Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ESPN Insider: Five lottery-to-playoffs acquisitions

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Quick fix = FAIL. We need to get a high lotto pick next draft or this team is doomed to usher in another decade mediocrity.

    Comment


    • #17
      NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
      waste of time and money. and if casey is going to move bargnani to the PF position then i'm going to be pissed off big time. Why move bargs to the PF and let him eat up all of Ed's and Amir's playing time. I say trade him the first chance u get
      +1

      If Bargagni is a power forward, we have three of them: Ed, Amir and Andrea. Both Ed and Amir are superior to Andrea for that role, in terms of potential, advanced stats, rebounding, and willingness to go out and work and get the job done. Andrea may have talent, but we haven't been able to get the best out of him: let's trade him to a team that will.

      Comment


      • #18
        Chandler's played 74, 51 and 45 games respectively over the past few seasons. He'll be 29 (or possibly 30 if we lose an entire year to the lockout) when he suits up for his next game, and you can make the argument that he has a few more miles on him that you average 29 year old player considering he came straight from high school.

        Throughout his entire career, you can make a connection between Chandler's personal output and his team's record. When things are going good, like they did in Dallas this season, you get a fully engaged Chandler who is intense and brings it every night. On teams that are not doing so well, his production drops off. Let's not forget that Chandler averaged 6 points and 6 rebounds per night on a lousy Charlotte team only a year ago. Six and Six!! I don't care how good he was in Dallas last season, giving a guy that type of money when he's a season removed from that kind of stinkjob is setting money on fire.

        From the big picture view, signing Chandler won't turn us into contenders, and I'm not sure that it even puts us in the playoffs. All it does is drop our chances of getting a high draft pick next season while burning up any financial flexibility that we had going forward. It's simply not the right time to add this type of player, especially at the cost.

        All in all, I'd hate the move. Absolutely hate it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Tim W. wrote: View Post
          I don't think Chandler is worth the twice as much money as you'd pay for Amir, especially considering you'd be purchasing a declining asset who's never performed well on bad teams, and has struggled throughout his career to remain healthy. Not when Amir has a very good long term contract, is only 24 and is just about as productive as Chandler is right now.
          Ok, but you once again ignore my point that this team needs guys with Experience on winning teams, and it needs veterans who are not afraid to call guys out and ensure that Dwane Casey is being heard and listened too. To help make sure that EVERYONE on the team is buying into the defensive scheme that is layed out, and understands where they need to be.

          Chandler is an infinitely hard worker and great communicator on defense.
          These guys need to see how its done properly, and they need to see it from someone that has helped their team win.

          Having a voice, and presense, like Chandler in the locker-room goes far beyond numbers on the court.

          Comment


          • #20
            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
            Ok, but you once again ignore my point that this team needs guys with Experience on winning teams, and it needs veterans who are not afraid to call guys out and ensure that Dwane Casey is being heard and listened too. To help make sure that EVERYONE on the team is buying into the defensive scheme that is layed out, and understands where they need to be.

            Chandler is an infinitely hard worker and great communicator on defense.
            These guys need to see how its done properly, and they need to see it from someone that has helped their team win.

            Having a voice, and presense, like Chandler in the locker-room goes far beyond numbers on the court.
            I'm not ignoring your point. I'm saying that it is too early to be spending that kind of money on a guy like Chandler, he'd be a very risky acquisition, anyway, due to the fact he's injury prone and his history of playing poorly on bad teams. My argument is that the Raptors should wait a year, and not take a chance on a player who might not work out very well.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
            Follow me on Twitter.

            Comment


            • #21
              joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
              Ok, but you once again ignore my point that this team needs guys with Experience on winning teams, and it needs veterans who are not afraid to call guys out and ensure that Dwane Casey is being heard and listened too. To help make sure that EVERYONE on the team is buying into the defensive scheme that is layed out, and understands where they need to be.

              Chandler is an infinitely hard worker and great communicator on defense.
              These guys need to see how its done properly, and they need to see it from someone that has helped their team win.

              Having a voice, and presense, like Chandler in the locker-room goes far beyond numbers on the court.
              The thing you're missing is that Chandler is not an "infinitely" hard worker. He's a front runner.

              Did he play his ass off this year? Absolutely. He was also surrounded by a great team and was playing for millions upon millions of dollars in his next deal. When he hasn't been motivated financially or on a great team he's been average at times and flat out poor at others.

              Letting yourself get caught up in one single season (especially in a contract year) rather than looking at Chandler's entire body of work is exactly how some of these ridiculous contracts get handed out.
              Last edited by Fully; Thu Jul 21, 2011, 01:29 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Fully wrote: View Post
                The thing you're missing is that Chandler is not an "infinitely" hard worker. He's a front runner.

