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Thread: Lets not get caught in the Jonas hype just yet.

  1. #81
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    There were some young players. I can't name them all without looking it up, but e.g. Dario Saric, center for Croatia, is born on the 8th of April in 1994, so he was a young 17. He played a lot and good too, 4th in scoring, 3th in Rebouding.
    Thanks SE. Was looking for some Confirmation on that.
    I didn't spend too much time researching my point. As you can tell. haha
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Tossing out these general statements with no backing isn't furthering your stance. I can say "the moon is made of cheese and everyone knows it" but at the end of the day that doesn't make the moon made out of cheese.

    Suddenly we can't use opinion around here without having to prove it as if its fact? Get over yourself.

    As I told Tim, if you don't agree with me fine. By all means think this tournament is whatever you want to... I don't think this tournament means squat.

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Suddenly we can't use opinion around here without having to prove it as if its fact? Get over yourself.

    As I told Tim, if you don't agree with me fine. By all means think this tournament is whatever you want to... I don't think this tournament means squat.
    I don't think it's too much to ask for someone to backup their opinion a little. Otherwise, you just get people spouting off anything. That's not much fun. In fact, there's a lot of people around here who find that kind of annoying. I mean, one of the things we do around here is debate things. Without backing up your argument, you're not debating. You're just pontificating.

    It's fine if you have an opinion about something. But if you state and can't back it up, then you are going to get jumped on, and rightfully so.
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Suddenly we can't use opinion around here without having to prove it as if its fact? Get over yourself.

    As I told Tim, if you don't agree with me fine. By all means think this tournament is whatever you want to... I don't think this tournament means squat.
    Regarding the U19 tournament I get you don't think it means squat - that is fine.

    Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the NCAA season play, conference tournaments, or Final 4 tournament? Do those competitions means squat as well?

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Regarding the U19 tournament I get you don't think it means squat - that is fine.

    Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the NCAA season play, conference tournaments, or Final 4 tournament? Do those competitions means squat as well?
    NCAA season > Euroleague Season > all tournaments

    I probably could give general decending order for tournament(s) (especially limited by age) but for ease of argument they all fit in the "don't mean squat" category. The "good players" excelling in them should be expected. If they don't, there should be some concern about those players.

    But in general I'm just not a "draft pick" kinda guy. I put little faith in what these guys do until I see them step on the NBA court. Although just like anyone else there are guys I like more than others (and no doubt I'm wrong just as often as I'm right).

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    NCAA season > Euroleague Season > all tournaments

    I probably could give general decending order for tournament(s) (especially limited by age) but for ease of argument they all fit in the "don't mean squat" category. The "good players" excelling in them should be expected. If they don't, there should be some concern about those players.

    But in general I'm just not a "draft pick" kinda guy. I put little faith in what these guys do until I see them step on the NBA court. Although just like anyone else there are guys I like more than others (and no doubt I'm wrong just as often as I'm right).
    The ranking you have is interesting. I don't necessarily agree but that is your opinion of course. Thanks for the reply.

    In the end there might be correlations but I agree none of it means squat until they compete in the NBA. For every Darko there is an Adam Morrison. Success in whatever 'feeder' does not necessarily mean success in the NBA.

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    NCAA season > Euroleague Season > all tournaments

    I probably could give general decending order for tournament(s) (especially limited by age) but for ease of argument they all fit in the "don't mean squat" category. The "good players" excelling in them should be expected. If they don't, there should be some concern about those players.

    But in general I'm just not a "draft pick" kinda guy. I put little faith in what these guys do until I see them step on the NBA court. Although just like anyone else there are guys I like more than others (and no doubt I'm wrong just as often as I'm right).
    Wow, you put the NCAA above the Euroleague? That's stupid, you just seem extremely uneducated about basketball on a world scale. Basketball doesn't start and end in America.

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    Quote thatguythere wrote: View Post
    Wow, you put the NCAA above the Euroleague? That's stupid, you just seem extremely uneducated about basketball on a world scale. Basketball doesn't start and end in America.
    Well ... for some reason the NBA calls the champion the champion of the world. I remember Popovic questioning this a couple of years ago. But apparently, for some (including some in charge), it does start and end in America.

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    NCAA season > Euroleague Season > all tournaments

    I probably could give general decending order for tournament(s) (especially limited by age) but for ease of argument they all fit in the "don't mean squat" category. The "good players" excelling in them should be expected. If they don't, there should be some concern about those players.

