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  • #31
    joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Great post. Fully agree.

    I posted a video of Carter lighting it up in the Playoffs one year for us.
    You can SEE how much fun they are having on the court. I haven't seen that in a LONG time.
    Once you start winning, even a little bit, everything else becomes second-priority.
    The young guys will CRAVE it once they've had a taste. It will only make them work harder, knowing they have a shot.
    And these guys actually LIKE it here. I think. Lets not run them out of town by "Holding out for draft picks."

    All this "we'll miss out on a draft pick if we suddenly turn out to be not-so-bad" is silly, in my opinion. Draft picks are nice, but look at teams like Minni and LA and Golden State and Charlotte. You can spend a LOONG time in the Lottery and not have a whole lot to show for it.
    If you just want to make the playoffs, then you might as well ditch the young guys and go and grab veterans. If you not just want to make the playoffs but be able to become a true contender, you need to make sure you have to have the right foundation.

    Colangelo tried to hold onto Bosh by trying to keep the team's head above water by doing exactly what you're suggesting they do now. It didn't keep Bosh because the Raptors ended up being a mediocre team and Bosh knew it.

    Players don't want to go on mediocre teams, even if they are playoff teams. They want to be on teams they know have the potential to be a true contender.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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    • #32
      There is really only one veteran free agent that I'd like the Raptors to go after if you are looking for someone that has the 'leadership' quality and can be an extension of the coach, but still not cause us to become mediocre and that's Shane Battier.

      Ultimately I don't see him coming since I can see him wanting to go to a contender. But that guy is a hard worker and bleeds defense.

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      • #33
        I get the veteran leadership argument. Heck I even posted a thread about 2 months ago, arguing that we should pursue Prince or Battier if we can get them on the CHEAP and that's my problem with Chandler, he is anything but cheap and we have a lot of quality at 4-5 spots now (if you believe that Bargs/Davis/Alabi) can hold down the C spot until JV shows up). I don't have a problem picking up a veteran small forward (if mo pete doesn't retire maybe bring him in as a back up?) since it won't cut into anyone's playing time. BUT I can't see playing ANYONE 5+ mill a year this year or next year. 2013 is the year I want to spend money
        "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

        "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

        "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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        • #34
          Yes I agree that veteran leadership is good for our team(defensive one that is) but definitely not Chandler. And I can't understand how the odd man out for most of you huys is always Amir. I am sorry but WTF..? Amir is still young and with more potential than Chandler has ever had,works very hard regardless of team record,opponent and comes a lot cheaper. Yes he can't really give you veteran leadership but if you want to take someone out of the roster from our "maybe" trio at pf of Amir,Bargnani and Davis it isn't Amir. I completely agree about Prince or Battier. I like both of them very much,they are hard working veterans with a lot of experience and class. That is what you want as veteran leadership - not Chanlder for that much money. If we were 45 wins team the last 2-3 years then yes Chandler might be your guy. But not now. Not after 22 wins,after drafting J. Valanciunas and dealing with lockout and after chanlder's contract year. There are too many examples to show it that is not a good idea for a team like us now.

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          • #35
            footarez wrote: View Post
            Yes I agree that veteran leadership is good for our team(defensive one that is) but definitely not Chandler. And I can't understand how the odd man out for most of you huys is always Amir. I am sorry but WTF..? Amir is still young and with more potential than Chandler has ever had,works very hard regardless of team record,opponent and comes a lot cheaper. Yes he can't really give you veteran leadership but if you want to take someone out of the roster from our "maybe" trio at pf of Amir,Bargnani and Davis it isn't Amir. I completely agree about Prince or Battier. I like both of them very much,they are hard working veterans with a lot of experience and class. That is what you want as veteran leadership - not Chanlder for that much money. If we were 45 wins team the last 2-3 years then yes Chandler might be your guy. But not now. Not after 22 wins,after drafting J. Valanciunas and dealing with lockout and after chanlder's contract year. There are too many examples to show it that is not a good idea for a team like us now.
            Ya, I don't understand those who say that Amir is the odd man out. This is a guy who was the team's most productive player, and who had the most positive impact on the team of anyone on the roster, when he was on the floor, he's only 24 and he's got a VERY good contract. It boggles my mind when people say that you trade him. He's a guy you keep.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            • #36
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              Ya, I don't understand those who say that Amir is the odd man out. This is a guy who was the team's most productive player, and who had the most positive impact on the team of anyone on the roster, when he was on the floor, he's only 24 and he's got a VERY good contract. It boggles my mind when people say that you trade him. He's a guy you keep.
              Well for me he is odd-man out between Jonas, Ed and Amir. Not Bargs, Ed and Amir.
              I'm at the point where I just assume Bargs is out of the equation. Perhaps I should have clarified.