                Did he play his ass off this year? Absolutely. He was also surrounded by a great team and was playing for millions upon millions of dollars in his next deal. When he hasn't been motivated financially or on a great team he's been average at times and flat out poor at others.

                Letting yourself get caught up in one single season (especially in a contract year) rather than looking at Chandler's entire body of work is exactly how some of these ridiculous contracts get handed out.
                I'm most certainly NOT caught up in one year .... If you look, last year wasn't even his best year. I wanted him long before last year. I wanted him the year before he went to Charlotte. I wanted him while he was leading New Orleans to the Playoffs.
                He was EXACTLY what New Orleans needed to go from Mediocre to SOLID/ Division Champs.

                The season you point you (6 and 6) is so very clearly an outlier, compared to his overall body of work, thats its pretty silly of you to even use it as a point of emphasis. He was very seriously injured that year, with Ankle and Back problems.

                He's averaged 9rbs and 8pts with 1.5blks throughout his career.
                If he can stay healthy, he'll give you the numbers.

                But I'm mostly just looking for him to be an extension of Coach Casey. Which I know is a huge part of what Young Teams need to get to the next step. Proper guidance from someone whos been there.

                And ONCE AGAIN, you guys are completely ignoring my point about Veteran Leadership and Quality experience.
                This is NOT all about numbers.

                Comment


                • #23
                  joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  I'm most certainly NOT caught up in one year .... If you look, last year wasn't even his best year. I wanted him long before last year. I wanted him the year before he went to Charlotte. I wanted him while he was leading New Orleans to the Playoffs.
                  He was EXACTLY what New Orleans needed to go from Mediocre to SOLID/ Division Champs.

                  The season you point you (6 and 6) is so very clearly an outlier, compared to his overall body of work, thats its pretty silly of you to even use it as a point of emphasis. He was very seriously injured that year, with Ankle and Back problems.

                  He's averaged 9rbs and 8pts with 1.5blks throughout his career.
                  If he can stay healthy, he'll give you the numbers.

                  But I'm mostly just looking for him to be an extension of Coach Casey. Which I know is a huge part of what Young Teams need to get to the next step. Proper guidance from someone whos been there.



                  And ONCE AGAIN, you guys are completely ignoring my point about Veteran Leadership and Quality experience.
                  This is NOT all about numbers.
                  How is his season with the Bobcats a "very clear outlier" when his best year of 11.8ppg and 11.7rpg is actually farther away from his career averages than his season in Charlotte?

                  2001-02: 6.1 ppg, 4.8 rpg
                  2003-04: 6.1 pg, 7.7 rpg
                  2005-06: 5.3 ppg, 9 rpg

                  There's three seasons that are all in the ballpark of the season I referenced in Charlotte.

                  And even if I was to give him the absolute benefit of the doubt and assume that he would hit his career averages every year in Toronto, when did averages of 9 and 8 mean that you're a $15 million dollar per year player? He's scored in double digits twice in his career and only toppled 10 rebounds per game twice as well. He hasn't averaged more than 1.2 blocks per game in the last four seasons, when defense is supposed to be his calling card. I can go on.


                  Finally, I really think you're overstating his "leadership" qualities. I don't mean to absolutely crap on the guy but he played on a team with Kidd, Dirk, and Jason Terry this season. He may have done a lot of "rah-rahing" when the camera was on him but he was far from the leader of the Mavs. He was probably fifth on the team's totem pole when it came to leadership.

                  And has he ever shown any of these qualities prior to this season? No! He hasn't. In fact, you can make the case that it's been quite the opposite. Like it's been said many times, the guy has a history of playing up or down to the roster around him, which isn't the type of behavior that springs to mind when I hear the terms "infinitely hard working", "veteran leadership" and "quality experience".

                  PS - I just saw your sig. The irony.
                  Last edited by Fully; Thu Jul 21, 2011, 03:22 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Chandler

                    Fully wrote: View Post
                    Chandler's played 74, 51 and 45 games respectively over the past few seasons. He'll be 29 (or possibly 30 if we lose an entire year to the lockout) when he suits up for his next game ....
                    I'm not sure why the age 30 is considered (by some) with such distaste. Ask these guys what they think of that:

                    Dallas Mavericks
                    • Brian Cardinal -> 34 years old
                    • Brendan Haywood -> 31
                    • Jason Kidd -> 38
                    • Shawn Marion -> 33
                    • Dirk Nowitzki -> 33
                    • Deshawn Stevenson -> 30
                    • Peja Stojakovic -> 34 (contributed 20% of made 3 pointers)
                    • Jason Terry -> 33 years old


                    As Joey H said, experienced veterans (especially those with an attitude) are ideal for a young team like the Raptors - otherwise they develop bad habits. In the end, that concept of a mediocrity team - a concept we abhore - morphs into reality.

