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Thread: ESPN Insider: Five lottery-to-playoffs acquisitions

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Ok, but you once again ignore my point that this team needs guys with Experience on winning teams, and it needs veterans who are not afraid to call guys out and ensure that Dwane Casey is being heard and listened too. To help make sure that EVERYONE on the team is buying into the defensive scheme that is layed out, and understands where they need to be.

    Chandler is an infinitely hard worker and great communicator on defense.
    These guys need to see how its done properly, and they need to see it from someone that has helped their team win.

    Having a voice, and presense, like Chandler in the locker-room goes far beyond numbers on the court.
    The thing you're missing is that Chandler is not an "infinitely" hard worker. He's a front runner.

    Did he play his ass off this year? Absolutely. He was also surrounded by a great team and was playing for millions upon millions of dollars in his next deal. When he hasn't been motivated financially or on a great team he's been average at times and flat out poor at others.

    Letting yourself get caught up in one single season (especially in a contract year) rather than looking at Chandler's entire body of work is exactly how some of these ridiculous contracts get handed out.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Jul 21st, 2011 at 01:29 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    The thing you're missing is that Chandler is not an "infinitely" hard worker. He's a front runner.

    Did he play his ass off this year? Absolutely. He was also surrounded by a great team and was playing for millions upon millions of dollars in his next deal. When he hasn't been motivated financially or on a great team he's been average at times and flat out poor at others.

    Letting yourself get caught up in one single season (especially in a contract year) rather than looking at Chandler's entire body of work is exactly how some of these ridiculous contracts get handed out.
    I'm most certainly NOT caught up in one year .... If you look, last year wasn't even his best year. I wanted him long before last year. I wanted him the year before he went to Charlotte. I wanted him while he was leading New Orleans to the Playoffs.
    He was EXACTLY what New Orleans needed to go from Mediocre to SOLID/ Division Champs.

    The season you point you (6 and 6) is so very clearly an outlier, compared to his overall body of work, thats its pretty silly of you to even use it as a point of emphasis. He was very seriously injured that year, with Ankle and Back problems.

    He's averaged 9rbs and 8pts with 1.5blks throughout his career.
    If he can stay healthy, he'll give you the numbers.

    But I'm mostly just looking for him to be an extension of Coach Casey. Which I know is a huge part of what Young Teams need to get to the next step. Proper guidance from someone whos been there.

    And ONCE AGAIN, you guys are completely ignoring my point about Veteran Leadership and Quality experience.
    This is NOT all about numbers.
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  3. #23
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm most certainly NOT caught up in one year .... If you look, last year wasn't even his best year. I wanted him long before last year. I wanted him the year before he went to Charlotte. I wanted him while he was leading New Orleans to the Playoffs.
    He was EXACTLY what New Orleans needed to go from Mediocre to SOLID/ Division Champs.

    The season you point you (6 and 6) is so very clearly an outlier, compared to his overall body of work, thats its pretty silly of you to even use it as a point of emphasis. He was very seriously injured that year, with Ankle and Back problems.

    He's averaged 9rbs and 8pts with 1.5blks throughout his career.
    If he can stay healthy, he'll give you the numbers.

    But I'm mostly just looking for him to be an extension of Coach Casey. Which I know is a huge part of what Young Teams need to get to the next step. Proper guidance from someone whos been there.



    And ONCE AGAIN, you guys are completely ignoring my point about Veteran Leadership and Quality experience.
    This is NOT all about numbers.
    How is his season with the Bobcats a "very clear outlier" when his best year of 11.8ppg and 11.7rpg is actually farther away from his career averages than his season in Charlotte?

    2001-02: 6.1 ppg, 4.8 rpg
    2003-04: 6.1 pg, 7.7 rpg
    2005-06: 5.3 ppg, 9 rpg

    There's three seasons that are all in the ballpark of the season I referenced in Charlotte.

    And even if I was to give him the absolute benefit of the doubt and assume that he would hit his career averages every year in Toronto, when did averages of 9 and 8 mean that you're a $15 million dollar per year player? He's scored in double digits twice in his career and only toppled 10 rebounds per game twice as well. He hasn't averaged more than 1.2 blocks per game in the last four seasons, when defense is supposed to be his calling card. I can go on.


    Finally, I really think you're overstating his "leadership" qualities. I don't mean to absolutely crap on the guy but he played on a team with Kidd, Dirk, and Jason Terry this season. He may have done a lot of "rah-rahing" when the camera was on him but he was far from the leader of the Mavs. He was probably fifth on the team's totem pole when it came to leadership.

