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Thread: One reason we get no respect.

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    Exactly! We have to have some semblance of an identity handed down by head office before the league will start to notice this team. Other wise it looks like a continuation of the clusterf^&k from the past decade. All those calling for Colangelos head don't seem to realize how harmful this high turnover rate is to this franchise.
    Players don't give a crap about continuity at the general manager position if that said GM is putting a lousy team on the floor year after year. Most players care about two things when they sign somewhere. How much money they're getting paid and what their chances of winning are there. Other things like weather and night life can play a role for certain players as well, but turnover at the GM position ranks pretty low on the list of criteria.

  2. #22
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Do you really believe Dre's increased role is the only factor? lol

    By center piece you mean best player as the team went into rebuild mode? I hope your not insisting that the team was built around him...

    This is just a typical post with no substance to it what so ever other then negativity towards Dre. How has the rest of the roster looked like since those days? I'm sure the talent is about on par for the other players under contract too right.
    Obviously, there's a ton of factors that have contributed to the Raptors decline besides an increase in Bargnani's involvement. Maybe I should have prefaced my comments with that but I thought it would have gone without saying. I guess not.

    However I do believe that there is a correlation between the two. When we won the Atlantic Division, Bargnani was a complementary player who came off the bench. With a similar roster over the next few seasons, but with Bargnani appointed as our "second option" and inserted in the starting lineup, we slid out of the playoff picture or barely made it in just to get worked over in the first round. This season, with him as the centerpiece of the team, we were one of the worst in the league.

    I blame Colangelo for that, not Bargnani. But the point I'm trying to make is that Bargnani is not a player worthy of all these accomodations or excuses.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 09:56 AM.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Obviously, there's a ton of factors that have contributed to the Raptors decline besides an increase in Bargnani's involvement. Maybe I should have prefaced my comments with that but I thought it would have gone without saying. I guess not.

    However I do believe that there is a correlation between the two. When we won the Atlantic Division, Bargnani was a complementary player who came off the bench. With a similar roster over the next few seasons, but with Bargnani appointed as our "second option", we slid out of the playoff picture or barely made it in just to get worked over in the first round. This season, with him as the centerpiece of the team, we were one of the worst in the league.

    I blame Colangelo for that, not Bargnani. But the point I'm trying to make is that Bargnani is not a player worthy of all these accomodations or excuses.
    Of course it's obvious that the rest of the roster would have an effect on the teams record but your post was similar to a majority that only focused the negative directly at one player.

    I agree that Dre isn't worthy of accommodations as well but I also don't see that Raptors making a lot for him. If they were they would have surrounded him by great defenders or at least average ones. Have they allowed him to play (through mistakes) and develop bad habits both offensively and defensively? No question about it for the past 2 and a half years (essentially when Jay took over). But during that time he wasn't the only player who had this luxury as Demar also enjoyed a no consequences for his actions type playing time. When your team is as bad as the Raptors (this past year more then ever) you play your young guys as much as possible. I agree he's been cut some slack but it's not out of the ordinary for young players on bad teams to get the same treatment.

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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Of course it's obvious that the rest of the roster would have an effect on the teams record but your post was similar to a majority that only focused the negative directly at one player.

    I agree that Dre isn't worthy of accommodations as well but I also don't see that Raptors making a lot for him. If they were they would have surrounded him by great defenders or at least average ones. Have they allowed him to play (through mistakes) and develop bad habits both offensively and defensively? No question about it for the past 2 and a half years (essentially when Jay took over). But during that time he wasn't the only player who had this luxury as Demar also enjoyed a no consequences for his actions type playing time. When your team is as bad as the Raptors (this past year more then ever) you play your young guys as much as possible. I agree he's been cut some slack but it's not out of the ordinary for young players on bad teams to get the same treatment.
    Where do you get the name Dre for Andrea? Are you trying to make him sound more masculine?

  5. #25
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    Where do you get the name Dre for Andrea? Are you trying to make him sound more masculine?
    See the bold in your question and let me know if you have any other questions.

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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    See the bold in your question and let me know if you have any other questions.
    Why not call him Rea, And or Ndr if all you are doing is picking three letters out of his name?

