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Thread: ESPN Insider: Five lottery-to-playoffs acquisitions

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Default ESPN Insider: Five lottery-to-playoffs acquisitions

    I know this has been talked about ad nauseum, but I thought I'd share it:

    Already this offseason, ESPN Insider has looked at NBA teams that could make a leap forward next year and those headed downward in the standings. Now we're considering the issue from a different perspective. What moves might teams make -- or not make -- that could cause them to head one direction or the other? After looking at possible scenarios that could spell trouble for five teams on Monday, we take the optimistic perspective with teams that could make moves to improve.
    Toronto Raptors: Signing Tyson Chandler

    The task for new Raptors coach Dwane Casey is simple in theory but difficult in execution: fix a defense that ranked dead last in the league on a per-possession basis last season. Already Casey has suggested that Andrea Barganani will be moving from the center position, for which he was unfit, to power forward.

    Toronto needs a defensive anchor in the middle, and the veteran Chandler -- who Casey coached as an assistant in Dallas before getting promoted -- would be a perfect fit, giving the team not only length at the position but also rebounding to make up for Bargnani's poor work on the glass.

    Of course, the Raptors thought they were getting Chandler last summer, when the Charlotte Bobcats nixed a proposed deal at the last minute. Instead, Chandler ended up getting traded to the Mavericks, where he peaked at the right time and raised his value during Dallas' run to the championship. Now he is arguably the top prize on the free-agent market, which will make it difficult for Toronto to outbid other suitors.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I feel dirty saying this but at this stage of our development getting into the playoffs would be a mistake
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Not to mention dropping serious coin on a guy as inconsistent as Chandler.
    @jerboat

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    Rename thread to lottery-to-mediocrity acquisitions.
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    Signing Chandler is small short term gain for large long term loss.

    First, I don't think Chandler beside Bargnani is going to make a huge difference. Yes the team won't be as bad as this year (assuming he stays healthy), but it won't be that much better as to make this team more than a one and done team for (at best) a couple years. Bringing in Chandler 1) assumes that Bargnani is Dirk-like, which has been shown a hundred different times in a hundred different way is not true. 2) Chandler plays to his team. His best years were with hard working quality players on a team that had high expectations for themselves. When his teams were young, inexperienced and not going anywhere, he played down to their level. I honestly don't expect him to be as successful playing in Toronto as he did in Dallas or with the Hornets.

    Secondly, these moves just mean less playing time for Ed and Amir, who should be the two PFs this team is moving forward with.

    Finally, costing this team a better pick in the near future is a waste. While I'm rarely high on picks, I'd much rather have a 1-5 pick than a 10-18 pick any day of the week.

    If, for some crazy reason, this team is (relatively) successful next season and it looks as if they may be able to make some noise... then grabbing Chandler (or a Chandler like player) closer to the deadline is probably a smart move. But as things stand, it should be trade Bargnani and stay the course. This team is still lacking too much in terms of real talent and experience to add any short term solutions.

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    *sigh* yeah, just unnecessary...I'm not even sure it would stunt our internal development that much, but man, we do not need to take on a big contract. He also gets frequent nagging injuries, has been inconsistent (as GarbageTime mentions, he often plays worse on bad teams), and last year was the first 70+ game season he played in 3 years. I think Chandler was huge for Dallas this year, but that was on a good team. He's not a stalwart big man who clogs up the paint. He's only twice managed to average >10 rpg, and never averaged 2 blocks, which at his length and athleticism is almost a crime. And don't talk to me about minutes, because if you play well you get minutes. He is not in any way an upgrade over Amir or Ed other than height. You could say experience, but other than last year he's done very little to show he's learned anything, and it's hard to tell how much of that last year was because of the team he was on.

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    I like the idea of grabbing a guy like Chandler, but not until after we score big in the 2012 draft. Can't keep losing forever. With Jonas, Derozan, Davis and a 2012 top 5 pick on board, and a host of other decent young prospects, chances are good someone out of that group emerges as an alpha dog, and solid vets will be a must.

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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    I like the idea of grabbing a guy like Chandler, but not until after we score big in the 2012 draft. Can't keep losing forever. With Jonas, Derozan, Davis and a 2012 top 5 pick on board, and a host of other decent young prospects, chances are good someone out of that group emerges as an alpha dog, and solid vets will be a must.
    You'd add Chandler on top of Davis, Amir and Valanciunas? Because you don't want any of the big men to play more than 25 mpg?
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    At still only 28 years, and arguably just as injury prone as Amir; I think I'd take Chandler over Amir.
    If only for experience and Veteran leadership.

    (If we're to choose between picking up Chandler, or keeping all of our 3 Bigs.)
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    At still only 28 years, and arguably just as injury prone as Amir; I think I'd take Chandler over Amir.
    If only for experience and Veteran leadership.

    (If we're to choose between picking up Chandler, or keeping all of our 3 Bigs.)
    As injury prone as Amir??? Amir's only had one season where he was injured, this past one, and he only missed 10 games. How exactly is as injury prone as a guy who has missed, on average, 16 games a season because of injury in his 10 seasons? And while Chandler is a better player now, after 10 years in the league and not exactly an ironman, he's probably going to start declining. Amir's 24 and while he's been in the league 6 years, he doesn't have a lot of mileage on him. Add the fact that Chandler doesn't tend to do well on bad teams, I really don't know why you'd want him, especially over Amir.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I really don't know why you'd want him, especially over Amir.
    "for experience and Veteran leadership." -joey_hesketh
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    "for experience and Veteran leadership." -joey_hesketh
    I don't think Chandler is worth the twice as much money as you'd pay for Amir, especially considering you'd be purchasing a declining asset who's never performed well on bad teams, and has struggled throughout his career to remain healthy. Not when Amir has a very good long term contract, is only 24 and is just about as productive as Chandler is right now.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't think Chandler is worth the twice as much money as you'd pay for Amir, especially considering you'd be purchasing a declining asset who's never performed well on bad teams, and has struggled throughout his career to remain healthy. Not when Amir has a very good long term contract, is only 24 and is just about as productive as Chandler is right now.
    Ok, but you once again ignore my point that this team needs guys with Experience on winning teams, and it needs veterans who are not afraid to call guys out and ensure that Dwane Casey is being heard and listened too. To help make sure that EVERYONE on the team is buying into the defensive scheme that is layed out, and understands where they need to be.