              This shouldn't, and hopefully doesn't, imply that I'm not a HUGE Amir fan. Because I am. And have argued quite adamently with those who say he isn't worth his contract. I'm simply saying, that Keeping Ed and Jonas are no-brainers. And picking up a Defensive Anchor from a Championship team should also be a no-brainer. At the right price. I have never supported these $10M-$15M numbers people are throwing out for Chandler. But like I've said in the past, I don't see a whole lot of $15M contracts given to ANYONE with the new CBA.

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              • #37
                joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                Well for me he is odd-man out between Jonas, Ed and Amir. Not Bargs, Ed and Amir.
                I'm at the point where I just assume Bargs is out of the equation. Perhaps I should have clarified.

                This shouldn't, and hopefully doesn't, imply that I'm not a HUGE Amir fan. Because I am. And have argued quite adamently with those who say he isn't worth his contract. I'm simply saying, that Keeping Ed and Jonas are no-brainers. And picking up a Defensive Anchor from a Championship team should also be a no-brainer. At the right price. I have never supported these $10M-$15M numbers people are throwing out for Chandler. But like I've said in the past, I don't see a whole lot of $15M contracts given to ANYONE with the new CBA.
                I absolutely LOVE a rotation of Valanciunas, Davis and Amir. You can play any combination, and all defend, rebound, and score efficiently (assuming that Valanciunas scores similarly as he does in Europe). You can play each one 30 mpg and still have a few minutes to throw at Alabi. The Raptors frontcourt is the absolute last thing they need to worry about.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • #38
                  joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  Well for me he is odd-man out between Jonas, Ed and Amir. Not Bargs, Ed and Amir.
                  I'm at the point where I just assume Bargs is out of the equation. Perhaps I should have clarified.

                  This shouldn't, and hopefully doesn't, imply that I'm not a HUGE Amir fan. Because I am. And have argued quite adamently with those who say he isn't worth his contract. I'm simply saying, that Keeping Ed and Jonas are no-brainers. And picking up a Defensive Anchor from a Championship team should also be a no-brainer. At the right price. I have never supported these $10M-$15M numbers people are throwing out for Chandler. But like I've said in the past, I don't see a whole lot of $15M contracts given to ANYONE with the new CBA.
                  If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out. A rotation of JV,Ed and Amir and Alabi or whoever is very good.Which makes even more sense that Bargnani is the odd man out....always
                  When you have those pieces why would you pay more money to someone like Chandler which is a bit risky.For leadership? Chandler the leader and the role model? I can't buy that..literally. There is absolutely no point to take Chandler now. Raptors are not gonna be champions next year. How many games is he going to help us win? 10 more? And what?We get worse pick and we maybe improve as a team. There is no guarantee that we will. No, I don't think that is the answer for Raptors.
                  My opinion is to build the team now from the pieces we have -without Bargnani. We can develop Demar,Davis,Amir and Bayless and they could become a pretty good team. If/when that happens then it makes sense to get someone like Chnadler. I don't see Dwight or CP3(just examples ) coming here next year so we have to build from what we have and add pieces from the draft.
                  When we drafted Ed Davis last year nobody thought that now most would class him as our future guy.

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                  • #39
                    footarez wrote: View Post
                    If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out. A rotation of JV,Ed and Amir and Alabi or whoever is very good.Which makes even more sense that Bargnani is the odd man out....always
                    When you have those pieces why would you pay more money to someone like Chandler which is a bit risky.For leadership? Chandler the leader and the role model? I can't buy that..literally. There is absolutely no point to take Chandler now. Raptors are not gonna be champions next year. How many games is he going to help us win? 10 more? And what?We get worse pick and we maybe improve as a team. There is no guarantee that we will. No, I don't think that is the answer for Raptors.
                    My opinion is to build the team now from the pieces we have -without Bargnani. We can develop Demar,Davis,Amir and Bayless and they could become a pretty good team. If/when that happens then it makes sense to get someone like Chnadler. I don't see Dwight or CP3(just examples ) coming here next year so we have to build from what we have and add pieces from the draft.
                    When we drafted Ed Davis last year nobody thought that now most would class him as our future guy.
                    I think both of those statements are incredibly important.