    And has he ever shown any of these qualities prior to this season? No! He hasn't. In fact, you can make the case that it's been quite the opposite. Like it's been said many times, the guy has a history of playing up or down to the roster around him, which isn't the type of behavior that springs to mind when I hear the terms "infinitely hard working", "veteran leadership" and "quality experience".

    PS - I just saw your sig. The irony.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Jul 21st, 2011 at 03:22 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Chandler's played 74, 51 and 45 games respectively over the past few seasons. He'll be 29 (or possibly 30 if we lose an entire year to the lockout) when he suits up for his next game ....
    I'm not sure why the age 30 is considered (by some) with such distaste. Ask these guys what they think of that:

    Dallas Mavericks

    • Brian Cardinal -> 34 years old
    • Brendan Haywood -> 31
    • Jason Kidd -> 38
    • Shawn Marion -> 33
    • Dirk Nowitzki -> 33
    • Deshawn Stevenson -> 30
    • Peja Stojakovic -> 34 (contributed 20% of made 3 pointers)
    • Jason Terry -> 33 years old


    As Joey H said, experienced veterans (especially those with an attitude) are ideal for a young team like the Raptors - otherwise they develop bad habits. In the end, that concept of a mediocrity team - a concept we abhore - morphs into reality.

    Unlike many, I believe the goal for this year's team is to make the play-offs. It may be an outside shot - depending on the CBA & this season's schedule - but the fact is, until we get into the play-offs, we'll always have a hard time attracting quality players into the fold. And we'll have a harder time keeping who we have.
    .

    I hate tanking, implied or allowed. It fosters bad relations, reckless habits, and player indifference. Losers play to lose, Winners - as Charlie Sheen might shout - are WINNING.

    Chandler could be an classic example of the change that occurs for a player who brings something to his team - moving from an organization that was indifferent, to a team that WANTED to win.
    .

    As Davis & Jonas have illustrated, getting a quality player later on than "expected", is entirely possible. This next draft will have all those players who "held off" in 2011, plus all those expected to make the jump in 2012. That has to make the next draft well stocked - and featuring quality that goes beyond just the first 10 or so players.

    I've heard that the 2012 draft will feature an abundance of PG's and SF's, two positions for which the Raptors have to address. If Toronto doesn't get one (or both) in the 2012 draft, I'm sure the number of free agents (at these positions) will offset any misses we make.
    .

  5. #25
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    experienced veterans (especially those with an attitude) are ideal for a young team like the Raptors - otherwise they develop bad habits. In the end, that concept of a mediocrity team - a concept we abhore - morphs into reality.

    Unlike many, I believe the goal for this year's team is to make the play-offs. It may be an outside shot - depending on the CBA & this season's schedule - but the fact is, until we get into the play-offs, we'll always have a hard time attracting quality players into the fold. And we'll have a harder time keeping who we have.
    Great post. Fully agree.

    I posted a video of Carter lighting it up in the Playoffs one year for us.
    You can SEE how much fun they are having on the court. I haven't seen that in a LONG time.
    Once you start winning, even a little bit, everything else becomes second-priority.
    The young guys will CRAVE it once they've had a taste. It will only make them work harder, knowing they have a shot.
    And these guys actually LIKE it here. I think. Lets not run them out of town by "Holding out for draft picks."

    All this "we'll miss out on a draft pick if we suddenly turn out to be not-so-bad" is silly, in my opinion. Draft picks are nice, but look at teams like Minni and LA and Golden State and Charlotte. You can spend a LOONG time in the Lottery and not have a whole lot to show for it.
    Last edited by Joey; Thu Jul 21st, 2011 at 02:28 PM.
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  6. #26
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    You do realize that you're actually helping my argument and not hindering it, right?

    Brendan Haywood - Here's a guy who had his best season in 2010 during a CONTRACT YEAR (sound familiar), received a big fat deal from the Mavs, then proceeded to show up to camp out of shape, lose his starting spot to Chandler and post career worsts in all categories despite being paid more money that he ever had before. And you posted this to make the case to sign Chandler?

