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Thread: One reason we get no respect.

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Rookie YoungGuns's Avatar
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    Default One reason we get no respect.

    Amir Johnson played his heart out last year ... he was hurt for alot of those games but still came out to battle everyday. In my opinion he was our best player last year. Bargs gave it half ass on def, might have scored alot of points but were did that get us. Now not only is Amir not getting his props but he might be pushed to 3rd in rotation when the next season starts (Bargs, Davis, then Amir).

    My point is if I'm a free agent looking for a team and I see the raptors what I see is a team that does not reward players based on effort or improvement but on "who do you like more". I'm Italian and am not a hater of Bargs (I think he would make a really good 6th man for us) but this playing favorites has to stop or we will never get good fa's without overpaying or respect from the rest of the league.

    Just my 2 cents

  2. #2
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I just see it as Amir being the 3rd most talented PF and having the 3rd most potential among the Raps' PF.

    Davis is young and full of potential to develop solid game at both ends of the court. He brings good defense, good help defense, blocking ability and hustle on the boards.

    Bargnani is a talented offensive weapon who can cause all sorts of matchup problems. His man-to-man defense is average and his rebounding could improve with just a little effort. If he slides from C to PF and plays alongside a defensive-minded C and guards who can actually defend penetration, his biggest weakness from last season (help defense) will be mitigated. If he isn't asked to be the #1 offensive option, he could thrive. Yes, he absolutely needs a better attitude, more consistent hustle and improvement on defense/rebounding, but his offensive talent and the matchup nightmares he can cause (and help his teammates get better shots by drawing out big defenders) is not something that comes along everday... with a new coach, new system that demands defensive commitment and a new position/team, I would give Bargnani one more season to see if he can put it all together (especially if he's not asked to be "the guy" and isn't consistently referred to by media as "cornerstone" or "franchise player").

    Amir brings heart and hustle, but his game is limited and I believe he's reached his ceiling. Amir is good at both ends, but not great at either and has limited room to improve. Although his age is still young (younger than Bargnani by a couple years), his body has taken a beating. Davis is a better defender/rebounder than Amir and Bargnani is a bigger offensive threat than Amir. Given his age, contract, coachability and hustle, I think Amir makes a very attractive trade chip to acquire another draft pick in next year's sick draft.


    Lots of teams have brought in free agents, only to have those big name free agents pushed into backup roles due to the emergence of young players, subsequent trades or future drafts. Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA, just as in life. I really like Amir, but I would have him as #3 on the Raps' PF depth chart too.

  3. #3
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    In no way should Amir start before Bargnani, although his D sucks he was our leading scorer. Hopefully the raps bring in a Center that can play D to overshadow bargs' lack of.

    Ed Davis has a high ceiling, and looks like he'll be the future at the PF position in a few years to come.

    I like Amir but out of the 3 PF's we have he is the 3rd option.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Starter Fuchan's Avatar
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    I can see why bargs plays half ass, he's not a leader and figures since the team sucks, why should he go all out. Yes, its a shitty attitude but I can see why he does the things he does. If we get a defensive center and he still blows, ship him out

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    Who the hell cares if he's our #1 scorer, that's like a person who can only eat, but can't drink(play D), yes scoring is very important just like food, but defense like water is essential, look at the Bucks in 2009, they were basically dead last in offense, but top 10 in defense, where did they go? they pushed the Hawks to 7 games, the Raps were last in D, but top 5 in offense, where did that get us? 9th in a weak Eastern conference and once again in the lottery.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is a talented offensive weapon who can cause all sorts of matchup problems. His man-to-man defense is average and his rebounding could improve with just a little effort. If he slides from C to PF and plays alongside a defensive-minded C and guards who can actually defend penetration, his biggest weakness from last season (help defense) will be mitigated. If he isn't asked to be the #1 offensive option, he could thrive. Yes, he absolutely needs a better attitude, more consistent hustle and improvement on defense/rebounding, but his offensive talent and the matchup nightmares he can cause (and help his teammates get better shots by drawing out big defenders) is not something that comes along everday... with a new coach, new system that demands defensive commitment and a new position/team, I would give Bargnani one more season to see if he can put it all together (especially if he's not asked to be "the guy" and isn't consistently referred to by media as "cornerstone" or "franchise player").
    You know what even rarer? White Swan ineptness on the boards and help defense. Far, far rarer.

