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Thread: DeMar DeRozan's Potential

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Default DeMar DeRozan's Potential

    here's an article i found on hoopsvibe. http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/fl...zans-potential

    this guy has some valid points, but i still think DeMar has time to improve his ISO game.

    Here's another article

    http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog...demar-derozan/

    its a few months old but still a good read. I think Demar's on his way to becoming a great player in this league, i could see him as a top 10 SG in the NBA.
    Last edited by NoPropsneeded; Fri Jul 29th, 2011 at 12:09 AM.

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    One thing we can all agree on is that DeRozan has more potential to be a star in the NBA than Master P had in the rap game.. Or in anything for that matter.

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    The website look like it was designed in the late 90s and the the writer reads like he's still in high school. Other than that...well, that's about it, I guess.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The website look like it was designed in the late 90s and the the writer reads like he's still in high school. Other than that...well, that's about it, I guess.
    My favorite part of this article (and I use that term loosely) was the part where the author says something like, 70 percent of his mid range jump shots were assisted which proves that he can't play one on one.

    fantastic.

    Why would any team want to create open jump shots for each other with ball movement, when you can work harder by over-dribbling the ball.

    Too much playstation basketball.

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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    My favorite part of this article (and I use that term loosely) was the part where the author says something like, 70 percent of his mid range jump shots were assisted which proves that he can't play one on one.

    fantastic.

    Why would any team want to create open jump shots for each other with ball movement, when you can work harder by over-dribbling the ball.

    Too much playstation basketball.
    Good point.

    I guess by this same logic Rip Hamilton was not a good offensive player receiving the ball running off all those screens for mid-range jumpers. He really should have pounded the piss out of the ball until his teammates ran to the other side of the court and his defender got sleepy.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Good point.

    I guess by this same logic Rip Hamilton was not a good offensive player receiving the ball running off all those screens for mid-range jumpers. He really should have pounded the piss out of the ball until his teammates ran to the other side of the court and his defender got sleepy.
    Or Reggie Miller ... he must have been awful, based on these stats ... and those stupid PG's finding people in good spots, ruining their ISO stats!!! The nerve.
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    This was a really good article...









    For me to poop on.

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    25, 5 and 3...... would be incredible but seems unlikely.

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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    25, 5 and 3...... would be incredible but seems unlikely.
    There's not a lot in that article that I'd take seriously.

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    the article reads like something one of the slow kids in my journalism class would have wrote and we'd all laugh at in the media room
    @jerboat

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    ya the first article was kinda stupid i'll admit, but what can i say there isn't many things to talk about raptors related. Its a slow news day(or month)

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    One of the downsides to summer and in a lockout....plenty of uninspiring reading on the subject. Even Arse is having trouble on choosing topics...not that I blame him. But a combination of lack of subjects as well as bad writing can be lethal.

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    Everything in the first article in correct except the last paragraph.

    Isolation skills cannot be improved at this level. That is something that is grown with the player since elementary school days. No one improves in that area at the pro level. I’ve never seen it. Players such as Jordan, Kobe, Rose, Wade, and Iverson do not get better with the creativity of their handles and separation ability to manufacture points. Instead, they just get smarter.
    That's exactly right, point by point, right down the line. I would extend that to every other skill, such as shooting, passing, rebounding, defense et al. NBA players tend to improve slightly every year until they're around 30, and then they decline slightly every year thereafter. Bill James says MLB hitters don't learn how to hit at the major league level. They learn in the minors. NBA players do not learn elite skills in the league itself. They develop those skills as very young people and then carry them forward, refining them each step along the way. This means DDR is nothing more than an average player, and that's all he will ever be.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Everything in the first article in correct except the last paragraph.



    That's exactly right, point by point, right down the line. I would extend that to every other skill, such as shooting, passing, rebounding, defense et al. NBA players tend to improve slightly every year until they're around 30, and then they decline slightly every year thereafter. Bill James says MLB hitters don't learn how to hit at the major league level. They learn in the minors. NBA players do not learn elite skills in the league itself. They develop those skills as very young people and then carry them forward, refining them each step along the way. This means DDR is nothing more than an average player, and that's all he will ever be.
    Disagree. Completely.

    You say "NBA players tend to improve slightly every year until they're around 30, and then they decline.."
    Demar Derozan is only 21 years old.
    According to your 'stat', he still has 9 years of improvement.