    Peja Stojakovic - Peja signed a deal when he was 29 that would pay him 60 million over 5 seasons (sound familiar?), battled injuries over the next few years and saw his stats decline across the board. This season, he's been diminished to a one dimensional role player who got buried during the finals because he couldn't guard anyone, yet he still made $15 million (being roughly overpaid by $12 million or so)

    These two are literally the worst case scenarios for Chandler and yet you threw them up their with their ages like you had proven some unbelievable point. These guys prove exactly what I'm saying, that giving out big money deals to players who are on the back end of their careers is risky business... and those two didn't even have a history of injuries or front running the way Chandler does.

    The other names are mentioned so badly out of context that I don't even want to respond.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Jul 21st, 2011 at 03:30 PM.

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    I'm all for some veteran presence but I don't think Chandler is the guy you want around. Up until last year, he has never been a guy you would to bring in for "veteran leadership". It's crazy when you think about it, but with people comparing Chandler with JV. 2 years ago that would have been a damning comparison, not a good one.

    When I think of veteran leadership, I think of someone in the twilight of their careers who can provide more coaching than actual example. Someone like an Anthony Parker -- someone who has years of experience, but also someone who has played the game with humility and class. Sorry, but those are not characteristics I think of when someone mentions Tyson Chandler.

    Detroit is a good example of relatively young team that kept some older guys to provide "veteran experience and leadership". They did not do well this year, at all. In fact they were terrible, and pretty bad last year too. Look at the way things backfired with Rip Hamilton complaining about his playing time. Do you really want to pay Tyson Chandler $12M so that in 2 years, he starts complaining the same way as Hamilton, when we need to be giving minutes to JV to develop?
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    With JV on the way I'm not sure if Chandler is a wise long term investment unless Bargnani is heading out.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    But I'm mostly just looking for him to be an extension of Coach Casey. Which I know is a huge part of what Young Teams need to get to the next step. Proper guidance from someone whos been there.

    And ONCE AGAIN, you guys are completely ignoring my point about Veteran Leadership and Quality experience.
    This is NOT all about numbers.
    Disagreeing with you is not ignoring your point.

    You want to pay an injury prone player, who has never played well on a bad team, $10+ million a year so he can be an extension of the coach? That doesn't sound like money well invested. Especially for a lottery team. Veteran leadership is great, but not at that price.

    And many of us are not huge fans of Chandler, to begin with. He's only had one year where he's really been lauded for his veteran leadership, and there's no guarantee he would fill the same roll on the Raptors.

    One thing I don't like about signing him is that if he does have a major positive impact on the team on the floor, it actually might hurt the team in the long term by lessening the chance they will get a top 3 pick.

    The NUMBER ONE priority for this team is to acquire elite talent, of which they have none. Otherwise, no matter what veteran leadership they have, they will have a ceiling of a 2nd round team and that's it. They have some excellent young talent, but no potential elite talent. The most likely thing signing Chandler would do, would be to make the team mediocre, and haven't Raptor fans seen enough mediocrity to last them a lifetime?
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure why the age 30 is considered (by some) with such distaste. Ask these guys what they think of that:

    Dallas Mavericks

    • Brian Cardinal -> 34 years old
    • Brendan Haywood -> 31
    • Jason Kidd -> 38
    • Shawn Marion -> 33
    • Dirk Nowitzki -> 33
    • Deshawn Stevenson -> 30
    • Peja Stojakovic -> 34 (contributed 20% of made 3 pointers)
    • Jason Terry -> 33 years old


    As Joey H said, experienced veterans (especially those with an attitude) are ideal for a young team like the Raptors - otherwise they develop bad habits. In the end, that concept of a mediocrity team - a concept we abhore - morphs into reality.

    Unlike many, I believe the goal for this year's team is to make the play-offs. It may be an outside shot - depending on the CBA & this season's schedule - but the fact is, until we get into the play-offs, we'll always have a hard time attracting quality players into the fold. And we'll have a harder time keeping who we have.
    .

    I hate tanking, implied or allowed. It fosters bad relations, reckless habits, and player indifference. Losers play to lose, Winners - as Charlie Sheen might shout - are WINNING.

    Chandler could be an classic example of the change that occurs for a player who brings something to his team - moving from an organization that was indifferent, to a team that WANTED to win.
    .

    As Davis & Jonas have illustrated, getting a quality player later on than "expected", is entirely possible. This next draft will have all those players who "held off" in 2011, plus all those expected to make the jump in 2012. That has to make the next draft well stocked - and featuring quality that goes beyond just the first 10 or so players.

