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Thread: Fear Amir

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Where to begin....

    NO ONE is taking Kleiza in a trade because he has a career threatening injury and 4 years left on his contract. Trading Amir AND Calderon for a player well past his prime, causes problems in the locker room last season, and a pick outside of the top 10 is a bad deal for the Raptors.

    Keeping Bayless and drafting Kabongo is also probably not the best idea, unless you want a repeat of the TJ Ford/Calderon issue.

    Keeping Bargnani is basically saying you're not making defense a priority and thus, are not trying to build a Championship team. And starting him ahead of Ed Davis, who will be a much better player by the time is ridiculous.

    Other than that I don't have a problem.
    Dwelling a little off topic here, but I'd still find the idea of signing a good free agent center interesting. We could put a line-up out in 2012/13 with a FA center, JV at PF (which might be a good idea anyway because he really needs to get stronger if he's the main inside 'battler', DD at sg. That would leave Bargnani, Johnson and/or Davis with some of our other players as trade chips for an acceptable pg or sf and/or draft pick while keeping a solid big man of the bench and we draft a sf or pg with our own high draft pick. I believe that's the fastest way to getting a real good competitive line-up. (And yes, I haven't mentioned Bayless as I'm not a believer).

    If management decides to go another way and try out a line-up with Bargnani at PF and JV at center I'd be ok with that, but we can get real good real quick if we can get a good free agent center because we have some good assets.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Dwelling a little off topic here, but I'd still find the idea of signing a good free agent center interesting. We could put a line-up out in 2012/13 with a FA center, JV at PF (which might be a good idea anyway because he really needs to get stronger if he's the main inside 'battler', DD at sg. That would leave Bargnani, Johnson and/or Davis with some of our other players as trade chips for an acceptable pg or sf and/or draft pick while keeping a solid big man of the bench and we draft a sf or pg with our own high draft pick. I believe that's the fastest way to getting a real good competitive line-up. (And yes, I haven't mentioned Bayless as I'm not a believer).

    If management decides to go another way and try out a line-up with Bargnani at PF and JV at center I'd be ok with that, but we can get real good real quick if we can get a good free agent center because we have some good assets.
    I have a feeling I might have said something like this before, but if management is truly interesting in becoming a true contender, then they need to keep guys like Davis and Amir and trade guys like Bargnani. Or really Bargnani specifically. All this talk of whether he can play with a defensive center, or whether Cadsey can light a fire under him, or that he can create mismatches on offense ignores one important fact. When push comes to shove, he's not a guy you want "in your foxhole" because he doesn't like doing the dirty work. Even with his offense, you're going to have a tough time winning with him because the only thing important to him is scoring.

    That said, I'm really, really, REALLY, not okay with Bargnani being paired with anyone on the Raptors. He'll always end up hurting the team, and usually at the worst times.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I have a feeling I might have said something like this before, but if management is truly interesting in becoming a true contender, then they need to keep guys like Davis and Amir and trade guys like Bargnani. Or really Bargnani specifically. All this talk of whether he can play with a defensive center, or whether Cadsey can light a fire under him, or that he can create mismatches on offense ignores one important fact. When push comes to shove, he's not a guy you want "in your foxhole" because he doesn't like doing the dirty work. Even with his offense, you're going to have a tough time winning with him because the only thing important to him is scoring.

    That said, I'm really, really, REALLY, not okay with Bargnani being paired with anyone on the Raptors. He'll always end up hurting the team, and usually at the worst times.
    In the first and largest part of my post I had Bargnani traded in case you didn't see that because of the B-word-trigger But let me clarify: at the moment I'm okay with the moves management has made since the start of last season; I like the way they are going. Now, if they decide to let Bargnani stay, I'm submissive enough ("calm and submissive" mr Millan) to not raise hell, but see how things play out. The main reason being that at the moment I'm confident they'd know better than some 'amateur-internet-expert' like me.

    That being sad: I'd really like a line-up with a free agent center and JV at PF, Amir or Davis coming of the bench and trade the other one with Bargnani (and some other players) to get a sf/pg or draft pick. With our own draftpick I think we could put a really good team on the floor!

    Now stop being triggerhappy about B-word sightings for once!

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Dwelling a little off topic here, but I'd still find the idea of signing a good free agent center interesting. We could put a line-up out in 2012/13 with a FA center, JV at PF (which might be a good idea anyway because he really needs to get stronger if he's the main inside 'battler', DD at sg. That would leave Bargnani, Johnson and/or Davis with some of our other players as trade chips for an acceptable pg or sf and/or draft pick while keeping a solid big man of the bench and we draft a sf or pg with our own high draft pick. I believe that's the fastest way to getting a real good competitive line-up. (And yes, I haven't mentioned Bayless as I'm not a believer).

