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Thread: Sports Illustrated Top 20 Free Agents 2011: Raptors (Joeys) Likely Interest Level.

  1. #21
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    ...? "The new rules will be in place before you can sign anyone"... obviously. This was my point ... hence how the NEW rules would allow for cheaper Signing.
    The CBA evolves with the League Revenues year by year. By next year, Maximum Salaries will have already increased, as would the Incremental Pay Increases of Players already on Contract. So there are absolutely benefits to signing earlier.
    I don't follow you. We have no idea WHAT the new CBA will be like, but any increases in salaries will be marginal, and if they do increase, so will the cap, just like it has in the past. That's the whole idea. Besides, the Raptors will have less salary in the next offseason.

    But all that is probably the least reason not to sign someone this "summer". The other reasons I detailed are far better ones.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Probably, but they have a lot more talent than the Raptors do. A playoff team overpaying a player is a lot better than a lottery team doing it.
    Sometimes I think before you reply, you need to look at the context. Read what I wrote and what I was responding to. It takes like 10 seconds.

  3. #23
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Sometimes I think before you reply, you need to look at the context. Read what I wrote and what I was responding to. It takes like 10 seconds.
    I did before I replied. Maybe next time you type something make sure it will be construed the way you want it to. It takes like 5 seconds.
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    Ok, fair enough.
    Yet it has been reported and documented that the Raptors are pursuing Free Agent Centers.

    So obviously they are at least interested in looking into using Cap Space to sign someone.
    Its clearly being discussed at the very least.

    Whether or not you believe we should sign anyone at all, is a little different.
    This is based off the fact that there is obvious Interest, and willingness, to use the Cap Space available to us to Sign a FA.

    I'm not sure why signing a 23/24 year Old Small Forward/Center who has OBVIOUS potential to be great, would be a bad thing.
    Yes, it hinders our chances of being horrible, and getting a draft pick ... that we would subsequently use to draft a young Small Forward / Center, who's potential and skillset are completely unproven.

    Especially considering that we would potentially get him at Bargain price compared to what it might cost us down the line to acquire an equal talent, that will likely be 26-27 years old at the time of signing.
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    As long as Val can be a player at the nba level (even if it takes a couple of seasons) we have a lot of value at the forward spots. If we buy into the touted belief that next years draft has more than its fair share of quality talent at the SF spot we are in much better shape NOT doing a whole lot this year.


    PG: Bayless gets one year to show us that he can sustain his good play from the end of last season more consistently and be a starting point guard.
    SG: Barbosa is on an expiring contract which could be shipped to a team that needs cap space during the season, or leaves cap space next summer if he's not traded. Weems has one year and europe to give his head a shake and we can probably sign him as a cheap back up to demar
    SF: I just don't see the point of signing a SF. Kleiza is still healing and JJ showed decent chops. We are going to have lots of pieces that we can use in a TRADE in the next year or two, plus we can draft one next year as well.
    Forwards: I'd put Davis and Amir up against any 2 man PF rotation in the league. Even if we don't have enough minutes for Amir Davis Bargs and Val whoever is the odd man out will be able to bring us return.

    We have an expiring this year
    an expiring next year
    bayless has a 4 mill QO next year

    we are in really good shape right now and signing a free agent, unless its somebody CHEAP just doesn't make a lot of sense. If our guys develop just a little bit more, which seems like a very reasonable expectation, we will be a much more attractive destination 2 years from now. We may have to overpay for a free agent but it makes more sense to wait a year or two so we have a better idea of where we need to spend.
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  6. #26
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Ok, fair enough.
    Yet it has been reported and documented that the Raptors are pursuing Free Agent Centers.

    So obviously they are at least interested in looking into using Cap Space to sign someone.
    Its clearly being discussed at the very least.

    Whether or not you believe we should sign anyone at all, is a little different.
    This is based off the fact that there is obvious Interest, and willingness, to use the Cap Space available to us to Sign a FA.

