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Thread: Lets not get caught in the Jonas hype just yet.

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
    We should all celebrate that we drafter a rookie who plays in the euro league so that we can have some basketball to watch in the coming year.
    woot woot.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He's already shown NBA potential. Teams were trying to trade up and throwing around star names, such as the Spurs trying to move Tony Parker to get him. I don't remember anybody doing that for the Raptors' last center prospect, Andrea Bargnani in 2006. In fact Colangelo was on record then saying he tried to trade down but there weren't any takers offering legitimate value.
    Has their ever been a draft pick that didn't show NBA potential? If they didn't they wouldn't be drafted.

    The RUMOUR was that the spurs were trading up to draft him, that doesn't mean they were. A ton of rumours are spread as the draft approachs in hopes that teams may change their plans and someone will slip down, or will make a move up etc. They also, apparently, wanted to move Jeffersons contract... so was this that they wanted Jonas that bad, or that they thought they could start a retooling (ie. start dumping salaries)? Did Parkers comments have anything to do with it? Where they just gauging his trade value? Teaching him a lesson?

    Even moreso, almost every team would have traded up to draft Darko aswell (and I'm NOT saying Jonas is Darko), and he was the sure #2 pick after Lebron, that doesn't mean he is therefore good or will turn out good.

    I think the OP is right... expectations do need to be tempered. I think its great what he's doing, I think its great people want to support him and want to know how he's doing.... but this is a U19 tournament. Take it with a grain of salt, it doesn't hold much meaning.

    But then again this always happens after the draft. I not only remember summer league with Derozan and Sonny (last season) I remember right after he was drafted and people were talking how Derozan was the steal of the draft and would end up rookie of the year. I remember Bargnani being drafted and how the Raps had easily the best player in the draft and their next stud player. I know fans want to get excited about players and want to see them play and want them to be great... but young guys are young guys, no matter where they are from.

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    Raptors Republic Starter MyMomLovesMe's Avatar
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    Lets just put it this way.


    The #5 pick that we made, has now grown in value due to this tournament. One can't deny that, and there is certainly happiness to be had for that.

    Previous picks that dominated that competition included Bogut.

  4. #44
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    lets be thankful that the tournament happened after the draft :]

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    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Someone should do a comparison of Bogut's numbers in 03 to JV's numbers in this tournament.

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    Quote matt wrote: View Post
    Someone should do a comparison of Bogut's numbers in 03 to JV's numbers in this tournament.
    Bogut FIBA U19 Greece 2003: 33.6 MPG, 26.2 PPG, 17 RBG, 6.6 ORBG, 2.5 APG, 60.9% FG2P (58.6% FG), 38.5% FG3P, 74.3% FT, 1.5 BPG, 1.1 SPG, 3.3 TO, 2.2 PF in 8 games

    JV FIBA U19 Latvia 2011: 30 MPG, 23 PPG, 13.9 RBG 4.3 ORBG, 1 APG, 59.5% FG, 81.1% FT, 3.2 BPG, 0.9 SPG, 1.8 TO, 3.5 PF in 9 games

    I would rather JV's more efficient stat line tbh, higher percentage (total fg and ft) less minutes, (-3mins), double the blocks (3.2 to 1.5) Half the TO (1.8 to 3.3) and even played an extra game (40 mins). Assists is what Bogut can boast about, and something I would love JV to have more of.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Remember last year when Demar was killing it in Summer League, and some people were saying "Don't get to excited, it's only Summer League" ... In my opinion, this whole "Don't get excited, yet" attititude is for the people who aren't truly invested in the Raps as a team. Raptors fans should be excited, and should be happy about the way our Rookie is playing on a World Wide Stage. This is a legit World Championship, and seeing as I'm a fan of the game, and a fan of Jonas, then I will buy into the Hype.
    If you don't mind.
    I'm all in favor of people catching onto the hype, but if you're going to question my fandom and loyalty for the team because I'm managing my expectations, I think that's total bullshit.