    If management decides to go another way and try out a line-up with Bargnani at PF and JV at center I'd be ok with that, but we can get real good real quick if we can get a good free agent center because we have some good assets.
    If there is a season, restraint is needed this off season. If the Raps could acquire another first round draft pick they could have a very nice core (JV, DD, ED, 2 first round picks) along with complementary pieces in Barbosa, (hopefully - injury recovered) Kleiza, JJ, Amir, (hopefully - live up to off season hype) Alabi, and (hopefully - resign to much more reasonable contract) Calderon to snag a top FA in 2012.

    It might seem highly unlikely but if the Raps have cap space and all these young players (2012 draft will require a true star) and complimentary players Toronto could actually be a nice place for any player who can get over customs. BC did snag Nash from Dallas with best buddy Dirk in free agency and they had only won 29 games the year before.

    Anyways, enough wet dreams for tonight.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    In the first and largest part of my post I had Bargnani traded in case you didn't see that because of the B-word-trigger But let me clarify: at the moment I'm okay with the moves management has made since the start of last season; I like the way they are going. Now, if they decide to let Bargnani stay, I'm submissive enough ("calm and submissive" mr Millan) to not raise hell, but see how things play out. The main reason being that at the moment I'm confident they'd know better than some 'amateur-internet-expert' like me.

    That being sad: I'd really like a line-up with a free agent center and JV at PF, Amir or Davis coming of the bench and trade the other one with Bargnani (and some other players) to get a sf/pg or draft pick. With our own draftpick I think we could put a really good team on the floor!

    Now stop being triggerhappy about B-word sightings for once!
    Unfortunately I'm physically unable to restrain myself when the B-word is mentioned. I'm on medication, but it's not helping. The worst thing is they're suppositories.

    I'm very happy with the moves that Colangelo has made in the last year and a half (as well as the drafting of DeRozan), and while I do believe he knows more about basketball than I do, if he thinks Bargnani can be a part of the future of this team without sabotaging it, then I think he's just plain wrong on this one.

    As for moving Valanciunas to PF and bringing in a free agent center, I'm not quite sure I see the point. Both Davis and Amir are more than capable PFs the Raptors already have under contract, and Valanciunas is a center, first and foremost. A frontcourt rotation of those three would be absolutely terrific, in my opinion. You've got 3 young, athletic big men with good intangibles, who hustle, defend, rebound, have good hands and are efficient offensively. And you can even mix and match them. Why you'd want to overpay a veteran center in order to be able to then trade those players for a SF or PG. If you're going to get a free agent, wouldn't it make sense to get a player at the position you need?
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    As for moving Valanciunas to PF and bringing in a free agent center, I'm not quite sure I see the point. Both Davis and Amir are more than capable PFs the Raptors already have under contract, and Valanciunas is a center, first and foremost. A frontcourt rotation of those three would be absolutely terrific, in my opinion. You've got 3 young, athletic big men with good intangibles, who hustle, defend, rebound, have good hands and are efficient offensively. And you can even mix and match them. Why you'd want to overpay a veteran center in order to be able to then trade those players for a SF or PG. If you're going to get a free agent, wouldn't it make sense to get a player at the position you need?
    Ok, let me take you along in my line of thought, as it includes quite a few premises (allthough not all are logically indispensable). I’ll write them out to make it easier to argue. I’m doing this on the fly, so it might not be all as worked out as need be. This might come down to different views on the center position again, btw.

    1. All contenders and the teams closing in have great size at the pf/c position (with the exception of Miami). (Size/wingspan – most numbers are from the draftcombine)

    Thunder: Perkins (6’10”/7’4” or more) / Ibaka (6’10”/7’4”)

    Memphis: Randolph (6’9”/? but reportedly big) / Gasol (7’1”/?)

    Lakers: (not going to spell this one out)

    Dallas: (two 7’+ guys with 7’2” wingspan at least)

    Celtics: Garnett (6’11”/unreported, but I guess 7’3” at least) Perk.. (oops, worst trade of the year and no longer contending in my view)

    Magic: …

    2. Even though you can get somewhere in the east (and in the regular season), to contend you need to beat those teams and you need to be able to match up with that size and strength (or have two of the top-5-players in the league and a top-25-player).

    3. One of the bigs (usually the one called ‘center’) needs to be able to bang inside.

    a. At the moment, and probably when he comes over next year, Valanciunas gives up too much weight AND strength to be able to battle the better centers. It will take him some years to get to that level. (Again, this might not be a problem in the regular season, but it will be in a series against one of the above mentioned teams).

    b. If we wait until our bigs can bang that might take much more time than is necessary (see 5)

    4. If there is no season at all, combined with a new cap, there might be good possibilities on the FA market; the top teams might not have capspace to sign the freeagents that would normally want to go to a topteam, opening up possibilities for other teams and we will be a very good choice because of the potential.