    It's all because he can shoot threes if he were scoring exactly as (in)efficiently, but like a normal C, he would have been traded already. I honestly can't fathom why we should give him another chance after 5 seasons, putting him in many different situations, and over 10,000 minutes. "Just a little more effort" probably means grabbing 2 more boards a game. But that would be about a 40% increase for him with the raw numbers. It's all so...unrealistic.

    Even if you made Bargnani a 3rd option, his rebounding and terrible D would still make his a net negative. He is not a starter in this league...unless you want to produce losses.

  7. #7
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Even if you made Bargnani a 3rd option, his rebounding and terrible D would still make his a net negative. He is not a starter in this league...unless you want to produce losses.
    Then name me 30 power forwards in the league who are better..?

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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Even if you made Bargnani a 3rd option, his rebounding and terrible D would still make his a net negative. He is not a starter in this league...unless you want to produce losses.
    He was 3rd option in the Atlantic division championship team and that's when he was a rookie.

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote ATT wrote: View Post
    Then name me 30 power forwards in the league who are better..?
    1. Ibaka
    2. Dirk
    3. Carl Landry
    4. Scola
    5. Amar'e
    6. Duncan
    7. Pau Gasol
    8. Marc Gasol
    9. Kevin Love
    10. Blake Griffin
    11. Aldridge
    12. Boozer
    13. Garnett
    14. Z-Bo
    15. Josh Smith
    16. David Lee
    17. Paul Millsap
    18. Luc Mbah Moute
    19. Brandon Bass
    20. Kenyon Martin
    21. Channing Frye
    22. Jeff Green
    23. Derrick Favors
    24. Boris Diaw
    25. Anderson Varejao
    26. JJ Hickson
    27. Greg Monroe*
    28. Jason Maxiell
    29. Villanueva
    30. Jordan Hill
    31. Tyler Hansbrough
    32. Udonis Haslem
    33. Ryan Anderson

    I'd would rather have all of those players instead of White Swan starting for me. Even if some of them are old farts, in basketball years.

    You can probably add Kanter, Tristan Thompson, and Derrick Willams to the list when they start playing.

    FAQs and comments.
    (Insert player here)?!? Really? He's just a role player!
    None of those players are historically bad rebounders. Not many of them are inefficient offensive players, and if they are, I'll be willing to be that he's a good defender to make up for it.

    But they weren't put into to role Bargnani was in last season.
    Well, since White Swan can't handle his own usage at all, this point is rather moot, isn't it?

    But I'll go deeper: Looking at Bargnani's career numbers, the only year he was a productive player was in the 09-10 season, and even that is very, very debatable. Look closer, at his other seasons and try and say to yourself whether that season is either an outlier and a normal season. That one "good season" had a stronger effect on his career averages then the rest of his unproductive ones.

    Even if you put him as a role player, like lets say Ryan Anderson.You're still putting a extremely one-dimensional player out there. In the 09-10 season, the Raptors were on pace to literally have the most efficient offense of all time (they finish 5th overall). Bargnani still was only a SLIGHTLY above average offensive. Historically bad rebounder, and non-existent help defense puts him into the red.

    Defense is fine and all, but you need to score to win.
    It's far, far hard to get a good defensive team than a good offensive one. Those 60~ win Phoenix teams were still in the top 15 defensively.

    You're really overvaluing offense. You need efficient scoring to win. Small, but extremely impactful difference. And Bargnani, who's been put in a ton of different situations, and given a metric ton of undeserved PT that players (like, say Bayless) who kill for, he has never been a truly efficient offensive player.