    I've heard that the 2012 draft will feature an abundance of PG's and SF's, two positions for which the Raptors have to address. If Toronto doesn't get one (or both) in the 2012 draft, I'm sure the number of free agents (at these positions) will offset any misses we make.
    .
    Veteran teams win. That's nothing new. Dallas is one of the most veteran teams in the league. They're also a team whose window was probably one year, the way the team is structured, now. Cuban was putting all his eggs in one basket. Thankfully for him it paid off. I'd rather look at the Thunder as an example. A young team that will continue to grow together and compete for the next ten years.

    Bad habits can form in players on bad teams. That is true. But that's why it's important to get the right types of players and coaches who will not accept this. You need self motivated players who will work hard and do anything it takes to win and succeed. And you need the right coaches who can show them how to win and succeed. Veteran players are nice, but far more important are the right coaches.

    As for making the playoffs, it's a nice idea, but do you think this team, as currently constructed, has the potential to be a contender? Without any elite talent? Getting quality players lower in the draft is certainly possible. Getting elite talent outside of the top 5 is nearly impossible. You'd be better off buying a lottery ticket.

    Making the playoffs next year would certainly give the Raptors a taste of winning, which is great, but without the talent to build on it, what's the point? Milwaukee made the playoffs last season, but didn't have the talent to build on it. Same with Charlotte. Indiana is pretty much in the same boat.

    Before you send your boat out to sea, you need to make sure it's built properly to withstand the trip. Otherwise you'll be back on shore in no time in no better shape than you were before.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Great post. Fully agree.

    I posted a video of Carter lighting it up in the Playoffs one year for us.
    You can SEE how much fun they are having on the court. I haven't seen that in a LONG time.
    Once you start winning, even a little bit, everything else becomes second-priority.
    The young guys will CRAVE it once they've had a taste. It will only make them work harder, knowing they have a shot.
    And these guys actually LIKE it here. I think. Lets not run them out of town by "Holding out for draft picks."

    All this "we'll miss out on a draft pick if we suddenly turn out to be not-so-bad" is silly, in my opinion. Draft picks are nice, but look at teams like Minni and LA and Golden State and Charlotte. You can spend a LOONG time in the Lottery and not have a whole lot to show for it.
    If you just want to make the playoffs, then you might as well ditch the young guys and go and grab veterans. If you not just want to make the playoffs but be able to become a true contender, you need to make sure you have to have the right foundation.

    Colangelo tried to hold onto Bosh by trying to keep the team's head above water by doing exactly what you're suggesting they do now. It didn't keep Bosh because the Raptors ended up being a mediocre team and Bosh knew it.

    Players don't want to go on mediocre teams, even if they are playoff teams. They want to be on teams they know have the potential to be a true contender.
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    There is really only one veteran free agent that I'd like the Raptors to go after if you are looking for someone that has the 'leadership' quality and can be an extension of the coach, but still not cause us to become mediocre and that's Shane Battier.

    Ultimately I don't see him coming since I can see him wanting to go to a contender. But that guy is a hard worker and bleeds defense.

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    I get the veteran leadership argument. Heck I even posted a thread about 2 months ago, arguing that we should pursue Prince or Battier if we can get them on the CHEAP and that's my problem with Chandler, he is anything but cheap and we have a lot of quality at 4-5 spots now (if you believe that Bargs/Davis/Alabi) can hold down the C spot until JV shows up). I don't have a problem picking up a veteran small forward (if mo pete doesn't retire maybe bring him in as a back up?) since it won't cut into anyone's playing time. BUT I can't see playing ANYONE 5+ mill a year this year or next year. 2013 is the year I want to spend money
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    Yes I agree that veteran leadership is good for our team(defensive one that is) but definitely not Chandler. And I can't understand how the odd man out for most of you huys is always Amir. I am sorry but WTF..? Amir is still young and with more potential than Chandler has ever had,works very hard regardless of team record,opponent and comes a lot cheaper. Yes he can't really give you veteran leadership but if you want to take someone out of the roster from our "maybe" trio at pf of Amir,Bargnani and Davis it isn't Amir. I completely agree about Prince or Battier. I like both of them very much,they are hard working veterans with a lot of experience and class. That is what you want as veteran leadership - not Chanlder for that much money. If we were 45 wins team the last 2-3 years then yes Chandler might be your guy. But not now. Not after 22 wins,after drafting J. Valanciunas and dealing with lockout and after chanlder's contract year. There are too many examples to show it that is not a good idea for a team like us now.