    5. Right now JV is more a PF than a center because he lacks strength(!)

    6. It’s almost impossible to overpay a good two-way big. They are that rare, even Perkins or Nene, who aren’t all that two-way will be worth a lot in my opinion.

    Conclusions/arguments:

    Based on premise 3 it would be a good idea to position a stronger big next to Valanciunas to do the banging in his first couple of years (might take 2, might take 4, I don’t know). The same goes for Davis. Another possibility might be to start Davis and let JV come off the bench against the second unit.

    Signing a freeagent center leaves more room for improvement at the other positions because we can use superfluous bigs as tradeassets and combine that with the draftpick (or draftpicks depening on the trade). We still can address our other needs; we even have more options to address those needs in the draft if we can get picks in return when we trade Amir or Davis + Bargnani + Calderon or Bayless.

    I should not have mentioned Bargnani, why did I do that?
    Last edited by Soft Euro; Wed Aug 24th, 2011 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Ok, let me take you along in my line of thought, as it includes quite a few premises (allthough not all are logically indispensable). I’ll write them out to make it easier to argue. I’m doing this on the fly, so it might not be all as worked out as need be. This might come down to different views on the center position again, btw.

    1. All contenders and the teams closing in have great size at the pf/c position (with the exception of Miami). (Size/wingspan – most numbers are from the draftcombine)

    Thunder: Perkins (6’10”/7’4” or more) / Ibaka (6’10”/7’4”)

    Memphis: Randolph (6’9”/? but reportedly big) / Gasol (7’1”/?)

    Lakers: (not going to spell this one out)

    Dallas: (two 7’+ guys with 7’2” wingspan at least)

    Celtics: Garnett (6’11”/unreported, but I guess 7’3” at least) Perk.. (oops, worst trade of the year and no longer contending in my view)

    Magic: …

    2. Even though you can get somewhere in the east (and in the regular season), to contend you need to beat those teams and you need to be able to match up with that size and strength (or have two of the top-5-players in the league and a top-25-player).

    3. One of the bigs (usually the one called ‘center’) needs to be able to bang inside.

    a. At the moment, and probably when he comes over next year, Valanciunas gives up too much weight AND strength to be able to battle the better centers. It will take him some years to get to that level. (Again, this might not be a problem in the regular season, but it will be in a series against one of the above mentioned teams).

    b. If we wait until our bigs can bang that might take much more time than is necessary (see 5)

    4. If there is no season at all, combined with a new cap, there might be good possibilities on the FA market; the top teams might not have capspace to sign the freeagents that would normally want to go to a topteam, opening up possibilities for other teams and we will be a very good choice because of the potential.

    5. Right now JV is more a PF than a center because he lacks strength(!)

    6. It’s almost impossible to overpay a good two-way big. They are that rare, even Perkins or Nene, who aren’t all that two-way will be worth a lot in my opinion.

    Conclusions/arguments:

    Based on premise 3 it would be a good idea to position a stronger big next to Valanciunas to do the banging in his first couple of years (might take 2, might take 4, I don’t know). The same goes for Davis. Another possibility might be to start Davis and let JV come off the bench against the second unit.

    Signing a freeagent center leaves more room for improvement at the other positions because we can use superfluous bigs as tradeassets and combine that with the draftpick (or draftpicks depening on the trade). We still can address our other needs; we even have more options to address those needs in the draft if we can get picks in return when we trade Amir or Davis + Bargnani + Calderon or Bayless.

    I should not have mentioned Bargnani, why did I do that?
    I suppose I disagree with your conclusion about JV because I don't hear anyone complaining about Noah's size and strength and he as show the ability to rebound, box out, get put backs etc. and is not as big as JV and weighs 10 pounds less. He is considered one of the best defensive centers in the game. I think it would great if JV added some weight and strength and by all accounts he is trying to. But I think the work ethic and drive he has will compensate for some size and strength in the same way that desire has for Noah.

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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    I suppose I disagree with your conclusion about JV because I don't hear anyone complaining about Noah's size and strength and he as show the ability to rebound, box out, get put backs etc. and is not as big as JV and weighs 10 pounds less. He is considered one of the best defensive centers in the game. I think it would great if JV added some weight and strength and by all accounts he is trying to. But I think the work ethic and drive he has will compensate for some size and strength in the same way that desire has for Noah.
    Noah is an interesting one. I must admit that I haven't seen much of Noah going up against the best centers this year, so I don't know how he matches up with them. Besides Dwight Howard there are not a lot of quality centers in the east he'll have dealt with. I also doubt he is 10 pounds less than JV (when was Noah's last weight for the 'official' numbers on nba.com?). He used to have problems with his strength, but apparently hasn't anymore.