    Bargnani can easily grab two more rebounds, it's just effort/he's trying not to stat stuff.
    Bullshit. This is actually insulting to Bargnani. We've been a crappy rebounding team for so freaking long, that he can't even notice that he should hit the glass more?!? Just getting two more boards a game to be a passable rebounder would be a 40% increase!! You're seriously expecting player going into his 6th season to make that kind of drastic increase for no freaking reason. And he would STILL be well below average. That doesn't disturb you at all?

    And if it is effort, why keep the guy? Look at how VC turned out. You don't depend on guys like that, and expect to go far.

    Even someone like Dirk grabbed 20% of the avaliable defensive rebounds throughout his career. Kevin Love shot more 3s at a far better clip and gets about 3 times a many rebounds as White Swan. There is no excuse for him being a such a shitty rebounder. None.

    If those other players were playing C, they would suck too.
    But they aren't 7'1", 250+ pound players are they? Bargnani's a center, just a crappy one.

    Just think about the overall talent level at C for a minute. Now think about the overall talent pool at PF. Exactly how is it going to help Bargnani? Seriously, the average PF is a far better offensive player than the average C. I'd even say that talent-wise, is the 2nd best position in the league, after PG. He's still going to have to help out a ton on defense. He's still going to have to guard ball screen, communicate, get back on defense etc, and he sucks at all of those things. He's only really got his post defense to fall back on. And that's likely on low usage players so...

    There are still going to be things that our defense can't control, and team will still go right at White Swan. It'll be 1-4 screens instead. >.>

    Well maybe if the perimeter defense wasn't so bad then...
    ...This only works with Calderon, and Calderon at least tries on defense. He simply isn't physically able to keep up. Bargnani doesn't have (and the rest of the team doesn't have nearly as much experience/logged career minutes as Bargnani, if you were going to go there.) that kind of massive athletic disadvantage.

    You don't opposing players come in with a sizable psychological advantage knowing that White Swan is the closest player at the rim? You don't think that his almost non-existent help defense doesn't contribute to lack of trust the players have at that end?
    ---
    I look at it like this:

    There are three areas of the game: Offense, defense, and rebounding. For a player to be productive he has to be good at 2 of those 3 things. Elite players are good at all 3.

    Bargnani is a mediocre offensive player at best, quite arguably the worst defender in the league, and historically bad at rebounder. The jump people are hoping to him to make because of a new coach, and what will likely be a mediocre defensive stop gap C starting beside him are asinine. It would be a basketball miracle for him to become a productive player.

    And WoW has it's flaws, but Goddamn it, articles like this saying that we would be better off playing at center JR Smith instead of him should even be possible to calculate.

  10. #10
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Back to the original topic, the reason why the team has no respect is because we suck. That's it, nothing more.
    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    He was 3rd option in the Atlantic division championship team and that's when he was a rookie.
    And he was still really inefficient with his offense. And he was coming off of the bench.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Rookie Mr.Grinch's Avatar
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    I would put bargs 16th on your list
    http://websitedweeb.userboard.net-Introduce your website. No signup required!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Sometimes, like right after the draft, we get no respect because we don't deserve any. On Lithuanian sites they were disgusted with the reactions of Raptor fans to the pick. As a result they were very dissapointed that Jonas V landed with us. Luckily the fans calmed down but it will be brought up for years to come in Lithuania, like when a contractextension is coming. First impressions...

    Likewise I am disgusted when fans start using insulting nicknames for players they don't like. I would really hate it if those players or teammates or family and friends would have to see that (over and over). This namecalling happens way too often with Raptor fans and should harm the respect we deserve.

  13. #13
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    what what is right. We get no respect because we are and historically have been a bad team. This has been a team rebuilding since 2001.