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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Yes I agree that veteran leadership is good for our team(defensive one that is) but definitely not Chandler. And I can't understand how the odd man out for most of you huys is always Amir. I am sorry but WTF..? Amir is still young and with more potential than Chandler has ever had,works very hard regardless of team record,opponent and comes a lot cheaper. Yes he can't really give you veteran leadership but if you want to take someone out of the roster from our "maybe" trio at pf of Amir,Bargnani and Davis it isn't Amir. I completely agree about Prince or Battier. I like both of them very much,they are hard working veterans with a lot of experience and class. That is what you want as veteran leadership - not Chanlder for that much money. If we were 45 wins team the last 2-3 years then yes Chandler might be your guy. But not now. Not after 22 wins,after drafting J. Valanciunas and dealing with lockout and after chanlder's contract year. There are too many examples to show it that is not a good idea for a team like us now.
    Ya, I don't understand those who say that Amir is the odd man out. This is a guy who was the team's most productive player, and who had the most positive impact on the team of anyone on the roster, when he was on the floor, he's only 24 and he's got a VERY good contract. It boggles my mind when people say that you trade him. He's a guy you keep.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Ya, I don't understand those who say that Amir is the odd man out. This is a guy who was the team's most productive player, and who had the most positive impact on the team of anyone on the roster, when he was on the floor, he's only 24 and he's got a VERY good contract. It boggles my mind when people say that you trade him. He's a guy you keep.
    Well for me he is odd-man out between Jonas, Ed and Amir. Not Bargs, Ed and Amir.
    I'm at the point where I just assume Bargs is out of the equation. Perhaps I should have clarified.

    This shouldn't, and hopefully doesn't, imply that I'm not a HUGE Amir fan. Because I am. And have argued quite adamently with those who say he isn't worth his contract. I'm simply saying, that Keeping Ed and Jonas are no-brainers. And picking up a Defensive Anchor from a Championship team should also be a no-brainer. At the right price. I have never supported these $10M-$15M numbers people are throwing out for Chandler. But like I've said in the past, I don't see a whole lot of $15M contracts given to ANYONE with the new CBA.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Well for me he is odd-man out between Jonas, Ed and Amir. Not Bargs, Ed and Amir.
    I'm at the point where I just assume Bargs is out of the equation. Perhaps I should have clarified.

    This shouldn't, and hopefully doesn't, imply that I'm not a HUGE Amir fan. Because I am. And have argued quite adamently with those who say he isn't worth his contract. I'm simply saying, that Keeping Ed and Jonas are no-brainers. And picking up a Defensive Anchor from a Championship team should also be a no-brainer. At the right price. I have never supported these $10M-$15M numbers people are throwing out for Chandler. But like I've said in the past, I don't see a whole lot of $15M contracts given to ANYONE with the new CBA.
    I absolutely LOVE a rotation of Valanciunas, Davis and Amir. You can play any combination, and all defend, rebound, and score efficiently (assuming that Valanciunas scores similarly as he does in Europe). You can play each one 30 mpg and still have a few minutes to throw at Alabi. The Raptors frontcourt is the absolute last thing they need to worry about.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Well for me he is odd-man out between Jonas, Ed and Amir. Not Bargs, Ed and Amir.
    I'm at the point where I just assume Bargs is out of the equation. Perhaps I should have clarified.

    This shouldn't, and hopefully doesn't, imply that I'm not a HUGE Amir fan. Because I am. And have argued quite adamently with those who say he isn't worth his contract. I'm simply saying, that Keeping Ed and Jonas are no-brainers. And picking up a Defensive Anchor from a Championship team should also be a no-brainer. At the right price. I have never supported these $10M-$15M numbers people are throwing out for Chandler. But like I've said in the past, I don't see a whole lot of $15M contracts given to ANYONE with the new CBA.
    If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out. A rotation of JV,Ed and Amir and Alabi or whoever is very good.Which makes even more sense that Bargnani is the odd man out....always
    When you have those pieces why would you pay more money to someone like Chandler which is a bit risky.For leadership? Chandler the leader and the role model? I can't buy that..literally. There is absolutely no point to take Chandler now. Raptors are not gonna be champions next year. How many games is he going to help us win? 10 more? And what?We get worse pick and we maybe improve as a team. There is no guarantee that we will. No, I don't think that is the answer for Raptors.
    My opinion is to build the team now from the pieces we have -without Bargnani. We can develop Demar,Davis,Amir and Bayless and they could become a pretty good team. If/when that happens then it makes sense to get someone like Chnadler. I don't see Dwight or CP3(just examples ) coming here next year so we have to build from what we have and add pieces from the draft.
    When we drafted Ed Davis last year nobody thought that now most would class him as our future guy.