  7. #27
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Of course it's obvious that the rest of the roster would have an effect on the teams record but your post was similar to a majority that only focused the negative directly at one player.

    I agree that Dre isn't worthy of accommodations as well but I also don't see that Raptors making a lot for him. If they were they would have surrounded him by great defenders or at least average ones. Have they allowed him to play (through mistakes) and develop bad habits both offensively and defensively? No question about it for the past 2 and a half years (essentially when Jay took over). But during that time he wasn't the only player who had this luxury as Demar also enjoyed a no consequences for his actions type playing time. When your team is as bad as the Raptors (this past year more then ever) you play your young guys as much as possible. I agree he's been cut some slack but it's not out of the ordinary for young players on bad teams to get the same treatment.
    I consider moving him to the PF and squeezing ED and Amir's playing time to be a major accomodation. Not only is Colangelo making an excuse for Bargnani's defensive shortcomings ("he's being miscast as a five" - BC) but he's doing it at the expense of two young players who need playing time to develop in their own right, especially Ed. The hiring of a defensive coach and the talk of acquiring a defensive minded center are two other examples that can be interpreted as an accomodation for Bargnani.

    The difference between DeRozan and Bargnani is that they're in different stages of their development. Bargnani was given the same opportunities that DD has gotten these past two seasons when he first arrived with the team, and I don't recall anyone being upset about it at the time. However he's been here five seasons now and hasn't improved his rebounding or defence a lick. In fact, you can argue that it's gotten worse.

    At what point do you say enough is enough and stop waiting for Bargnani to "show a little more effort" to get those extra couple rebounds or for a lightbulb to go off in his head and for him to stop dogging it defensively. When he's 27? 28? 30? What more motivation should he need at this point? He has a long term deal that pays him great money. He's been given playing time since day one and has enjoyed an increased role every season, culminating in this year where he was given "the man" duties. I honestly wonder why people are so adamant about making it work with him if he can't find it within himself to consistently give his best effort in a situation that 95% of the players in the league would kill for.

    DeRozan turned 22 this week and saw a bigger jump between his first and second season then Bargnani ever has from one year to the next. The thing that ultimately sets them apart for me is that I see the effort from DD every night, which encourages me that he'll be able to fix up the holes in his own defensive game. If he's still the exact same player four years from now but the team still is adamant about him being a major piece going forward then I'll bitch about that too. But for the time being it's a completely different scenario.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    it sounds more hip hop than Drea, which is actually the nickname his teammates use.

  9. #29
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I consider moving him to the PF and squeezing ED and Amir's playing time to be a major accomodation. Not only is Colangelo making an excuse for Bargnani's defensive shortcomings ("he's being miscast as a five" - BC) but he's doing it at the expense of two young players who need playing time to develop in their own right, especially Ed. The hiring of a defensive coach and the talk of acquiring a defensive minded center are two other examples that can be interpreted as an accomodation for Bargnani.

    The difference between DeRozan and Bargnani is that they're in different stages of their development. Bargnani was given the same opportunities that DD has gotten these past two seasons when he first arrived with the team, and I don't recall anyone being upset about it at the time. However he's been here five seasons now and hasn't improved his rebounding or defence a lick. In fact, you can argue that it's gotten worse.

    At what point do you say enough is enough and stop waiting for Bargnani to "show a little more effort" to get those extra couple rebounds or for a lightbulb to go off in his head and for him to stop dogging it defensively. When he's 27? 28? 30? What more motivation should he need at this point? He has a long term deal that pays him great money. He's been given playing time since day one and has enjoyed an increased role every season, culminating in this year where he was given "the man" duties. I honestly wonder why people are so adamant about making it work with him if he can't find it within himself to consistently give his best effort in a situation that 95% of the players in the league would kill for.

    DeRozan turned 22 this week and saw a bigger jump between his first and second season then Bargnani ever has from one year to the next. The thing that ultimately sets them apart for me is that I see the effort from DD every night, which encourages me that he'll be able to fix up the holes in his own defensive game. If he's still the exact same player four years from now but the team still is adamant about him being a major piece going forward then I'll bitch about that too. But for the time being it's a completely different scenario.
    So the accommodation you speak of hasn't even happened yet but is being talked about? Not sure if your aware or not but the season hasn't begun and they haven't made any moves yet for this accommodation you speak of..... If it happens then for sure your comment is relevant but unless you have a crystal ball that sees the future don't see your point. You must understand what is said by management and done isn't always the same thing.