    Chandler is an infinitely hard worker and great communicator on defense.
    These guys need to see how its done properly, and they need to see it from someone that has helped their team win.

    Having a voice, and presense, like Chandler in the locker-room goes far beyond numbers on the court.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Depends on how long we would want him around, and for what price. I think he would be a good mentor to JV, but we would likely have to overpay, as always. The best thing about him is that he brings the defensive attitude that Casey will be pushing. Having a veteran leader that has already bought into a system, that has proven to be effective could be a huge boost for our young guys.

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    Chandler wants to get paid. He loves to win but with the new CBA, he wants to get his second fat paycheque. I hope Toronto isn't the team to get him and ruin our development. JV in 2012 is a good direction. Getting Chandler is yet another attempt to deal with Bargnani's deficiencies. I'm tired of this argument and since JV's drafting, Tyson Chandler or another defensive big to pair with the Big Pasta never crosses my mind anymore.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    waste of time and money. and if casey is going to move bargnani to the PF position then i'm going to be pissed off big time. Why move bargs to the PF and let him eat up all of Ed's and Amir's playing time. I say trade him the first chance u get

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    waste of time and money. and if casey is going to move bargnani to the PF position then i'm going to be pissed off big time. Why move bargs to the PF and let him eat up all of Ed's and Amir's playing time. I say trade him the first chance u get
    +1

    If Bargagni is a power forward, we have three of them: Ed, Amir and Andrea. Both Ed and Amir are superior to Andrea for that role, in terms of potential, advanced stats, rebounding, and willingness to go out and work and get the job done. Andrea may have talent, but we haven't been able to get the best out of him: let's trade him to a team that will.

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    Quick fix = FAIL. We need to get a high lotto pick next draft or this team is doomed to usher in another decade mediocrity.

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    Chandler's played 74, 51 and 45 games respectively over the past few seasons. He'll be 29 (or possibly 30 if we lose an entire year to the lockout) when he suits up for his next game, and you can make the argument that he has a few more miles on him that you average 29 year old player considering he came straight from high school.

    Throughout his entire career, you can make a connection between Chandler's personal output and his team's record. When things are going good, like they did in Dallas this season, you get a fully engaged Chandler who is intense and brings it every night. On teams that are not doing so well, his production drops off. Let's not forget that Chandler averaged 6 points and 6 rebounds per night on a lousy Charlotte team only a year ago. Six and Six!! I don't care how good he was in Dallas last season, giving a guy that type of money when he's a season removed from that kind of stinkjob is setting money on fire.

    From the big picture view, signing Chandler won't turn us into contenders, and I'm not sure that it even puts us in the playoffs. All it does is drop our chances of getting a high draft pick next season while burning up any financial flexibility that we had going forward. It's simply not the right time to add this type of player, especially at the cost.

    All in all, I'd hate the move. Absolutely hate it.

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    Default Chandler

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Chandler's played 74, 51 and 45 games respectively over the past few seasons. He'll be 29 (or possibly 30 if we lose an entire year to the lockout) when he suits up for his next game ....
    I'm not sure why the age 30 is considered (by some) with such distaste. Ask these guys what they think of that:

    Dallas Mavericks

    • Brian Cardinal -> 34 years old
    • Brendan Haywood -> 31
    • Jason Kidd -> 38
    • Shawn Marion -> 33
    • Dirk Nowitzki -> 33
    • Deshawn Stevenson -> 30
    • Peja Stojakovic -> 34 (contributed 20% of made 3 pointers)
    • Jason Terry -> 33 years old


    As Joey H said, experienced veterans (especially those with an attitude) are ideal for a young team like the Raptors - otherwise they develop bad habits. In the end, that concept of a mediocrity team - a concept we abhore - morphs into reality.

    Unlike many, I believe the goal for this year's team is to make the play-offs. It may be an outside shot - depending on the CBA & this season's schedule - but the fact is, until we get into the play-offs, we'll always have a hard time attracting quality players into the fold. And we'll have a harder time keeping who we have.
    .

    I hate tanking, implied or allowed. It fosters bad relations, reckless habits, and player indifference. Losers play to lose, Winners - as Charlie Sheen might shout - are WINNING.

    Chandler could be an classic example of the change that occurs for a player who brings something to his team - moving from an organization that was indifferent, to a team that WANTED to win.
    .

    As Davis & Jonas have illustrated, getting a quality player later on than "expected", is entirely possible. This next draft will have all those players who "held off" in 2011, plus all those expected to make the jump in 2012. That has to make the next draft well stocked - and featuring quality that goes beyond just the first 10 or so players.

    I've heard that the 2012 draft will feature an abundance of PG's and SF's, two positions for which the Raptors have to address. If Toronto doesn't get one (or both) in the 2012 draft, I'm sure the number of free agents (at these positions) will offset any misses we make.
    .

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