    Two other remarks: First of all weight isn't everything, strength isn't all weight. Mainly JV's lower body strength needs to improve quite a bit, I don't know how much that translates in weight, so I should have frased it differently. The second remark: out of the top of my head I can't come up with many other examples; Chandler isn't the heaviest, don't know about his 'real weight', but he has a lot more lower and upper body strength as well.

    Work ethic and drive can only compensate so much; in a 7 games series you need strength (and hence arguably weight) if you're matched up with the premier big man.

    Btw: does anybody know if players physical measurements are officially taken anytime during their career after the draft?

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Ok, let me take you along in my line of thought, as it includes quite a few premises (allthough not all are logically indispensable). I’ll write them out to make it easier to argue. I’m doing this on the fly, so it might not be all as worked out as need be. This might come down to different views on the center position again, btw.

    1. All contenders and the teams closing in have great size at the pf/c position (with the exception of Miami). (Size/wingspan – most numbers are from the draftcombine)

    Thunder: Perkins (6’10”/7’4” or more) / Ibaka (6’10”/7’4”)

    Memphis: Randolph (6’9”/? but reportedly big) / Gasol (7’1”/?)

    Lakers: (not going to spell this one out)

    Dallas: (two 7’+ guys with 7’2” wingspan at least)

    Celtics: Garnett (6’11”/unreported, but I guess 7’3” at least) Perk.. (oops, worst trade of the year and no longer contending in my view)

    Magic: …
    Of the teams you mentioned as contenders, really only Oklahoma will be a contender by the time the Raptors can conceivably build one (unless Gay vaults into the top tier, I don't see Memphis becoming anything more than a slightly better Atlanta Hawks). Who knows what the makeup of teams will be by then.

    Besides, while Amir and Davis don't have the wingspan of some of those above, wingspan isn't everything. Both Davis and Amir have excellent timing and are above average shotblockers.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    2. Even though you can get somewhere in the east (and in the regular season), to contend you need to beat those teams and you need to be able to match up with that size and strength (or have two of the top-5-players in the league and a top-25-player).
    Again, that may be how it presently looks. Who knows what it will look like in 5 years.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    3. One of the bigs (usually the one called ‘center’) needs to be able to bang inside.

    a. At the moment, and probably when he comes over next year, Valanciunas gives up too much weight AND strength to be able to battle the better centers. It will take him some years to get to that level. (Again, this might not be a problem in the regular season, but it will be in a series against one of the above mentioned teams).

    b. If we wait until our bigs can bang that might take much more time than is necessary (see 5)
    Whether you want to believe it or not, the Raptors are not going to be contending in the next 3 years. And, besides, Valanciunas, Davis and Amir are not shy about getting dirty down low.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    4. If there is no season at all, combined with a new cap, there might be good possibilities on the FA market; the top teams might not have capspace to sign the freeagents that would normally want to go to a topteam, opening up possibilities for other teams and we will be a very good choice because of the potential.
    A big `what if'. Who knows what the free agent scene will like like in the summer of 2012. What is likely, however, is that it will be easier to find a good free agent SF or PG than center.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    5. Right now JV is more a PF than a center because he lacks strength(!)
    Debatable. He's actually not as skinny as weak as was portrayed originally. Besides, right now Valanciunas isn't playing in the NBA. And it's a good bet that he'll probably put on 10-20 lbs over the next year, through simple maturation of his body. And he's already mentioned that he wants to get stronger.

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    6. It’s almost impossible to overpay a good two-way big. They are that rare, even Perkins or Nene, who aren’t all that two-way will be worth a lot in my opinion.
    Saying and doing are two different things. What 2 way center is going to be a) available, b) willing to sign with Toronto and c) young enough that he's still going to be in his prime when the rest of the roster peaks in about 5 years?

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Conclusions/arguments:

    Based on premise 3 it would be a good idea to position a stronger big next to Valanciunas to do the banging in his first couple of years (might take 2, might take 4, I don’t know). The same goes for Davis. Another possibility might be to start Davis and let JV come off the bench against the second unit.

    Signing a freeagent center leaves more room for improvement at the other positions because we can use superfluous bigs as tradeassets and combine that with the draftpick (or draftpicks depening on the trade). We still can address our other needs; we even have more options to address those needs in the draft if we can get picks in return when we trade Amir or Davis + Bargnani + Calderon or Bayless.