    In that time the fans paying the way have been treated to:

    3 GMs
    5 head coaches
    2 first round playoff exits
    0 superstars/elite level players
    478 losses

    and more forgotton 10 dayers then you can shake a stick at

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    He was 3rd option in the Atlantic division championship team and that's when he was a rookie.
    And then when he became our second option, we became a fringe playoff team.

    When he became our centerpiece, we won 22 games.

    As Bargnani's role has increased with the team, we've regressed.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Man. I usually agree with your posts, but this list is a bit ridiculous. You would take David Lee over bargs? C'mon. Charlie V? Mbah Moute?

    I understand you are trying to make a point, but this is forced and makes you look like a hater instead of a rationale critic.

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    what what is right. We get no respect because we are and historically have been a bad team. This has been a team rebuilding since 2001.

    In that time the fans paying the way have been treated to:

    3 GMs
    5 head coaches
    2 first round playoff exits
    0 superstars/elite level players
    478 losses

    and more forgotton 10 dayers then you can shake a stick at
    Exactly! We have to have some semblance of an identity handed down by head office before the league will start to notice this team. Other wise it looks like a continuation of the clusterf^&k from the past decade. All those calling for Colangelos head don't seem to realize how harmful this high turnover rate is to this franchise.

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic Rookie YoungGuns's Avatar
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    I think we would be alot better of a team if we trade Bargs for a real SF ... I'd be happy to watch:
    PG: Jerryd Bayless
    SG: DeMar DeRozan
    SF: Trade for Bargs
    PF: Ed Davis or Amir Johnson
    C: Jonas Valanciunas

    I could get behind that team just to see if we could cause any damage ... all young and want to make a mark.

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    Man. I usually agree with your posts, but this list is a bit ridiculous. You would take David Lee over bargs? C'mon. Charlie V? Mbah Moute?

    I understand you are trying to make a point, but this is forced and makes you look like a hater instead of a rationale critic.
    Umm, If you wouldn't take David Lee over Bargnani then you are crazy.

    He's basically the polar opposite of Bargnani when it comes to rebounding - amongst the league leaders every year for rebounds per game and total rebound %. He's a better playmaker than Bargnani. He scores much more efficiently and ranks 5th amongst active NBA players in FG % and 6th in offensive rating. If Colangelo called Golden State and asked about a Bargnani for Lee swap he would get hung up on.

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    1. Ibaka
    2. Dirk
    3. Carl Landry
    4. Scola
    5. Amar'e
    6. Duncan
    7. Pau Gasol
    8. Marc Gasol
    9. Kevin Love
    10. Blake Griffin
    11. Aldridge
    12. Boozer
    13. Garnett
    14. Z-Bo
    15. Josh Smith
    16. David Lee
    17. Paul Millsap
    18. Luc Mbah Moute
    19. Brandon Bass
    20. Kenyon Martin
    21. Channing Frye
    22. Jeff Green
    23. Derrick Favors
    24. Boris Diaw
    25. Anderson Varejao
    26. JJ Hickson
    27. Greg Monroe*
    28. Jason Maxiell
    29. Villanueva
    30. Jordan Hill
    31. Tyler Hansbrough
    32. Udonis Haslem
    33. Ryan Anderson

    I'd would rather have all of those players instead of White Swan starting for me. Even if some of them are old farts, in basketball years.
    I'm not sure what is worse your repeated use of a terrible nickname in white swan or your list of the 30 better players. I do apologize as i couldn't read the rest of your post and it may have had some good information but the list was too much to look past...

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    And then when he became our second option, we became a fringe playoff team.

    When he became our centerpiece, we won 22 games.

    As Bargnani's role has increased with the team, we've regressed.
    Do you really believe Dre's increased role is the only factor? lol

    By center piece you mean best player as the team went into rebuild mode? I hope your not insisting that the team was built around him...

    This is just a typical post with no substance to it what so ever other then negativity towards Dre. How has the rest of the roster looked like since those days? I'm sure the talent is about on par for the other players under contract too right.

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