void on the Raps. On Miami, his rebounding dropped 20% and as did his scoring by 25% with no change in minutes, once he was surrounded by quality players/scrubs in a blowout. Greatness is being the best among the best and he falls far short of this.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Dalex wrote: View Post

    I totally agree with this comparison - and a lot of Bosh's production was a direct result of a rebounding and scoring void on the Raps. On Miami, his rebounding dropped 20% and as did his scoring by 25% with no change in minutes, once he was surrounded by quality players/scrubs in a blowout. Greatness is being the best among the best and he falls far short of this.
    Bosh still put up some good numbers despite being a 3rd option on offense and playing next to one of the better rebounding guards in the league in Wade and one of the best rebounding 3's in the league in Lebron. You knew his numbers were going to take a dip but they weren't as bad as a lot of people figured they would be.

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