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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out. A rotation of JV,Ed and Amir and Alabi or whoever is very good.Which makes even more sense that Bargnani is the odd man out....always
    When you have those pieces why would you pay more money to someone like Chandler which is a bit risky.For leadership? Chandler the leader and the role model? I can't buy that..literally. There is absolutely no point to take Chandler now. Raptors are not gonna be champions next year. How many games is he going to help us win? 10 more? And what?We get worse pick and we maybe improve as a team. There is no guarantee that we will. No, I don't think that is the answer for Raptors.
    My opinion is to build the team now from the pieces we have -without Bargnani. We can develop Demar,Davis,Amir and Bayless and they could become a pretty good team. If/when that happens then it makes sense to get someone like Chnadler. I don't see Dwight or CP3(just examples ) coming here next year so we have to build from what we have and add pieces from the draft.
    When we drafted Ed Davis last year nobody thought that now most would class him as our future guy.
    I think both of those statements are incredibly important.

    "If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out"

    I agree, but my concern here is I don't think he is out of the equation, atleast not yet. If BC's and the organizations moves/statements lately (or history for that matter) tell me anything, its that he is still a big part of this team future. I very much hope I'm off here, but it sure seems to me that BCs mistakenly thinks he can build a team 'Dallas' style team. If that is the case, one of Amir and Ed will be the odd man out (no matter how much they shouldn't be)

    "My opinion is to build the team now from the pieces we have -without Bargnani"

    I can't agree more with this. I know alot of people think that Bargnani could be an asset as a scoring punch off the bench. I don't disagree with that, but the issue is with then paying him 10+ mil a year (increasing) in that role. Thats a huge hit to the teams salary cap (especially if there are significant changes with the new CBA). Its a big salary eating away at funds that this team will need to use for future top calibre players and useful peices. (whether thats someone on this team who's contract comes due or someone yet to be here). There is no doubt this team still needs a player with 'star' quality, and the team is going to have to pay them.

    The other option is starting him at PF but that leads to 2 more deserving players who should have an increasing role (Amir and Ed) having a reduced role. It also means paying another player to play C until Jonas both gets here and matures (assuming that will take a couple years). And this idea all assumes that Andrea can/will get better or more productive by playing PF, which in and of itself is a HUGE assumption to make.

    Unless Casey has a magic touch and can somehow recreate Bargnani (and history seems to have shown us that no one short of God can change him... and even then he has his work cut out for him), this team is better served without Andrea on it. In ANY way shape or form. His role has to be reduced in order for him to be more useful (less useless), and a reduced role only makes his contract more difficult to burden.

    Even beyond that I think eliminating Andrea adds a significant 'culture' shift to this team, and this team desperately needs that shift.

  20. #40
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I think both of those statements are incredibly important.

    "If Bargnani is out of the equation there is no odd man out"

    I agree, but my concern here is I don't think he is out of the equation, atleast not yet. If BC's and the organizations moves/statements lately (or history for that matter) tell me anything, its that he is still a big part of this team future. I very much hope I'm off here, but it sure seems to me that BCs mistakenly thinks he can build a team 'Dallas' style team. If that is the case, one of Amir and Ed will be the odd man out (no matter how much they shouldn't be)
    I think there have been a lot of signs that Bargnani is on his way out. I listed a lot of them here:
    http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...s-of-bargnani/

    Then he goes out and gets Casey, a defensive coach and drafts Valanciunas.

    I don't buy the argument that Colangelo hired Casey to hide Bargnani like he was able to do with Dirk, mainly because Dirk is not a liability on defense like Bargnani is, and I'm pretty sure Colangelo and Casey know this. Dirk isn't a good defender, but he's not a bad one. And he's a pretty decent team defender.

    There are far better reasons to keep Davis and Amir than Bargnani. Davis was a gift in the draft and might have more potential than any other current Raptor (not including Valanciunas). Amir was just signed to an incredibly good contract and has four more years left.

    The worst argument I've heard for keeping Bargnani and trading Amir or Davis is that they have more trade value. Of course they have more trade value. They're more productive players with more potential. That doesn't mean you trade them. That means you keep them and trade the guy who isn't as good for the team. It's like if you're redoing your living room. You don't sell the nicest furniture because you'll get the most for it. You sell the stuff you don't want and keep the best stuff.
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