    I'm not sure why signing a 23/24 year Old Small Forward/Center who has OBVIOUS potential to be great, would be a bad thing.
    Yes, it hinders our chances of being horrible, and getting a draft pick ... that we would subsequently use to draft a young Small Forward / Center, who's potential and skillset are completely unproven.

    Especially considering that we would potentially get him at Bargain price compared to what it might cost us down the line to acquire an equal talent, that will likely be 26-27 years old at the time of signing.
    I think the Raptors most definitely need to look at free agent centers, or else either Davis, Amir or Alabi will be the starting center. I just don't think the Raptors should be looking at guys like Gasol or Jordan. If the Raptors can get a guy like Pryzbilla or Jeff Foster, then I that would be perfect. They are a stopgap solution at center until Valanciunas can start there, they won't cost a lot of money, and they won't demand a lot of minutes, so it won't be a problem at all moving them to the bench.

    I think before any money is spent on free agents, though, the Raptors need to figure out what they can get for Bargnani. If they can get a draft pick for next year and a serviceable center, then they don't have to go out and get anyone. Thats money they can use later when it can be better spent.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I did before I replied. Maybe next time you type something make sure it will be construed the way you want it to. It takes like 5 seconds.
    So you understood this time, right? Why make a post about it? A mistake is a mistake.. no need to be so petty.

    I'd like us to sign a C for the next 3-4 years. A 4 year deal would be the most ideal -- 3 years of starting and then hopefully your guy takes over, and we have ourselves a nice expiring contract to work with. That would be the ideal situation. Younger the better if only because I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket in case JV is terrible, but if I'm wrong, then at least it's an expiring contract that other teams will actually be interested in acquiring (as opposed to a 36 year old Przybilla).

    But absolutely agree on not overpaying for a guy. As much as I dislike the pick, we have to at least give the guy a shot and it makes no sense paying $10M for a player who is relegated to the bench like a Bargnani (who SHOULD be coming off the bench).
    Last edited by ebrian; Tue Jul 12th, 2011 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Sigh..I can never spell Przybilla's last name correctly.

  8. #28
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I'd like us to sign a C for the next 2-3 years. A 4 year deal would be the most ideal.
    I'm not sure i agree. I think that a rotation of Bargs Amir Davis at 28-30 minutes a game with alabi getting 6-12 will be good enough to get us through next season (if there is one). If you add a Center how many minutes are you expecting to give him? I'd be okay with getting another body, and i agree that cheap value is better than expensive value at this point. But it would have to be with the understanding that they are behind bargs davis amir (and then val when he gets here) in terms of minutes. Not sure you can convince anyone decent to come here in that situation. I think we just need to add a body as insurance and length of contract doesn't need to be more than 1 w/ a team option for year 2.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors most definitely need to look at free agent centers, or else either Davis, Amir or Alabi will be the starting center. I just don't think the Raptors should be looking at guys like Gasol or Jordan. If the Raptors can get a guy like Pryzbilla or Jeff Foster, then I that would be perfect. They are a stopgap solution at center until Valanciunas can start there, they won't cost a lot of money, and they won't demand a lot of minutes, so it won't be a problem at all moving them to the bench.
    Pryzbilla or Jeff Foster..? I'm not even sure either Jeff Foster or JP count as a 'Stopgaps'.
    They'll be 35 and 32 years old and played a combined 30 mins a game last year while Starting 12. Combined.

    I'd rather just put Alabi in there and admit we're looking to Tank.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think before any money is spent on free agents, though, the Raptors need to figure out what they can get for Bargnani. If they can get a draft pick for next year and a serviceable center, then they don't have to go out and get anyone. Thats money they can use later when it can be better spent.
    You think we can trade an Un-Servicable Center, for a Servicable Center AND a draft pick in one of the Top Drafts ever?
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    At what position does this club say we are set with a championship caliber player and we have no need to trade or acquire a FA for that spot? There isn't one.
    If the objective is to improve at every position there is no time like the present to get started and I would always acquire the best player available. That means better competition from within which is one of the keys to developing the potential in younger players.