    I think your under the impression that I'm arguing for Dre but I'm simply disputing your flawed comments regarding the team has accommodated to him only.

    As for the comparisons between him and Demar here are the stat lines between them for their first two years. Your right Demar made significant improvements but he also was given a ton more minutes in his second season compared to Dre. Yet again I'm not defending the guy I'm simply showing his situation is not different then others. The treatment/favoritism he's received from management has been blown way out of proportion.

    Bargnani
    06-07 TOR 65 2 25.1 0.427 0.373 0.824 0.8 3.1 3.9 0.8 0.5 0.8 1.65 2.77 11.6
    07-08 TOR 78 53 23.9 0.386 0.345 0.840 0.6 3.1 3.7 1.1 0.3 0.5 1.13 2.71 10.2

    Derozan
    09-10 TOR 77 65 21.6 0.498 0.250 0.763 0.9 2.0 2.9 0.7 0.6 0.2 0.81 2.29 8.6
    10-11 TOR 82 82 34.8 0.467 0.096 0.813 0.9 2.9 3.8 1.8 1.0 0.4 1.76 2.65 17.2

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    So the accommodation you speak of hasn't even happened yet but is being talked about? Not sure if your aware or not but the season hasn't begun and they haven't made any moves yet for this accommodation you speak of..... If it happens then for sure your comment is relevant but unless you have a crystal ball that sees the future don't see your point. You must understand what is said by management and done isn't always the same thing.
    As you so kindly pointed out for me, the NBA season hasn't started yet. I've even heard rumblings that the NBA is in the midst of a lockout. I look forward to your next post where you can either confirm/deny this for me.

    Because of these facts though, the only thing I have to go by at this point in time is what Colangelo said at his end of the season presser, which was the following: 1) Andrea is miscast as a five 2) He's going to play the power forward spot next season for us and 3) we're going to go after a defensive big man to help with Bargnani's defensive shortcomings.

    Are any of these three things guaranteed? Of course not. Maybe none of them will happen, maybe they all will. But please don't act like I'm taking a blind leap or faith or completely talking out of my ass by taking what was said by the president/GM of the franchise during a nationally televised press conference and using it to make some logical deductions.
    I think your under the impression that I'm arguing for Dre but I'm simply disputing your flawed comments regarding the team has accommodated to him only.

    As for the comparisons between him and Demar here are the stat lines between them for their first two years. Your right Demar made significant improvements but he also was given a ton more minutes in his second season compared to Dre. Yet again I'm not defending the guy I'm simply showing his situation is not different then others. The treatment/favoritism he's received from management has been blown way out of proportion.

    Bargnani
    06-07 TOR 65 2 25.1 0.427 0.373 0.824 0.8 3.1 3.9 0.8 0.5 0.8 1.65 2.77 11.6
    07-08 TOR 78 53 23.9 0.386 0.345 0.840 0.6 3.1 3.7 1.1 0.3 0.5 1.13 2.71 10.2

    Derozan
    09-10 TOR 77 65 21.6 0.498 0.250 0.763 0.9 2.0 2.9 0.7 0.6 0.2 0.81 2.29 8.6
    10-11 TOR 82 82 34.8 0.467 0.096 0.813 0.9 2.9 3.8 1.8 1.0 0.4 1.76 2.65 17.2
    I'm impressed by your copy and paste skills but what point of mine are these supposed to dispute exactly? I just got finished saying that Derozan and Bargnani both got similar opportunities during their first two seasons in Toronto.

    Bargnani was given the same opportunities that DD has gotten these past two seasons when he first arrived with the team, and I don't recall anyone being upset about it at the time. However he's been here five seasons now and hasn't improved his rebounding or defence a lick. In fact, you can argue that it's gotten worse.

    What I said is that Derozan had a bigger jump from his first year to the next than Bargnani has ever done. That's true. You were nice enough to even post the stats for me to prove it.