    I should not have mentioned Bargnani, why did I do that?
    As I said, the Raptors aren't going to be contending anytime soon, whether or not the Raptors sign a guy like Chris Kaman or Roy Hibbert. Valanciunas may give up some pounds initially, but making him defend PFs, which means defending the perimeter more, isn't going to help either him or the team. And what happens when he's physically ready to play the center position? Do you make another trade?

    The Raptors already have Bargnani as a trade asset, as well as Barbosa. Unless you intend on completely remaking the roster, I don't see needing anymore.

    Right now, I see the Raptors future frontcourt as their biggest strength. They are all young, athletic, with good intangibles and can defend, rebound and score efficiently. Why screw with that?
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Of the teams you mentioned as contenders, really only Oklahoma will be a contender by the time the Raptors can conceivably build one (unless Gay vaults into the top tier, I don't see Memphis becoming anything more than a slightly better Atlanta Hawks). Who knows what the makeup of teams will be by then.
    We differ off opinion on Memphis; if they can keep their team (which might be the problem) I see them absolutely as a contender. They played pretty well in the playoffs and didn't have a healthy Gay. They need some more focus on the defensive end, but that's very well possible with the players they have. I also expect the Lakers to be contending with either top talent going there or (and) Bynum getting healthy.

    Btw I didn't mean that those teams would be the contenders in a few years, just what it seems to take to be contending. That might be different in a couple of years, I think it will not. But if the outlook of the topteams will change, it is my opinion that you will have a contender on your hand if you do have these type of players; that is: bigs that are good defensively or offensively and at least reasonable on the other end.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Whether you want to believe it or not, the Raptors are not going to be contending in the next 3 years. And, besides, Valanciunas, Davis and Amir are not shy about getting dirty down low.
    I know Ν might be overly positve, but (I'm counting from 2012) I think contending within three years might be possible.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    A big `what if'. Who knows what the free agent scene will like like in the summer of 2012. What is likely, however, is that it will be easier to find a good free agent SF or PG than center.
    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Saying and doing are two different things. What 2 way center is going to be a) available, b) willing to sign with Toronto and c) young enough that he's still going to be in his prime when the rest of the roster peaks in about 5 years?
    I 'overshot' here; you are right that there won't be good two-way centers available (except the ungettable Howard). I'll have to tone it down to good one-way and acceptable other-way centers like Jordan, Nene, Gasol all of which might be gettable depending on the new CBA.

    I also think when improvement can be seen because of the actions management takes our future will look much better and we will be a more attractive destination.

    New additions don't all have to peak at the same time as the rest of our roster in my opinion. A good balance in age might even help a team (veteran leadership, youthfull energy, a more natural continuance in the quality of a team; in football (in Europe) balance in teams (not only old or young players but good balance - roughly 3 groups: newbies, prime, veterans) is something many teams strive for).

    The fact that it's easier to get free agents for other positions is one of my problems. Again this has to do with my slight obsession with the rarity of good bigs and my belief that - because they are more available - pg's and sf's can be easier replaced via freeagency or the draft and that we should be really carefull not to overpay for those positions.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Debatable. He's actually not as skinny as weak as was portrayed originally. Besides, right now Valanciunas isn't playing in the NBA. And it's a good bet that he'll probably put on 10-20 lbs over the next year, through simple maturation of his body. And he's already mentioned that he wants to get stronger.
    Good point; we'll have to see.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    As I said, the Raptors aren't going to be contending anytime soon, whether or not the Raptors sign a guy like Chris Kaman or Roy Hibbert. Valanciunas may give up some pounds initially, but making him defend PFs, which means defending the perimeter more, isn't going to help either him or the team. And what happens when he's physically ready to play the center position? Do you make another trade?
    For one, I think Valanciunas will be able to guard on the perimeter (at a reasonable level). When JV is ready, the rotation can change, a natural progression would be to have the center come off the bench for the last year or two of his contract or first year of a new contract.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The Raptors already have Bargnani as a trade asset, as well as Barbosa. Unless you intend on completely remaking the roster, I don't see needing anymore.
    I'm talking about more rosterchanges yes, close to remaking by using the 'assets' (BC-speak). In this scenario we'd only keep DD and Davis or Johnson of last year's roster. But I think a lot of people agree anyway that we need to change at pg, sf and c which means I'm only remaking one more position.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Besides, while Amir and Davis don't have the wingspan of some of those above, wingspan isn't everything. Both Davis and Amir have excellent timing and are above average shotblockers.
    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Right now, I see the Raptors future frontcourt as their biggest strength. They are all young, athletic, with good intangibles and can defend, rebound and score efficiently. Why screw with that?
    I'm not as convinced about our frontcourt in Amir and Davis as you are. ('You know what we need? We need more cowbell!' comes up, but is this the place for SNL-references?). Part of their efficiency is because they don't shoot threes... I don't mean that literally, I mean that they are limited in what they do and for one, at the moment they don't space the floor enough (why did I bring up threes? That will only lead to people getting Bargnani images in their head!).