  8. #48
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Has their ever been a draft pick that didn't show NBA potential? If they didn't they wouldn't be drafted.
    It's very clear what I was referring to when you don't take it out of context.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    The RUMOUR was that the spurs were trading up to draft him, that doesn't mean they were. A ton of rumours are spread as the draft approachs in hopes that teams may change their plans and someone will slip down, or will make a move up etc. They also, apparently, wanted to move Jeffersons contract... so was this that they wanted Jonas that bad, or that they thought they could start a retooling (ie. start dumping salaries)? Did Parkers comments have anything to do with it? Where they just gauging his trade value? Teaching him a lesson?
    What you are doing is speculating. What I did was repeat something that was coming from multiple sources. They weren't just looking to move up by trading with the Raptors either. When it was all said and done they couldn't move into the top ten and get the big man but still traded away a PG. The rumors about them going after JV made perfect sense. Duncan could retire at anytime and is a shadow of himself of offense. The rumors made sense.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Even moreso, almost every team would have traded up to draft Darko aswell (and I'm NOT saying Jonas is Darko), and he was the sure #2 pick after Lebron, that doesn't mean he is therefore good or will turn out good.
    You have nothing to back that up with. I remember clearly there was great criticism tossed the Pistons way by many in the media for passing on Carmelo Anthony, who had just carried a team to a championship in his freshman year. Beyond that, who knows where other teams had Darko on their draft boards. The Pistons had lots of talent at the time and at every positions. They were contenders and they felt that they could take a chance on a project. Many of the teams that followed might have been willing to take a shot at him too, who knows? I'm not going to speculate that every team in the draft was willing to cough up a star for Darko on 2003 draft night though.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I think the OP is right... expectations do need to be tempered. I think its great what he's doing, I think its great people want to support him and want to know how he's doing.... but this is a U19 tournament. Take it with a grain of salt, it doesn't hold much meaning.
    I find it funny how the people who are happy he performed well are being told to "take it with a grain of salt" when most of them are in fact "taking it with a grain of salt". It's ok to be happy for a player. It's ok to verbally express that satisfaction and most people doing just that have said nothing unrealistic. I don't see most suggesting he's the next superstar or anything remotely like that. I think people who aren't sold on the kid should be taking his struggles to come against grown men much older and developed than him in August "with a grain of salt".

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    But then again this always happens after the draft. I not only remember summer league with Derozan and Sonny (last season) I remember right after he was drafted and people were talking how Derozan was the steal of the draft and would end up rookie of the year.
    I remember that too but it wasn't the whole board. It was a very small percentage. Most people around here are realistic.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I remember Bargnani being drafted and how the Raps had easily the best player in the draft and their next stud player. I know fans want to get excited about players and want to see them play and want them to be great... but young guys are young guys, no matter where they are from.
    I remember there being far more skepticism about Bargnani being drafted #1 than JV going #5. I think most people in here know JV will be a work in progress. If they haven't been living under a rock for the past two months they've heard it spoken and seen it written many times. Colangelo had to reach for Bargnani because it was the guy he wanted and he couldn't find a good offer to trade down. Because of that he had to sell the pick much more. Even then he said Bargnani would take time but he sold the fans on some attributes that still aren't visible to this day. This is an entirely different situation now.

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I'm all in favor of people catching onto the hype, but if you're going to question my fandom and loyalty for the team because I'm managing my expectations, I think that's total bullshit.
    My post very clearly states this isn't about expectations.
    Or at least my argument isn't.

    I said this later on in the thread:
    But we're not saying he will dominate the NBA. We're simply enjoying his success RIGHT NOW, at this level.
    And thats what this is about. Its not about expectations. And I'm not questioning ones fandown or loyalty; I am questioning why said person wouldn't be happy and excited for a kid that just led his Nation to a big FIBA Championship. And did so in DOMINATING fashion. Again, this isn't about "He's dominated here, thus he will dominate the NBA." Its about "He dominated here, and he got the MVP and he DIDN'T suck and play at a mediocre level. He was THE BEST player in the WHOLE WORLD for this tournament."
    Thats exciting. Or should be. And if it isn't, then I don't understand that fans mindset. Thats all.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  10. #50
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    Default @ Garbagetime

    ".... but this is a U19 tournament. Take it with a grain of salt, it doesn't hold much meaning"


    "not much meaning"??? I fail to understand in context of:

    1. The Raptors 1st round pick is JV
    2. JV was the MVP of the just concluded Fiba world U19 tournament
    3. His team won the championship
    4. His stat line and intangibles were outstanding
    5. There were reports of N. American scouts extolling his perf. there

    ...and Raptor fans should not put much "meaning" in this?