    I also said that Bargnani after five years should be judged differently than DeRozan after two which you didn't bother to mention at all. The last thing I said was that if Derozan has plateaued after 5 seasons but the franchise is still set on having him be a major piece going forward then I'd feel the exact same way as I do about Bargnani now but you didn't mention that either.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Aug 10th, 2011 at 01:34 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    As you so kindly pointed out for me, the NBA season hasn't started yet. I've even heard rumblings that the NBA is in the midst of a lockout. I look forward to your next post where you can either confirm/deny this for me.

    Because of these facts though, the only thing I have to go by at this point in time is what Colangelo said at his end of the season presser, which was the following: 1) Andrea is miscast as a five 2) He's going to play the power forward spot next season for us and 3) we're going to go after a defensive big man to help with Bargnani's defensive shortcomings.

    Are any of these three things guaranteed? Of course not. Maybe none of them will happen, maybe they all will. But please don't act like I'm taking a blind leap or faith or completely talking out of my ass by taking what was said by the president/GM of the franchise during a nationally televised press conference and using it to make some logical deductions.


    I'm impressed by your copy and paste skills but what point of mine are these supposed to dispute exactly? I just got finished saying that Derozan and Bargnani both got similar opportunities during their first two seasons in Toronto.

    Bargnani was given the same opportunities that DD has gotten these past two seasons when he first arrived with the team, and I don't recall anyone being upset about it at the time. However he's been here five seasons now and hasn't improved his rebounding or defence a lick. In fact, you can argue that it's gotten worse.

    I don't feel like re-typing my last message so I suggest you go read it again.
    This will be my last post to you as you obviously have no idea what the discussion was about. It started as you were suggesting he has had things handed to him and that the franchise has accommodated him and the result of this has been a steady decline in wins.

    I simply said I disagreed and didn't see it that way based on comparisons to other highly drafted players by the organization. The lack of moves to accommodate is a another obvious reason why your comment seems flawed. See the bold in your post for what is being said not happened so why bring it up as some fact to validate your post? What about BC looking to get another first rounder how many times... Has that ever happened? So why bring it up?

    For the last time remember what the discussion is about before getting so defensive. It really didn't warrant half a dozen posts from either one of us.

  12. #32
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    He was 3rd option in the Atlantic division championship team and that's when he was a rookie.
    Bargnani was the 4th leading scorer (barely above Juan Dixon), played 25 mpg and only started 2 games. And Toronto won a VERY weak Atlantic Division and got bounced in the first round. Let's not overstate his role or the success of the team, please.
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    Quote ATT wrote: View Post
    Then name me 30 power forwards in the league who are better..?
    It depends on what you mean by "better". Can I name 30 PFs that will help their team win more than Bargnani? I could probably name 40, including Amir and Davis. Can I name 30 who are more "skilled"? No, not in a traditional sense. Of course that doesn't account that fact that you can count rebounding, defense and hustle as skills. And I do.

    You can argue all you want about how he can score and can create mismatch problems and all that. But he's not a very efficient scorer and in the end, he has a negative effect on the team when he's on the floor. In the end, that's the most important thing, in my opinion. If a player doesn't help you win, who cares how much he scores?
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It depends on what you mean by "better". Can I name 30 PFs that will help their team win more than Bargnani? I could probably name 40, including Amir and Davis. Can I name 30 who are more "skilled"? No, not in a traditional sense. Of course that doesn't account that fact that you can count rebounding, defense and hustle as skills. And I do.
    That what I meant, when I was constructing my list. (I think I forgot to put Lewis and Horford on it, too.) Bargnani is a remarkably skilled player, but it's all for naught when he so ineffective.

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    Quote YoungGuns wrote: View Post
    I think we would be alot better of a team if we trade Bargs for a real SF ... I'd be happy to watch:
    PG: Jerryd Bayless
    SG: DeMar DeRozan
    SF: Trade for Bargs
    PF: Ed Davis or Amir Johnson
    C: Jonas Valanciunas

    I could get behind that team just to see if we could cause any damage ... all young and want to make a mark.
    Yeah, I feel the same. We throw Bayless in the fire to see if he's for real. Draft a SF with our high lotto pick. If Bayless fails, then move Bargnani + protected 2012 pick for Kabongo/Rivers/Teague + bad contract.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    Man. I usually agree with your posts, but this list is a bit ridiculous. You would take David Lee over bargs? C'mon. Charlie V? Mbah Moute?