    We need more from our bigs. I fully agree that a JV/Davis frontcourt can work in the future if at least one of them starts spreading the floor.

    The main argument against it is that it will take more time to develop the team. They both need more strength and more range. I'm looking at ways to shortcut the development of the team. You mentioned that we won't be contending for years to come; I want to be contending quickly! (damnit).

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    Soft Euro,

    Memphis is a team that has too many question marks. They overachieved in the playoffs and they don't have a top tier player on their team, they only won 47 games in the regular season, they aren't a good defensive team. The biggest thing they had going for them in the playoffs was that they matched up well against the teams they faced. A team with Zach Randolph as the best player isn't going very far.

    And what it takes to be a contender is talent. Chicago won 62 games and made it to the Conference Finals with Boozer, who's and undersized PF, and Noah, an undersized center. Miami, the other team in the Finals, had a very undersized center.

    Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.

    And you can't speed up the development process. This is a 22 win team that is more than just a move or two from contending.

    It's my feeling that of the players under contract, only two I can definitely being part of a contending Raptors team, in 4 or 5 years. And that's Davis and Amir. I like DeRozan and I am optimistic about his future, but he's still a long way off from being a rotation player on a contender. Both Amir and Davis have the tools to be very good role players on a Championship team, because they have the intangibles and do the dirty work. DeRozan can't be a role player right now. He doesn't do enough of the little things. He's not a good defender so can't come in and defend, nor is he a good 3 point shooter, so he can't play off anyone. His role needs to be one main options (2 or 3) on offense, but he's simply not good enough, yet.

    Unfortunately ALL the young players need time to develop, and you either play them and live with the consequences (as the Thunder did) or you get veterans and sit them to try and win. You can't have both. Personally, I like DeRozan, Davis, Amir and Valanciunas enough that I'm willing to wait for them to develop.
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    The Raptors are incredibly far from contending right now. Ineffably far. If everything goes well, we'll be stuck in a Hawks/Dallas like treadmill, with 50-win seasons and all. Amir's the only player right now that truly help a contending team.
    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    I'm not as convinced about our frontcourt in Amir and Davis as you are. ('You know what we need? We need more cowbell!' comes up, but is this the place for SNL-references?). Part of their efficiency is because they don't shoot threes... I don't mean that literally, I mean that they are limited in what they do and for one, at the moment they don't space the floor enough (why did I bring up threes? That will only lead to people getting Bargnani images in their head!).
    What? Not shooting threes has nothing to do with their efficiency, nor is is needed for a PF to shoot three. DD and JJ are the problems here, not Amir and Davis. If you wanna talk about spreading the floor then you should have saying that they need a reliable 15 foot jumper, which Amir has, and Davis can develop.

    Also, the reason why the team is at this point is because they've tried to take shortcuts.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Soft Euro,

    Memphis is a team that has too many question marks. They overachieved in the playoffs and they don't have a top tier player on their team, they only won 47 games in the regular season, they aren't a good defensive team. The biggest thing they had going for them in the playoffs was that they matched up well against the teams they faced. A team with Zach Randolph as the best player isn't going very far.

    And what it takes to be a contender is talent. Chicago won 62 games and made it to the Conference Finals with Boozer, who's and undersized PF, and Noah, an undersized center. Miami, the other team in the Finals, had a very undersized center.

    Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.

    And you can't speed up the development process. This is a 22 win team that is more than just a move or two from contending.

    It's my feeling that of the players under contract, only two I can definitely being part of a contending Raptors team, in 4 or 5 years. And that's Davis and Amir. I like DeRozan and I am optimistic about his future, but he's still a long way off from being a rotation player on a contender. Both Amir and Davis have the tools to be very good role players on a Championship team, because they have the intangibles and do the dirty work. DeRozan can't be a role player right now. He doesn't do enough of the little things. He's not a good defender so can't come in and defend, nor is he a good 3 point shooter, so he can't play off anyone. His role needs to be one main options (2 or 3) on offense, but he's simply not good enough, yet.