    And seeing as he is already an elite level athlete, with a very obvious above average scoring ability, I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. He is an average man to man defender, but with his athletic abilities, he has a far more likely chance of utilizing that and refining said defensive deficiencies. His jump shot has already shown massive improvement, to the point where is already average-above average, and with his drive and determination, there is NOTHING stopping that jump shot from becoming DEADLY.

    If you watch clips of him in High School and College, you will see a very clear above average ability to take his man one on one. Thus, he has already developed said ability, and merely needs to "refine it" for the NBA level. Because he is only 21, and still learning his trade, he has not been able to apply said skill yet, but it will come with confidence and comfort on the court.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Disagree. Completely.

    You say "NBA players tend to improve slightly every year until they're around 30, and then they decline.."
    Demar Derozan is only 21 years old.
    According to your 'stat', he still has 9 years of improvement.

    And seeing as he is already an elite level athlete, with a very obvious above average scoring ability, I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. He is an average man to man defender, but with his athletic abilities, he has a far more likely chance of utilizing that and refining said defensive deficiencies. His jump shot has already shown massive improvement, to the point where is already average-above average, and with his drive and determination, there is NOTHING stopping that jump shot from becoming DEADLY.

    If you watch clips of him in High School and College, you will see a very clear above average ability to take his man one on one. Thus, he has already developed said ability, and merely needs to "refine it" for the NBA level. Because he is only 21, and still learning his trade, he has not been able to apply said skill yet, but it will come with confidence and comfort on the court.
    he actually never had the chance to this season cause of bargnani. I think next season we will see more plays run for demar and we will probably see the ball in his hands in late game situations. Hopefully he turns out more like D wade in the clutch, not Lechoke James.


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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Everything in the first article in correct except the last paragraph.



    That's exactly right, point by point, right down the line. I would extend that to every other skill, such as shooting, passing, rebounding, defense et al. NBA players tend to improve slightly every year until they're around 30, and then they decline slightly every year thereafter. Bill James says MLB hitters don't learn how to hit at the major league level. They learn in the minors. NBA players do not learn elite skills in the league itself. They develop those skills as very young people and then carry them forward, refining them each step along the way. This means DDR is nothing more than an average player, and that's all he will ever be.
    Actually, a lot of the article isn't true. Lots of players improve their skills, and some a fair bit. The problem is he used elite players as examples, which is kind of ridiculous. Most of those players were elite players almost immediately and that's why all but Kobe were drafted in the top 5. There are very few people that believe DeRozan will become an elite player, but he could most definitely become an All-Star.

    The argument in the article is almost as bad as the writing.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Disagree. Completely.

    You say "NBA players tend to improve slightly every year until they're around 30, and then they decline.."
    Demar Derozan is only 21 years old.
    According to your 'stat', he still has 9 years of improvement.

    And seeing as he is already an elite level athlete, with a very obvious above average scoring ability, I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion. He is an average man to man defender, but with his athletic abilities, he has a far more likely chance of utilizing that and refining said defensive deficiencies. His jump shot has already shown massive improvement, to the point where is already average-above average, and with his drive and determination, there is NOTHING stopping that jump shot from becoming DEADLY.

    If you watch clips of him in High School and College, you will see a very clear above average ability to take his man one on one. Thus, he has already developed said ability, and merely needs to "refine it" for the NBA level. Because he is only 21, and still learning his trade, he has not been able to apply said skill yet, but it will come with confidence and comfort on the court.
    Here we go with the euphemisms. "he's only 21", "he's an elite athlete" -- note, not basketball player, but athlete -- "there's nothing stopping...", "he was great in hs/college", "he only needs to refine...".

    So here's my response: Take a look at what Jordan did in the NBA at age 21, every player in the NBA is an elite athlete, there's nothing stopping a fish from being a bird except that a fish isn't a bird, everybody in the NBA was a hs/college all-american -- even the scrubs, he has had lots of playing time in the past 2 years and made little or no difference on the team.