  11. #31
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Pryzbilla or Jeff Foster..? I'm not even sure either Jeff Foster or JP count as a 'Stopgaps'.
    They'll be 35 and 32 years old and played a combined 30 mins a game last year while Starting 12. Combined.

    I'd rather just put Alabi in there and admit we're looking to Tank.
    They were injured last season, but hopefully you get the gist of what I am saying. A veteran who will come cheaply, can defend his position, rebound and can play 20 mpg at a fairly decent level. And he can be a veteran presence for Alabi and Valanciunas when he comes. Someone the guys can play against in practice and maybe learn a few tricks. Plus, he's not going to demand big minutes down the road.

    Just off the top of my head, guys like Jamaal Magloire, Erick Dampier, Dan Gadzuric etc. Big men have a longer shelf life than smaller players, so I wouldn't be too worried about age, with one of these guys.

    Throwing Alabi in there for 20-25 mpg is probably not a good idea at this point. I don't think it would do him any favours.

    You think we can trade an Un-Servicable Center, for a Servicable Center AND a draft pick in one of the Top Drafts ever?[/QUOTE]

    I think the Raptors need to find out what they can get for him before they start spending money. Maybe they can package a couple of players, who knows. Maybe they can work out a three way. The point is that it's a good idea to find out if you NEED to spend money on a position you might be able to get without spending money.
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure i agree. I think that a rotation of Bargs Amir Davis at 28-30 minutes a game with alabi getting 6-12 will be good enough to get us through next season (if there is one). If you add a Center how many minutes are you expecting to give him? I'd be okay with getting another body, and i agree that cheap value is better than expensive value at this point. But it would have to be with the understanding that they are behind bargs davis amir (and then val when he gets here) in terms of minutes. Not sure you can convince anyone decent to come here in that situation. I think we just need to add a body as insurance and length of contract doesn't need to be more than 1 w/ a team option for year 2.
    Oh okay, well I mean 4 years if there IS a season, and 3 years if there isn't. Even if JV is ready to be starter in 2 years, you still need someone to play between 15-20 minutes, and I think it's a gamble to rely on Alabi as that guy. Oh, I guess I should also clarify that Bargnani needs to be traded. My mindset is that he's already gone, but unfortunately mind is not over matter in this case. He is a $10M player who should not be playing more than 20 minutes per game because he's really that bad at everything else. I don't want this to become another Bargs thread though, so I'll end there. I'll even add Bargnani in the breakdown to confuse the Bargnani lovers.

    So here's the (minutes) breakdown:

    C: FA (28), Bargnani {10}, Alabi (10), Davis (10),
    PF: Bargnani {30}, Davis (25), Johnson (23)

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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    At what position does this club say we are set with a championship caliber player and we have no need to trade or acquire a FA for that spot? There isn't one.
    If the objective is to improve at every position there is no time like the present to get started and I would always acquire the best player available. That means better competition from within which is one of the keys to developing the potential in younger players.
    Fully agree j bean.
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    A lot of the opinions are probably different because they have a different outlook on the best way to build the team.

    Let me position myself:

    - No tanking for the sake of tanking. If you just want to tank to get the highest draftpick you will lose a lot in terms of developing the talent already there. Btw if that was the plan, we could have kept Triano.