    But in general I'm just not a "draft pick" kinda guy. I put little faith in what these guys do until I see them step on the NBA court. Although just like anyone else there are guys I like more than others (and no doubt I'm wrong just as often as I'm right).
    You admit you're not a "draft pick" guy, and don't seem to have a great grasp of the prospects, yet you seem to have a pretty strong opinion of what matters and what doesn't. This seems kind of like the guy who says he doesn't understand science, but thinks global warming is bogus because it's cold outside. He's more than welcome to his opinion, but if he's going to say it out loud, he better be ready to either defend it or feel the backlash of those who do know more about it than he does.
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Well ... for some reason the NBA calls the champion the champion of the world. I remember Popovic questioning this a couple of years ago. But apparently, for some (including some in charge), it does start and end in America.
    Actually, the NBA, I believe, now calls them the NBA Champions. Some teams have World Champions on their banner, but the Spurs are one of the teams that don't.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Actually, the NBA, I believe, now calls them the NBA Champions. Some teams have World Champions on their banner, but the Spurs are one of the teams that don't.
    So, adding the world champion is a team decision and not a league decision? I did not know that.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You admit you're not a "draft pick" guy, and don't seem to have a great grasp of the prospects, yet you seem to have a pretty strong opinion of what matters and what doesn't. This seems kind of like the guy who says he doesn't understand science, but thinks global warming is bogus because it's cold outside. He's more than welcome to his opinion, but if he's going to say it out loud, he better be ready to either defend it or feel the backlash of those who do know more about it than he does.
    why don't I have a great grasp of prospects? because I actually admit I'm wrong at times (which seems to be a rare thing for some), or because I don't agree with you? That hardly means I don't watch, or know whats going on with these guys. As I said before, young guys are young guys.

    I really don't have "that strong of an opinion" on it. If you read back on my posts it was 1) a response to what I thought were inaccurate (or incomplete) comments by Apollo, 2) a mention to "take it with a grain of salt" (is that a "strong opinion"?), and 3) thinking with eBrian said it best that "anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster" (I thought, and always think, the exact same things with regards to all the initial top prospects going into the march madness by the way. It should never make a player, but it can always break a player.)

    It was you who dragged me in with the "high expectations" comment. Its my own fault for even responding to it, that I'll admit, but don't start telling me what or how strong my opinion is after it was your sarcasm and then later Apollo's comments that kept me in the conversation.

    Maybe go back and read all u19 threads... and then you'll see how "strong" my opinion is on it (actually I'll save you time, you won't see me involved in them).

    Finally, and I'll leave the conversation here in fear of getting to 'strongly' opinionated for your liking. The problem with your analogy Tim... is that the "backlash" is only coming from people who THINK they know more than I do only because their OPINION couldn't possibly be wrong. Atleast thatguythere doesn't mince words when he calls me stupid, it comes off alot less arrogant that way.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Well ... for some reason the NBA calls the champion the champion of the world. I remember Popovic questioning this a couple of years ago. But apparently, for some (including some in charge), it does start and end in America.
    Greg Popovich is my favorite personality in the NBA. He also has a different mindset than most jock Americans (or worldview) and very grounded intellectually. Here is a piece that speaks to this somewhat :

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/b...o-1102569.html

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    why don't I have a great grasp of prospects? because I actually admit I'm wrong at times (which seems to be a rare thing for some), or because I don't agree with you? That hardly means I don't watch, or know whats going on with these guys. As I said before, young guys are young guys.

    I really don't have "that strong of an opinion" on it. If you read back on my posts it was 1) a response to what I thought were inaccurate (or incomplete) comments by Apollo, 2) a mention to "take it with a grain of salt" (is that a "strong opinion"?), and 3) thinking with eBrian said it best that "anything short of playing at an extremely high if not dominating level would be a total disaster" (I thought, and always think, the exact same things with regards to all the initial top prospects going into the march madness by the way. It should never make a player, but it can always break a player.)

    It was you who dragged me in with the "high expectations" comment. Its my own fault for even responding to it, that I'll admit, but don't start telling me what or how strong my opinion is after it was your sarcasm and then later Apollo's comments that kept me in the conversation.

    Maybe go back and read all u19 threads... and then you'll see how "strong" my opinion is on it (actually I'll save you time, you won't see me involved in them).

    Finally, and I'll leave the conversation here in fear of getting to 'strongly' opinionated for your liking. The problem with your analogy Tim... is that the "backlash" is only coming from people who THINK they know more than I do only because their OPINION couldn't possibly be wrong. Atleast thatguythere doesn't mince words when he calls me stupid, it comes off alot less arrogant that way.
    From your comments, it seemed to me that you were saying that you don't pay that much attention to prospects, hence the "not a draft pick guy" comment. If you do pay attention to that sort of thing, then I apologize, but you might want to rethink some of what you say because I can't believe I'm the only one who misconstrued what you said.

    And if you don't have a strong opinion about it, then why bring it up at all and continue to respond? If I don't have a strong opinion about something, I usually just say that the other person might be right. Who knows? In other words, I don't feel a need to continue to debate it.

    And I have no problem with someone who doesn't agree with me, as long as their argument is logical and able to be backed up. You have stated several times that you didn't think much of the competition in the U19 tournament and even called the other players a "bunch of nobodies". What exactly did you base your opinion on? These are all very good players, some of the best in their age group in their country, and a number of which will probably end up being drafted. Just because you haven't heard of them most don't play in the NCAA doesn't mean they're nobodies. Did you read the link to the front page article? There were a number of good prospects in the tournament. How many good prospects are on the average NCAA team? Possibly one?