    Quote Tim W wrote: View Post
    Actually, a lot of the article isn't true. Lots of players improve their skills, and some a fair bit. The problem is he used elite players as examples, which is kind of ridiculous. Most of those players were elite players almost immediately and that's why all but Kobe were drafted in the top 5. There are very few people that believe DeRozan will become an elite player, but he could most definitely become an All-Star.
    I'm not sure I know what you mean by "elite" as opposed to "all-star". I like to use Sturgeon's Law -- 90% of everything is crap -- to narrow down the number of really useful players in the league at any given time to about 35. Those guys are adding a lot of wins to their teams, making all-star games, being named to all-NBA teams, and even contending for MVP awards. DeRozan has not been close to that upper 10% in his first two seasons, and performance doesn't vary much in the NBA from year to year, for anyone. This isn't baseball, where a guy might have a great year, and then two awful ones in a row (Aaron Hill), or might get into the hall-of-fame even though he was wildly inconsistent (Eddie Murray).
    I appreciated his use of all-time greats as evidence that players develop their important traits at a very young age. I'd go so far as to say their most important traits on the court are developed before they're born. It's those players who teams rely on to win games, playoff series, and championships.

    Take a look at this team: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1982.html

    So let's say DeRozan eventually becomes as productive as Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes. He won't, but let's say he does. So effing what? Wilkes was along for the ride on that team. The prime movers were Magic and Kareem. Wilkes could have been replaced by most of the starting shooting guards in the NBA that year and the Lakers would still have taken it all. And Wilkes played in 3 all-star games. Silk retired after the next season and the Lakers replaced him with Byron Scott. They kept winning championships because they still had the prime movers. DeRozan is even more interchangeable than that.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Here we go with the euphemisms. "he's only 21", "he's an elite athlete" -- note, not basketball player, but athlete -- "there's nothing stopping...", "he was great in hs/college", "he only needs to refine...".

    So here's my response: Take a look at what Jordan did in the NBA at age 21, every player in the NBA is an elite athlete, there's nothing stopping a fish from being a bird except that a fish isn't a bird, everybody in the NBA was a hs/college all-american -- even the scrubs, he has had lots of playing time in the past 2 years and made little or no difference on the team.
    I didn't know we were comparing Demar to Jordan ... in that case .. you are right. He sucks.
    Great argument.




    When I say "Elite Athlete", I mean Top 5 in the League. I'm fully aware that NBA players are not your average Joe on the street level athletes.

    You said players need to show exceptional skill at a young age. I pointed out that Demar did.
    I did not say "Elite Level Basketball Player" because VERY FEW if any players, playing in the NBA at the age of 21 are "Elite". For his age group, he is certainly Exceptional, and Above Average.
    As for your comment about "making little to no difference on the team" ... well you must not have watched too many of the games last year.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I didn't know we were comparing Demar to Jordan ... in that case .. you are right. He sucks.
    Great argument.




    When I say "Elite Athlete", I mean Top 5 in the League. I'm fully aware that NBA players are not your average Joe on the street level athletes.

    You said players need to show exceptional skill at a young age. I pointed out that Demar did.
    I did not say "Elite Level Basketball Player" because VERY FEW if any players, playing in the NBA at the age of 21 are "Elite". For his age group, he is certainly Exceptional, and Above Average.
    As for your comment about "making little to no difference on the team" ... well you must not have watched too many of the games last year.
    Here's their record, in case you forgot it: 22-60. They lost 60 games. They will lose 60 games for the forseeable future until they bring in a prime mover. That means for an indefinite period of time. DeRozan will not change that. If he was good enough to impose himself on the other team and destroy them every night, he would have done so by now. So it doesn't matter a hill of beans if he improves 1% per year for the next few years. He'll still be an interchangeable part on an extremely bad team. A team that will lose 60 games per year.

    By the way, DeRozan played 2851 minutes last year and contributed 3.3 win shares to a disastrous, cover-your-eyes awful team. A team that lost 60 games. He was given every conceivable opportunity to prove he could win games for the team, and the result? 60 losses.

    Concise list of DeRozan's accomplishments in Toronto:

    Toronto Raptors 2k11 record: 22-60
    SRS: -6.28 (27th of 30)
    Off Rtg: 105.9 (21st of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 112.7 (30th of 30)

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    If Demar is 'average at best' because of being on a crappy team, and 'only' contributing 3.3; then Tyreke Evans must be god awful, with having only 1.6 WS for the Kings. Or John Wall with a 2.2.
    Or Kobe as a rookie with only a 1.8 WS must prove that he was destined to be nothing more than a scrub.

    I see Demar very much blossoming into this 'Prime Mover' you speak of.
    We clearly disagree. Which is fine.
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