    I am baffled. Isnt it just simply pleasurable? I dont think anyone is saying anything about his NBA career. The "meaning" I take away here is that he has more than confirmed his scouting reports as a very talented 19 yr. old. I prefer to look at his journey to the nba metaphorically as a series of steps and he has taken at least a couple here in a competition against his best peers. The pressure didnt get to him as a high draft pick. Next shall be @ Eurobasket which will probably be not statiscally gaudy (he'll be a backup). More important shall be his season in the Euroleague.

    Sorry, but there was "meaning" in his performance.

    I am curious...would you have had the same reaction if he had a bad tournament?

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    And thats what this is about. Its not about expectations. And I'm not questioning ones fandown or loyalty; I am questioning why said person wouldn't be happy and excited for a kid that just led his Nation to a big FIBA Championship.
    Except that's exactly what you questioned, by saying the following:
    "In my opinion, this whole "Don't get excited, yet" attitude is for the people who aren't truly invested in the Raps as a team."

    Who are you to question how invested I am in the team? On behalf of all those in favor of managing their excitement, we demand an apology.

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Its about "He dominated here, and he got the MVP and he DIDN'T suck and play at a mediocre level. He was THE BEST player in the WHOLE WORLD for this tournament."
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but out of all players in this tournament, Valanciunas was the highest player drafted in the 2011 NBA Draft. In fact I didn't see any other lottery pick playing in this tournament. Was there even a single player drafted in the first round playing in this tournament? If there was one, please correct me.

    (ie: anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster.).

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Thats exciting. Or should be. And if it isn't, then I don't understand that fans mindset. Thats all.
    I think you should spend less time worrying about other fans' mindset. That's their business, not yours. If you're interested, there are quite a few people judging others in this way, but they tend to congregate on RealGM.
    Last edited by ebrian; Mon Jul 11th, 2011 at 03:35 PM.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Who are you to question how invested I am in the team? On behalf of all those in favor of managing their excitement, we demand an apology.
    Not going to find one here.

    Who are you to tell me to "manage my excitement"?

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    (ie: anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster.).
    Agreed. But he didn't. And thus that is cause Happiness.
    So far we have avoided the 'Total Disaster' that many fans around here predicted. So far.

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I think you should spend less time worrying about other fans' mindset. That's their business, not yours. If you're interested, there are quite a few people judging others in this way, but they tend to congregate on RealGM.
    But this is a fan forum. Where opinions are discussed. I very clearly stated in your quote provided "In my opinion", and in my opinion his play at the U19 was exciting. And I don't see how it is not exciting for any fan of the Raptors. Thus, I question. In a public forum meant for questions.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Who are you to tell me to "manage my excitement"?
    Huh? When have I ever told anyone to behave a certain way?

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Agreed. But he didn't. And thus that is cause Happiness.
    So far we have avoided the 'Total Disaster' that many fans around here predicted. So far.
    And that's fine. Go ahead and celebrate. Just don't complain when others don't feel the same way, or insult them and act as if you're a better fan those who do not.

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    But this is a fan forum. Where opinions are discussed. I very clearly stated in your quote provided "In my opinion", and in my opinion his play at the U19 was exciting. And I don't see how it is not exciting for any fan of the Raptors. Thus, I question. In a public forum meant for questions.
    I'm pretty sure if you ask any of the moderators, their goal is to have discussion on the Raptors, not to judge eachother.

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Huh? When have I ever told anyone to behave a certain way?
    Okay, maybe not you, but others. Apologies.


    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    And that's fine. Go ahead and celebrate. Just don't complain when others don't feel the same way, or insult them and act as if you're a better fan those who do not.
    I'm not complaining. But when someone creates a thread stating his opinion as "Fans shouldn't get excited", then I have a right as a forum member and a fan, to state my opinion. And in my opinion, fans should get excited.