                    "If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out"

                    I agree, but my concern here is I don't think he is out of the equation, atleast not yet. If BC's and the organizations moves/statements lately (or history for that matter) tell me anything, its that he is still a big part of this team future. I very much hope I'm off here, but it sure seems to me that BCs mistakenly thinks he can build a team 'Dallas' style team. If that is the case, one of Amir and Ed will be the odd man out (no matter how much they shouldn't be)

                    "My opinion is to build the team now from the pieces we have -without Bargnani"

                    I can't agree more with this. I know alot of people think that Bargnani could be an asset as a scoring punch off the bench. I don't disagree with that, but the issue is with then paying him 10+ mil a year (increasing) in that role. Thats a huge hit to the teams salary cap (especially if there are significant changes with the new CBA). Its a big salary eating away at funds that this team will need to use for future top calibre players and useful peices. (whether thats someone on this team who's contract comes due or someone yet to be here). There is no doubt this team still needs a player with 'star' quality, and the team is going to have to pay them.

                    The other option is starting him at PF but that leads to 2 more deserving players who should have an increasing role (Amir and Ed) having a reduced role. It also means paying another player to play C until Jonas both gets here and matures (assuming that will take a couple years). And this idea all assumes that Andrea can/will get better or more productive by playing PF, which in and of itself is a HUGE assumption to make.

                    Unless Casey has a magic touch and can somehow recreate Bargnani (and history seems to have shown us that no one short of God can change him... and even then he has his work cut out for him), this team is better served without Andrea on it. In ANY way shape or form. His role has to be reduced in order for him to be more useful (less useless), and a reduced role only makes his contract more difficult to burden.

                    Even beyond that I think eliminating Andrea adds a significant 'culture' shift to this team, and this team desperately needs that shift.

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                    • #40
                      GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                      I think both of those statements are incredibly important.

                      "If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out"

                      I agree, but my concern here is I don't think he is out of the equation, atleast not yet. If BC's and the organizations moves/statements lately (or history for that matter) tell me anything, its that he is still a big part of this team future. I very much hope I'm off here, but it sure seems to me that BCs mistakenly thinks he can build a team 'Dallas' style team. If that is the case, one of Amir and Ed will be the odd man out (no matter how much they shouldn't be)
                      I think there have been a lot of signs that Bargnani is on his way out. I listed a lot of them here:
                      http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...s-of-bargnani/

                      Then he goes out and gets Casey, a defensive coach and drafts Valanciunas.

                      I don't buy the argument that Colangelo hired Casey to hide Bargnani like he was able to do with Dirk, mainly because Dirk is not a liability on defense like Bargnani is, and I'm pretty sure Colangelo and Casey know this. Dirk isn't a good defender, but he's not a bad one. And he's a pretty decent team defender.

                      There are far better reasons to keep Davis and Amir than Bargnani. Davis was a gift in the draft and might have more potential than any other current Raptor (not including Valanciunas). Amir was just signed to an incredibly good contract and has four more years left.

                      The worst argument I've heard for keeping Bargnani and trading Amir or Davis is that they have more trade value. Of course they have more trade value. They're more productive players with more potential. That doesn't mean you trade them. That means you keep them and trade the guy who isn't as good for the team. It's like if you're redoing your living room. You don't sell the nicest furniture because you'll get the most for it. You sell the stuff you don't want and keep the best stuff.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #41
                        For the record, Amir's contract isn't "really good". It's reasonable. He'll be making $7 million a year by the time his contract expires which is honestly a bit on the high side for what he is right now - which is a serviceable big man off the bench who brings a lot of effort and efficiency.

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                        • #42
                          Fully wrote: View Post
                          For the record, Amir's contract isn't "really good". It's reasonable. He'll be making $7 million a year by the time his contract expires which is honestly a bit on the high side for what he is right now - which is a serviceable big man off the bench who brings a lot of effort and efficiency.
                          For a young athletic, hustling, rebounding, defensive and incredibly efficient offensive big man, it is a very good contract. It's not great, but for a guy who helps his team win as much as he does, it's very good.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                          • #43
                            I guess it all boils down to what your definition of "very good" is. For me personally, a very good contract is one that actually underpays a player for what they provide. At $5-7 million dollars a season, that's not Amir Johnson.

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                            • #44
                              Fully wrote: View Post
                              I guess it all boils down to what your definition of "very good" is. For me personally, a very good contract is one that actually underpays a player for what they provide. At $5-7 million dollars a season, that's not Amir Johnson.
                              I think Amir was underpaid for what he produced this past season. Just looking at PER, he is above average, yet received a below average salary.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                              • #45
                                PER can be a bit misleading. Like I said, it all depends on what you consider is a "really good salary". In my opinion, Amir was adequately compensated at $5 million this year but he's not exactly a steal.

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