    If you want to say that nothing outside of the NBA proves anything, then you might have a point. Except that no one is saying Valanciunas' domination is proof of anything. It's a good indicator. Just as playing well in the NCAA is a good indicator. Loads of players have played well in college but done nothing in the NCAA. But when you look at HOW one plays, not just how well, then you get a better indication.

    Lastly, as others have pointed out, you seem to overvalue basketball played in the US over it played elsewhere. Do you really think the average NCAA team is better than the average Euroleague team? Then why don't more college players go over there and dominate? In fact few do.
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    So, adding the world champion is a team decision and not a league decision? I did not know that.
    Don't quote me on that, but I recall reading something about that a few years ago.
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Suddenly we can't use opinion around here without having to prove it as if its fact? Get over yourself.

    As I told Tim, if you don't agree with me fine. By all means think this tournament is whatever you want to... I don't think this tournament means squat.
    I'm sorry. I just thought someone who felt so strongly about a statement could support their opinion with at least something. Most people who state their opinion around here do explain why they feel the way they feel. It's why a lot of these threads are so long. I always find the "why" the most interesting question answered around here.

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    Let me try to sum up this thread without anyone hurting eachother's feelings anymore.

    1. Every fan has a right to their opinion. Let's not attack eachother's loyalty for the team. Obviously we all love the Raptors very much and want to see them do well.

    2a. One view is that JV's performance in this tournament is very encouraging. He dominated the tournament, that much has to be said. International ball has come a long way and he was the best out of the group that played in this tournament. There's a few future NBA prospects who played in this tournament and they weren't nearly as good as JV was.

    2b. One view is that JV's performance in this tournament means very little. He dominated a tournament in which he should have dominated, because as a pick from the 2011 NBA Draft, he should dominate anyone who wasn't drafted in that draft. Yes, there are some "future" prospects, but that is kind of like being impressed when a kid who failed grade 8 repeats the grade and then graduates at the top of his class. It's not that impressive, because he was supposed to be good.

    I don't think there is right answer here other than #1. Obviously if you value prospects like Lamb or Young or other Euro players, then JV really did outperform them and therefore 2a all the way. If you think Young and other Euros are flashes in the pan that are still a full year of college/international ball away from developing into legitimate prospects, then 2b is the way to go. It's really just a matter of perspective.

    Personally, I'm on the #1 and 2b side. I'm glad JV didn't fall flat on his face, but I really see this particular tournament as kind of a no-brainer. If there was another 2011 NBA Draftee in this draft to compare to, like let's say Derrick Williams played for Team USA and he sucked ass. Well, that would help as well in really determining how much of an impact this tournament should have on my view of our draft pick. Otherwise, all in all, so far so good for Toronto Raptors' future.
    Last edited by ebrian; Wed Jul 13th, 2011 at 01:46 PM.

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    Wasn't JV the top choice for the teams that leaned towards "analytics", and that was based on his performance in the euroleague league (where he played with men instead of boys, so the numbers still translated, enough to get noticed)?


    If anything this tournament already establishes what these analytics guys see, that this kid is very efficient with his time, size and position.

    As to how that will translate into the NBA, no one knows. There is also a possibility that he is a flop, I personally doubt that, but I will not stake anything on his success this early.
    Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Wed Jul 13th, 2011 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    2b. One view is that JV's performance in this tournament means very little. He dominated a tournament in which he should have dominated, because as a pick from the 2011 NBA Draft, he should dominate anyone who wasn't drafted in that draft. Yes, there are some "future" prospects, but that is kind of like being impressed when a kid who failed grade 8 repeats the grade and then graduates at the top of his class. It's not that impressive, because he was supposed to be good.

    I don't think there is right answer here other than #1. Obviously if you value prospects like Lamb or Young or other Euro players, then JV really did outperform them and therefore 2a all the way. If you think Young and other Euros are flashes in the pan that are still a full year of college/international ball away from developing into legitimate prospects, then 2b is the way to go. It's really just a matter of perspective.
    It wasn't like the kid who repeated grade 8 and the does well because most everyone else in the tournament was the same age as Valanciunas. Young is actually a couple of months OLDER than Valanciunas, and is pegged as a lottery pick in a draft much deeper than this one. Young not only didn't dominate, he wasn't one of the best players in the tournament, yet it's not raising a lot of red flags because there was a lot of talent in the tournament.

    It seems to me that a lot of the same people who wanted an NCAA player are the same ones who don't think much of the level of the tournament. I don't think that's a coincidence.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Don't quote me on that, but I recall reading something about that a few years ago.
    Seems you are right. Here is a discussion on the topic...

    http://www.spursreport.com/forums/sp...changed-2.html

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