                    Unlike many, I believe the goal for this year's team is to make the play-offs. It may be an outside shot - depending on the CBA & this season's schedule - but the fact is, until we get into the play-offs, we'll always have a hard time attracting quality players into the fold. And we'll have a harder time keeping who we have.
                    .

                    I hate tanking, implied or allowed. It fosters bad relations, reckless habits, and player indifference. Losers play to lose, Winners - as Charlie Sheen might shout - are WINNING.

                    Chandler could be an classic example of the change that occurs for a player who brings something to his team - moving from an organization that was indifferent, to a team that WANTED to win.
                    .

                    As Davis & Jonas have illustrated, getting a quality player later on than "expected", is entirely possible. This next draft will have all those players who "held off" in 2011, plus all those expected to make the jump in 2012. That has to make the next draft well stocked - and featuring quality that goes beyond just the first 10 or so players.

                    I've heard that the 2012 draft will feature an abundance of PG's and SF's, two positions for which the Raptors have to address. If Toronto doesn't get one (or both) in the 2012 draft, I'm sure the number of free agents (at these positions) will offset any misses we make.
                    .

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                      experienced veterans (especially those with an attitude) are ideal for a young team like the Raptors - otherwise they develop bad habits. In the end, that concept of a mediocrity team - a concept we abhore - morphs into reality.

                      Unlike many, I believe the goal for this year's team is to make the play-offs. It may be an outside shot - depending on the CBA & this season's schedule - but the fact is, until we get into the play-offs, we'll always have a hard time attracting quality players into the fold. And we'll have a harder time keeping who we have.
                      Great post. Fully agree.

                      I posted a video of Carter lighting it up in the Playoffs one year for us.
                      You can SEE how much fun they are having on the court. I haven't seen that in a LONG time.
                      Once you start winning, even a little bit, everything else becomes second-priority.
                      The young guys will CRAVE it once they've had a taste. It will only make them work harder, knowing they have a shot.
                      And these guys actually LIKE it here. I think. Lets not run them out of town by "Holding out for draft picks."

                      All this "we'll miss out on a draft pick if we suddenly turn out to be not-so-bad" is silly, in my opinion. Draft picks are nice, but look at teams like Minni and LA and Golden State and Charlotte. You can spend a LOONG time in the Lottery and not have a whole lot to show for it.
                      Last edited by Joey; Thu Jul 21, 2011, 02:28 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        You do realize that you're actually helping my argument and not hindering it, right?

                        Brendan Haywood - Here's a guy who had his best season in 2010 during a CONTRACT YEAR (sound familiar), received a big fat deal from the Mavs, then proceeded to show up to camp out of shape, lose his starting spot to Chandler and post career worsts in all categories despite being paid more money that he ever had before. And you posted this to make the case to sign Chandler?

                        Peja Stojakovic - Peja signed a deal when he was 29 that would pay him 60 million over 5 seasons (sound familiar?), battled injuries over the next few years and saw his stats decline across the board. This season, he's been diminished to a one dimensional role player who got buried during the finals because he couldn't guard anyone, yet he still made $15 million (being roughly overpaid by $12 million or so)

                        These two are literally the worst case scenarios for Chandler and yet you threw them up their with their ages like you had proven some unbelievable point. These guys prove exactly what I'm saying, that giving out big money deals to players who are on the back end of their careers is risky business... and those two didn't even have a history of injuries or front running the way Chandler does.

                        The other names are mentioned so badly out of context that I don't even want to respond.
                        Last edited by Fully; Thu Jul 21, 2011, 03:30 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'm all for some veteran presence but I don't think Chandler is the guy you want around. Up until last year, he has never been a guy you would to bring in for "veteran leadership". It's crazy when you think about it, but with people comparing Chandler with JV. 2 years ago that would have been a damning comparison, not a good one.

                          When I think of veteran leadership, I think of someone in the twilight of their careers who can provide more coaching than actual example. Someone like an Anthony Parker -- someone who has years of experience, but also someone who has played the game with humility and class. Sorry, but those are not characteristics I think of when someone mentions Tyson Chandler.