    - Start teaching (and playing the right way)!
    --- Get some veterans who can be extra coaches, as well on the court as in the dressingroom and in the training. For that purpose (and others) I'd be very high on Battier (if he would want to play here). Lots of games we were all over the court (in a bad way) with our defense. If we don't start improving on this all the wrong patterns and instincts will not only not be changed but imprinted even more, making it even harder to improve the defense the next year. For example: we NEED DD to improve defensively to make an impact in the long run. Good veteran defenders could really help with this.
    --- Don't get hang up on accountability alone. You want your players to want to play the right way without looking over their shoulders all the time when they make a mistake. If they are committed to playing the right way, you'll have to allow them to make mistakes. Accountability (in terms of of playing time - which is punishment) is only one element of teaching and there are lots of players for whom benching isn't effective at all. The same goes for better competition from within. Some players are more sensitive than others and need trust more than competition and fear of losing a starting job or playing time. It can be a usefull element but that differs from player to player.
    --- Create a balanced team so you can play the right way. Even if the overall talent level won't be as high as you'd want, playing the right way allows the team to learn how to play the right way and develop the players the right way. For that purpose the most important additions to the team (in my opinion) would be a defensive center and some perimeter defenders who can hit the threepoint shot (players like Bowen; like ... not him of course, Battier).

    - Stay flexible financially. As long as we don't know what our core will be in the long run making big or semi-big free agency signings doesn't seem wise to me. If we get a lottery pick next year (and that's very likely) we should grab the best player available. Looking at the mockdrafts chances are that's going to be a sf or pg. If that's a sf I wouldn't want money invested in Jeff Green. That way we'll have money to invest in our worst positions once we'll have a better look at the core longterm. Otherwise we could have e.g. a better backup at the center position than at the starting pg or sf position.

    So I would not want to sign Gasol or Jeff Green or any of the younger available (semi) high level talent who won't come cheap and will need longterm contracts. Cheap young talent (like Bayless and James Johnson) is ok; if they don't pan out they don't hurt the flexibility that much.

    I do want a stopgap at center (I'm working under the assumption - which not everyone share - that Bargnani will be kept and will not start at center as Casey said); someone who plays defense, can do some damage around the rim and has hustle and energy. Foster would be ok for me as would Gadzuric. They will be cheap and won't complain about playing time (as I'd top them out at 20 minutes a game and let the others fill in the other minutes at center; I think Johnson might be able to play as a backup center).

    I also want a veteran small forward who can defend and preferably shoot the three. (If don't we get more threepoint shooting from the guard positions we really need this.

    I do not want to make big changes to the guard positions unless we can really upgrade without hurting us in our flexibility. Of course I'd make exceptions for players like Chris Paul, but you know ... We got a good ballhandler whose contract expires after 2012/13 giving us flexibility from thereon forward and we got a player in Bayless who might or might not improve. I'd say we let him play and if he will not become good enough to start he might become a nice sixth man. We can let him walk after 2012/13 too if we'd want.
    Last edited by Soft Euro; Tue Jul 12th, 2011 at 05:39 PM.

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    I really don't know where Dan Gadzuric is coming from. The last time he played more than 20 mins a game, it was 2004. And it was the ONLY time he played more than 20 minutes a game. What makes you think after getting 12, 11, 10, 14, 10 minutes a game respectively for the last however many seasons, NOW he is ready to step in and be a leader at one of the most important spots on the floor for a young, growing team.
    Yes, he will be cheap. You are right about that, but thats all he will be.
    Again, I think if you give Alabi the minutes that Gadzuric is going to play, he will be just as effective.
    Dans stats don't argue otherwise.

    Magloire? Really? I mean it'd be cool because he's Canadian and all ... but .. Really?
    See my above comment about Alabi and Gadzuric.

    You think Dampier is going to leave Miami for Toronto?
    And .. still ... Dampier wouldn't be anywhere near my top choice.