    Unfortunately ALL the young players need time to develop, and you either play them and live with the consequences (as the Thunder did) or you get veterans and sit them to try and win. You can't have both. Personally, I like DeRozan, Davis, Amir and Valanciunas enough that I'm willing to wait for them to develop.
    DeMar is the guy I have my money on the most to be a key contributor to a contender. He has shown to be able to contribute in several important ways. His off ball game is impeccable. He has shown to constantly be able to knock down that 18-20 foot shot down. He is an excellent student of the game. His Athleticism rivals the best in the league. He is only entering his 3rd year as a player. Coming off a very nice sophomore showcase, realistically what more do you want? I could go on all day. He has the undoubted desire to not only get better, but to be the best. His defense, handles and 3 point shooting can use a lot of attention.

    Allow me to stress that limiting a player, because of his inability to shoot 3 point shots, does not equate that he is ineffective at putting the ball in the hoop. Although having a 3 point shot would open up his game to a whole new level. It is not the end of the world. As long as you get the job done I'm not too concerned with how you do it. Michael Jordan had a horrible 3 point shooting percentage coming into the league, but that did not stop him from being who he is.This off-season I've read numerous post about DeMar hooping it up, training day in and day out. One post on his twitter wall wrote. 500 mid range 500 long range. Another recent post read something along the lines of Shooting jumpers till my arms fall off. His 3 point shot will get better mark my words. He has the tools to be a great player one day. Don't count him out yet (I am not saying you are, I actually read your posts).

    Who was the last 2nd year player to have back to back 30+Point games? Somebody by the name of Vince Carter, the greatest raptor of all time. He put T.O. on the map plain and simple. IMO he is just as important as any other player in the core moving forward. You are only as strong as your weakest link. He is the only player I would consider a franchise player on this team right now.
    Last edited by Ambidextrious; Thu Aug 25th, 2011 at 12:48 AM.

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    Quote Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
    DeMar is the guy I have my money on the most to be a key contributor to a contender. He has shown to be able to contribute in several important ways. His off ball game is impeccable. He has shown to constantly be able to knock down that 18-20 foot shot down. He is an excellent student of the game. His Athleticism rivals the best in the league. He is only entering his 3rd year as a player. Coming off a very nice sophomore showcase, realistically what more do you want? I could go on all day. He has the undoubted desire to not only get better, but to be the best. His defense, handles and 3 point shooting can use a lot of attention.

    Allow me to stress that limiting a player, because of his inability to shoot 3 point shots, does not equate that he is ineffective at putting the ball in the hoop. Although having a 3 point shot would open up his game to a whole new level. It is not the end of the world. As long as you get the job done I'm not too concerned with how you do it. Michael Jordan had a horrible 3 point shooting percentage coming into the league, but that did not stop him from being who he is.This off-season I've read numerous post about DeMar hooping it up, training day in and day out. One post on his twitter wall wrote. 500 mid range 500 long range. Another recent post read something along the lines of Shooting jumpers till my arms fall off. His 3 point shot will get better mark my words. He has the tools to be a great player one day. Don't count him out yet (I am not saying you are, I actually read your posts).

    Who was the last 2nd year player to have back to back 30+Point games? Somebody by the name of Vince Carter, the greatest raptor of all time. He put T.O. on the map plain and simple. IMO he is just as important as any other player in the core moving forward. You are only as strong as your weakest link. He is the only player I would consider a franchise player on this team right now.
    I said that I was very optimistic about DeRozan, for the reasons you stated. I think he's got a good chance to be an All-Star, especially with his work ethic. I disagree about him becoming a franchise player, though. He simply hasn't displayed the skills of a future franchise player. By 21, you can usually see dominating skills from a franchise player. DeRozan still simply has too many holes in his game. He's not good defensively, he's not a good ball handler, he needs to work on his passing, his rebounding needs work.

    As for his 3 point shot, I've said previously that DeRozan doesn't need one in order to excel. My point about bringing it up is that he would need one in order to be a role player on a contender.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I said that I was very optimistic about DeRozan, for the reasons you stated. I think he's got a good chance to be an All-Star, especially with his work ethic. I disagree about him becoming a franchise player, though. He simply hasn't displayed the skills of a future franchise player. By 21, you can usually see dominating skills from a franchise player. DeRozan still simply has too many holes in his game. He's not good defensively, he's not a good ball handler, he needs to work on his passing, his rebounding needs work.