                          Detroit is a good example of relatively young team that kept some older guys to provide "veteran experience and leadership". They did not do well this year, at all. In fact they were terrible, and pretty bad last year too. Look at the way things backfired with Rip Hamilton complaining about his playing time. Do you really want to pay Tyson Chandler $12M so that in 2 years, he starts complaining the same way as Hamilton, when we need to be giving minutes to JV to develop?
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            With JV on the way I'm not sure if Chandler is a wise long term investment unless Bargnani is heading out.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                              But I'm mostly just looking for him to be an extension of Coach Casey. Which I know is a huge part of what Young Teams need to get to the next step. Proper guidance from someone whos been there.

                              And ONCE AGAIN, you guys are completely ignoring my point about Veteran Leadership and Quality experience.
                              This is NOT all about numbers.
                              Disagreeing with you is not ignoring your point.

                              You want to pay an injury prone player, who has never played well on a bad team, $10+ million a year so he can be an extension of the coach? That doesn't sound like money well invested. Especially for a lottery team. Veteran leadership is great, but not at that price.

                              And many of us are not huge fans of Chandler, to begin with. He's only had one year where he's really been lauded for his veteran leadership, and there's no guarantee he would fill the same roll on the Raptors.

                              One thing I don't like about signing him is that if he does have a major positive impact on the team on the floor, it actually might hurt the team in the long term by lessening the chance they will get a top 3 pick.

                              The NUMBER ONE priority for this team is to acquire elite talent, of which they have none. Otherwise, no matter what veteran leadership they have, they will have a ceiling of a 2nd round team and that's it. They have some excellent young talent, but no potential elite talent. The most likely thing signing Chandler would do, would be to make the team mediocre, and haven't Raptor fans seen enough mediocrity to last them a lifetime?
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                                I'm not sure why the age 30 is considered (by some) with such distaste. Ask these guys what they think of that:

                                Dallas Mavericks
                                • Brian Cardinal -> 34 years old
                                • Brendan Haywood -> 31
                                • Jason Kidd -> 38
                                • Shawn Marion -> 33
                                • Dirk Nowitzki -> 33
                                • Deshawn Stevenson -> 30
                                • Peja Stojakovic -> 34 (contributed 20% of made 3 pointers)
                                • Jason Terry -> 33 years old


                                As Joey H said, experienced veterans (especially those with an attitude) are ideal for a young team like the Raptors - otherwise they develop bad habits. In the end, that concept of a mediocrity team - a concept we abhore - morphs into reality.

                                Unlike many, I believe the goal for this year's team is to make the play-offs. It may be an outside shot - depending on the CBA & this season's schedule - but the fact is, until we get into the play-offs, we'll always have a hard time attracting quality players into the fold. And we'll have a harder time keeping who we have.
                                .

                                I hate tanking, implied or allowed. It fosters bad relations, reckless habits, and player indifference. Losers play to lose, Winners - as Charlie Sheen might shout - are WINNING.

                                Chandler could be an classic example of the change that occurs for a player who brings something to his team - moving from an organization that was indifferent, to a team that WANTED to win.
                                .

                                As Davis & Jonas have illustrated, getting a quality player later on than "expected", is entirely possible. This next draft will have all those players who "held off" in 2011, plus all those expected to make the jump in 2012. That has to make the next draft well stocked - and featuring quality that goes beyond just the first 10 or so players.

                                I've heard that the 2012 draft will feature an abundance of PG's and SF's, two positions for which the Raptors have to address. If Toronto doesn't get one (or both) in the 2012 draft, I'm sure the number of free agents (at these positions) will offset any misses we make.
                                .
                                Veteran teams win. That's nothing new. Dallas is one of the most veteran teams in the league. They're also a team whose window was probably one year, the way the team is structured, now. Cuban was putting all his eggs in one basket. Thankfully for him it paid off. I'd rather look at the Thunder as an example. A young team that will continue to grow together and compete for the next ten years.

                                Bad habits can form in players on bad teams. That is true. But that's why it's important to get the right types of players and coaches who will not accept this. You need self motivated players who will work hard and do anything it takes to win and succeed. And you need the right coaches who can show them how to win and succeed. Veteran players are nice, but far more important are the right coaches.

                                As for making the playoffs, it's a nice idea, but do you think this team, as currently constructed, has the potential to be a contender? Without any elite talent? Getting quality players lower in the draft is certainly possible. Getting elite talent outside of the top 5 is nearly impossible. You'd be better off buying a lottery ticket.

                                Making the playoffs next year would certainly give the Raptors a taste of winning, which is great, but without the talent to build on it, what's the point? Milwaukee made the playoffs last season, but didn't have the talent to build on it. Same with Charlotte. Indiana is pretty much in the same boat.

                                Before you send your boat out to sea, you need to make sure it's built properly to withstand the trip. Otherwise you'll be back on shore in no time in no better shape than you were before.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X