    I understand you are trying to make a point, but this is forced and makes you look like a hater instead of a rationale critic
    For a PF, I value defense and rebounding more. Bargnani's historically bad at rebounding and a very poor defender. If he were put into the role of the role players on that list, he would still hurt the team, because his only asset in his offensive skills would be downplayed, while it being extremely unlikely that he gets better at rebounding and defense to offset that.

    Charlie V scores a bit more efficiently than Bargnani and is a much better rebounder.

    Mbah Moute is a far better rebounder, much better defender. He sucks on offense though, but it's still not as gaping as Bargnani's weaknesses.

    David Lee is one of the best rebounders in the league, and efficient with the offense he uses. He sucks on defense, but overall he's still better than Bargnani.

    If you wanted my list to be 30 players that you think are irrefutably better, then no, I can't make that list.

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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Bargnani
    06-07 TOR 65 2 25.1 0.427 0.373 0.824 0.8 3.1 3.9 0.8 0.5 0.8 1.65 2.77 11.6
    07-08 TOR 78 53 23.9 0.386 0.345 0.840 0.6 3.1 3.7 1.1 0.3 0.5 1.13 2.71 10.2

    Derozan
    09-10 TOR 77 65 21.6 0.498 0.250 0.763 0.9 2.0 2.9 0.7 0.6 0.2 0.81 2.29 8.6
    10-11 TOR 82 82 34.8 0.467 0.096 0.813 0.9 2.9 3.8 1.8 1.0 0.4 1.76 2.65 17.2
    What kind of bigman, PF or C shoots less than 40% from the field?

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    For a PF, I value defense and rebounding more. Bargnani's historically bad at rebounding and a very poor defender. If he were put into the role of the role players on that list, he would still hurt the team, because his only asset in his offensive skills would be downplayed, while it being extremely unlikely that he gets better at rebounding and defense to offset that.

    Charlie V scores a bit more efficiently than Bargnani and is a much better rebounder.

    Mbah Moute is a far better rebounder, much better defender. He sucks on offense though, but it's still not as gaping as Bargnani's weaknesses.

    David Lee is one of the best rebounders in the league, and efficient with the offense he uses. He sucks on defense, but overall he's still better than Bargnani.

    If you wanted my list to be 30 players that you think are irrefutably better, then no, I can't make that list.
    On the point of irrefutable...ok fair enough. Nothing is irrefutable, especially on this site. It would be interesting to find a statistic (maybe one already exists) where you can weigh ability as a function of salary. Is Lee worth what he's being paid versus the aforementioned "'dre"...don't forget about 'dre.

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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    On the point of irrefutable...ok fair enough. Nothing is irrefutable, especially on this site. It would be interesting to find a statistic (maybe one already exists) where you can weigh ability as a function of salary. Is Lee worth what he's being paid versus the aforementioned "'dre"...don't forget about 'dre.
    WHat does a player's salary matter if he doesn't help your team win? I'd rather have, say, Joakim Noah at $15 million per season than Bargnani at $5 million a season because in the end one will help you win and one will not. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd pay any price for players, but, again, it all comes down to winning, not fielding the most cost effective players.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    WHat does a player's salary matter if he doesn't help your team win? I'd rather have, say, Joakim Noah at $15 million per season than Bargnani at $5 million a season because in the end one will help you win and one will not. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd pay any price for players, but, again, it all comes down to winning, not fielding the most cost effective players.
    well fukn said. Too often a players contract gets pulled into a discussion when it's not merited. You want '93 MJ @ x$ ( say 20 mill/year) or are you gonna front like Clyde the glide (one of my favs btw) at $5mill per is a better option?

    If you bean counters are tripping lets just put it this way: 6 chips vs 0.

    And if MJ wasn't balling then then CD woulda been the GOAT 2 guard of that era
    Last edited by minks77; Sat Aug 13th, 2011 at 01:52 AM.

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