    I am however, fully in favor of bringing in Battier, Soft Euro. Not sure he'd be interested in coming here. But thats neither here nor there. haha
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Jul 12th, 2011 at 08:48 PM.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I really don't know where Dan Gadzuric is coming from. The last time he played more than 20 mins a game, it was 2004. And it was the ONLY time he played more than 20 minutes a game. What makes you think after getting 12, 11, 10, 14, 10 minutes a game respectively for the last however many seasons, NOW he is ready to step in and be a leader at one of the most important spots on the floor for a young, growing team.
    Yes, he will be cheap. You are right about that, but thats all he will be.
    Again, I think if you give Alabi the minutes that Gadzuric is going to play, he will be just as effective.
    First of all, Gadzuric is Dutch (like me) and I'd like to have the only dutchman left (Elson seems out) in the NBA with the Raptors. So that's a big reason for me plugging him
    But besides that, I always liked his game and think it would suit what the Raptors need. In what he does well, he's generally been very effective if you look at per 36 stats. You can say that he only plays defense (except if you count offensive rebounds and putbacks); so if we'll keep Bargnani and start him at PF and start someone else at center it should be someone in that category (or pay up). Our starting center does not need to be a 'starting center' caliber player and do all things well. Unless the coaching staff and management thinks that Alabi can become a good player in this league (which I don't, but I can't really make a good judgement about it) I'd rather have them bring in a veteran for some more veteran defensive leadership which we don't have at all (as in zero, nada). Also, 15-20 minutes would be enough for our new starting center when we get a cheap veteran.

    By the way, I'd thought 'let me look up some nice Gadzuric videos on Youtube,' but the first highlight that came up was about him having problems getting his shoe on...

  17. #37
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I really don't know where Dan Gadzuric is coming from. The last time he played more than 20 mins a game, it was 2004. And it was the ONLY time he played more than 20 minutes a game. What makes you think after getting 12, 11, 10, 14, 10 minutes a game respectively for the last however many seasons, NOW he is ready to step in and be a leader at one of the most important spots on the floor for a young, growing team.
    Yes, he will be cheap. You are right about that, but thats all he will be.
    Again, I think if you give Alabi the minutes that Gadzuric is going to play, he will be just as effective.
    Dans stats don't argue otherwise.

    Magloire? Really? I mean it'd be cool because he's Canadian and all ... but .. Really?
    See my above comment about Alabi and Gadzuric.

    You think Dampier is going to leave Miami for Toronto?
    And .. still ... Dampier wouldn't be anywhere near my top choice.


    I am however, fully in favor of bringing in Battier, Soft Euro. Not sure he'd be interested in coming here. But thats neither here nor there. haha
    Gadzuric is a decent backup, which is what the Raptors need. Same for Magloire and Dampier (who probably won't be re-signed by the Heat). You don't WANT someone who will need to play more than 15-20 mpg, because when Valanciunas comes next year he'll be lucky to get half that. Look at Kurt THomas on Chicago. At 38 years old he stepped in and started at center for half the season on the leagues top team. If he plays next season, he'll probably average 10 mpg.

    As for bringing in Battier, it's a nice idea, but how many minutes is he going to play, and what happens next year if the Raptors end up drafting a SF, which is the most likely scenario? You'r going to have to overpay Battier to get him to Toronto, then after a season, you're going to stick him on the bench and ask him to play 20 mpg, while making starter money? What's the point in that?
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    I'm thinking that we are in more need of a SF filler for the next season. Until Kleiza comes back from injury, whenever that is, we basically only have James Johnson at the 3. If JuJu isn't coming back, then I think we should target a defensive 3 that can also provide leadership (as mentioned, Battier). Assuming Battier would likely opt for a championship-contender, who would we consider?
    Tayshaun?
    Maurice Evans?
    Yi Jianlian (gasp)?
    Kirilenko?

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    I didn't see your post before I made mine Tim.. do you think bringing a guy like JuJu back on the cheap would be more worthwhile if we do, in fact, draft a SF?

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    Quote JYFelony wrote: View Post
    I didn't see your post before I made mine Tim.. do you think bringing a guy like JuJu back on the cheap would be more worthwhile if we do, in fact, draft a SF?
    I agree that he SF position is probably one they need to fill out, since James Johnson is pretty much the only SF on the roster who will be ready to play. Of course, if the season doesn't start until January or later, then that point is moot, since Kleiza should be ready to return. Even still, I'd rather bring back Wright than sign a guy like Prince or Kirilenko, both of which you'll have to pay starter money to in order to sign.
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