    As for his 3 point shot, I've said previously that DeRozan doesn't need one in order to excel. My point about bringing it up is that he would need one in order to be a role player on a contender.
    Okay thats fair, you are entitled to your own opinion. I can see where you are coming from when you say DeMar is not a franchise player. I do not agree that you usually can see the dominating skills in a player at that age. I can not name any off the bat at the moment. I'm sure there are some players that develop throughout the years into solid franchise players. Over time, I'm sure DeRozan will be able to improve on his weaknesses and become a good franchise player. What should help him that we have a world class organization where he can go to and get the best help there is to take him to where he needs to go. The Raptors organization has taken Chris Bosh and Vince Carter quite the long way in Toronto. I am sure they can do the same for DeMar.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I said that I was very optimistic about DeRozan, for the reasons you stated. I think he's got a good chance to be an All-Star, especially with his work ethic. I disagree about him becoming a franchise player, though. He simply hasn't displayed the skills of a future franchise player. By 21, you can usually see dominating skills from a franchise player. DeRozan still simply has too many holes in his game. He's not good defensively, he's not a good ball handler, he needs to work on his passing, his rebounding needs work.

    As for his 3 point shot, I've said previously that DeRozan doesn't need one in order to excel. My point about bringing it up is that he would need one in order to be a role player on a contender.
    Three years removed from high school with only 1 year in college, I like where he has come in a short time. All those deficiencies will surely improve - in time - given the improvements he has shown. This of course is just my opinion and I was ready to throw in the towel on him at the start of last season.

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    couple things here:

    SoftEuro - I think size is an incredible asset to have in this league. But moving Jonas to PF and trading one of our better players in an attempt to win in the short term is not a good idea in my opinion. This team will not be a contender for a while anyways.

    Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.
    amen.

    Derozan - he NEEDS to add a 3pt threat to his game. I'm not a 'yeah 3pter' guy, but you need that diversity and threat from your perimeter players to keep the D honest. There is a reason his position is called shooting guard and not extra-small forward.

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    Adding a 3pt shot would be huge boost to him on the offensive end no doubt about it. I'd love to see him be able to knock down the corner 3 consistantly this year and slowly branch out to the rest of the arc. Corner 3, tightening up the handle and more aggresivness on the defensive end are the 3 things on my Demar summer wish list.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Soft Euro,

    Memphis is a team that has too many question marks. They overachieved in the playoffs and they don't have a top tier player on their team, they only won 47 games in the regular season, they aren't a good defensive team. The biggest thing they had going for them in the playoffs was that they matched up well against the teams they faced. A team with Zach Randolph as the best player isn't going very far.

    And what it takes to be a contender is talent. Chicago won 62 games and made it to the Conference Finals with Boozer, who's and undersized PF, and Noah, an undersized center. Miami, the other team in the Finals, had a very undersized center.

    Besides, it's usually a bad idea to build your team by trying to match up with others. Those teams usually don't go all the way. You need to build a team that other teams try and match up against.
    There are a lot of teams with talent, only one that wins the championship. I'm not trying to match-up with teams, I happen to think that combining talent with size is the way to a championship (of course more things are important, but that's evident). I showed the size-stats of those teams bigs to indicate what I think is the way to go, not what we need to match-up with. From that viewpoint (good or bad) it follows that you have to beat those teams to win, but that does not mean I try to match-up with them.

    Chicago does good in the regular season and can come far in the east because there are few teams in the east (at the moment) with championship caliber bigs. In my opinion that's what's holding back the Hawks; they got plenty of talent, but not enough talent is combined with size at the position of the bigs.

    We'll see about Memphis (if they can keep their players and Randolph doesn't come back out of shape (or in jail) after the lockout). I think with Gay healthy next year they'll go 50+ and will be contending.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And you can't speed up the development process. This is a 22 win team that is more than just a move or two from contending.
    I can't see why we can't be speeding it up; as you correctly pointed out this would be almost remaking the roster, so indeed more than a few moves. I also think that it would not be gambling away the future as it wouldn't be trading away all young players to get veterans to win now.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It's my feeling that of the players under contract, only two I can definitely being part of a contending Raptors team, in 4 or 5 years. And that's Davis and Amir. I like DeRozan and I am optimistic about his future, but he's still a long way off from being a rotation player on a contender. Both Amir and Davis have the tools to be very good role players on a Championship team, because they have the intangibles and do the dirty work. DeRozan can't be a role player right now. He doesn't do enough of the little things. He's not a good defender so can't come in and defend, nor is he a good 3 point shooter, so he can't play off anyone. His role needs to be one main options (2 or 3) on offense, but he's simply not good enough, yet.
    Completely agree on DeRozan. I didn't mention him at all as I withhold further judgement until after a year of working with the new coaching staff.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately ALL the young players need time to develop, and you either play them and live with the consequences (as the Thunder did) or you get veterans and sit them to try and win. You can't have both. Personally, I like DeRozan, Davis, Amir and Valanciunas enough that I'm willing to wait for them to develop.
    I like both and don't see why that's not possible. Why can you only have young players or veterans? Why not have a mixed roster (with an emphasis on youth). Btw wouldn't another problem with waiting for all your players to peak be that their contracts will also peak at the same time).

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