    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I'm pretty sure if you ask any of the moderators, their goal is to have discussion on the Raptors, not to judge eachother.
    Fair enough. But perhaps I felt like I was being judged for being a fan that is getting excited about a player that performed well. Perhaps I felt like I was being cast as a naive, ignorant fan, who only looks at stats and says "Success!", and doesn't consider the obvious steps JV still must take to be an impact player in the NBA.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but out of all players in this tournament, Valanciunas was the highest player drafted in the 2011 NBA Draft. In fact I didn't see any other lottery pick playing in this tournament. Was there even a single player drafted in the first round playing in this tournament? If there was one, please correct me.
    You seemed to be mightily impressed by Kemba's NCAA tournament despite not playing against one player who had been a lottery pick. Seems to me that you're being purposely obtuse about this.
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    It's very clear what I was referring to when you don't take it out of context.



    What you are doing is speculating. What I did was repeat something that was coming from multiple sources. They weren't just looking to move up by trading with the Raptors either. When it was all said and done they couldn't move into the top ten and get the big man but still traded away a PG. The rumors about them going after JV made perfect sense. Duncan could retire at anytime and is a shadow of himself of offense. The rumors made sense.



    You have nothing to back that up with. I remember clearly there was great criticism tossed the Pistons way by many in the media for passing on Carmelo Anthony, who had just carried a team to a championship in his freshman year. Beyond that, who knows where other teams had Darko on their draft boards. The Pistons had lots of talent at the time and at every positions. They were contenders and they felt that they could take a chance on a project. Many of the teams that followed might have been willing to take a shot at him too, who knows? I'm not going to speculate that every team in the draft was willing to cough up a star for Darko on 2003 draft night though.



    I find it funny how the people who are happy he performed well are being told to "take it with a grain of salt" when most of them are in fact "taking it with a grain of salt". It's ok to be happy for a player. It's ok to verbally express that satisfaction and most people doing just that have said nothing unrealistic. I don't see most suggesting he's the next superstar or anything remotely like that. I think people who aren't sold on the kid should be taking his struggles to come against grown men much older and developed than him in August "with a grain of salt".



    I remember that too but it wasn't the whole board. It was a very small percentage. Most people around here are realistic.



    I remember there being far more skepticism about Bargnani being drafted #1 than JV going #5. I think most people in here know JV will be a work in progress. If they haven't been living under a rock for the past two months they've heard it spoken and seen it written many times. Colangelo had to reach for Bargnani because it was the guy he wanted and he couldn't find a good offer to trade down. Because of that he had to sell the pick much more. Even then he said Bargnani would take time but he sold the fans on some attributes that still aren't visible to this day. This is an entirely different situation now.
    I'm not going to get into everything here but

    what context did I take it out of?

    And as for the spurs you are also speculating. Or do you have some inside source with the Spurs that gave you the direct scoop? Either that or you are taking what someone else apparently said and assuming its 100% accurate. All I was saying is we don't know for sure that the Spurs didn't have an alternate motive to the rumours. Getting Tony Parker's trade value also makes perfect sense (especially after his comments). So does wanting to dump Jeffersons contract. Its also not rare for teams to spread rumours so other players who they really want drop. They all make perfect sense. Hardly means ANY of them definitely happened. Also doesn't mean the Spurs definetely wanted Jonas or there wasn't other reasons why they could have wanted to deal up. We are both speculating... its pretty much what we all do around here is it not?

    I think ebrian said it best with Jonas and this tournament:

    "anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster"

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I think ebrian said it best with Jonas and this tournament:

    "anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster"
    So you think Patrick Young is a disaster? He's a probable top 10 pick who didn't dominate at all.

    Talk about getting your expectations too high.
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    How about when Jonathan Givony said that the Lithuanian team would dominate the NCAA tournament? So it could be argued this is a higher level of competition than the NCAA. Decent praise.

    EDIT: Just to elaborate, I don't think anyone on this board expects him to put up a 26-24 game in his 1st year in the NBA. But if I guy did that in the NCAA final four and Raptors drafted him you would be pretty excited right?
    Last edited by Employee; Mon Jul 11th, 2011 at 05:30 PM.
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    why did utah pass on jonas? that is what I would like to know

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    So you think Patrick Young is a disaster? He's a probable top 10 pick who didn't dominate at all.

    Talk about getting your expectations too high.

    my expectations with this tournament (and the players who play in it) are hardly high. If it wasn't for it being mentioned in every other new thread I wouldn't even think twice about it.

    Thinking Jonas should be alot better than a bunch of nobodies shouldn't be setting the bar very high for him.

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