View Poll Results: Grade Valanciunas' Season

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Thread: Everything Valanciunas

  1. #2961
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    The one where he left Plumlee to help?

    *His help was late...
    -But if he gets there earlier and the shot still goes over him, he really can't do anything about Plumlee.
    -If he gets there earlier, Deron maybe has the open passing lane because it's hard to help and take away the passing lane at the same time.
    -If he never leaves Plumlee, Deron gets a layup. (pretty sure even though the help wasn't as timely as it could be, it still influenced the awful layup Deron ended up throwing up there)

    Meanwhile, it's a mismatch as Amir is guarding Deron. Not exactly a super-easy play to defend as a team. It was basically a very bad situation as soon as Deron got the step on him, especially since Lowry was the closest thing to help as he was cheating off his man in the middle, but Deron took the outside lane away from the help instead. (Amir played a great game so I don't want to rag on him, but his stance on this play was awful, basically facing straight up to Deron without moving his feet much, and letting Deron dictate where he would go. Basic D is try to force your man where you want him to go) **THere must've been a lack of communication otherwise Amir should be forcing him to the help instead of just trying to play him straight up.
    I agree it was a bad situation, but JV's help offered literally nothing. He jumped up and didn't even really bother going for the ball, because he knew there was no chance. Just gift wrapped the offensive board to Plumlee.

    Now, of course, these are growing pains and are to be expected, but when he's on the court, I feel like our defense is significantly worse and he really doesn't offer much on offense either...

    The 5 is by far our weakest position.

    I'm just hoping he develops quickly, because if we can keep this team together and not have a gaping hole at center, we're looking good.

  2. #2962
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I agree it was a bad situation, but JV's help offered literally nothing. He jumped up and didn't even really bother going for the ball, because he knew there was no chance. Just gift wrapped the offensive board to Plumlee.

    Now, of course, these are growing pains and are to be expected, but when he's on the court, I feel like our defense is significantly worse and he really doesn't offer much on offense either...

    The 5 is by far our weakest position.

    I'm just hoping he develops quickly, because if we can keep this team together and not have a gaping hole at center, we're looking good.
    It's the toughest spot to learn.

    Our D is definitely worse, but I don't know how significantly. He's still probably the best (though not consistently) low-post defender we have all around if we need to guard a big opposing C. Amir is still too skinny. Hansbrough can bang but gives up too much size on Cs. Hayes is solid but is far too short and generally unathletic (which make his impact quite inconsistent). Jonas' post D is not that bad, and should get better as he learns to better push his man out, which is really his biggest weakness there.

    And while his help D needs a lot of work, the times he does things right, there's no denying the value of his height and even his size. It's hard to finish over him or through him when he's vertical.

    JV gets exposed big time when teams force rotations on p'n'rs or drive and kick action. These are often the hardest things to learn for any C.

    They are not things even the best defensive Cs in the league get that fast. Drummond is just as much a nightmare in terms of defensive IQ (arguably worse). Hibbert himself has talked about how it took him years (too lazy to look for the story) to nail down his help D (*how it was very frustrating and how he thought he'd never get it). Chandler was a foul-prone overaggressive mess who struggled pretty much until he got to the Hornets. Howard still struggles with the p'n'r. Maybe JV is never elite in this area, but it's far too early to be worried. Rivers' big mission in going to LAC was turning Jordan in a top-flight defensive C, which he knew would be key to their ability to contend, as Jordan frequently made mental mistakes and has improved quite a bit under Rivers. It just takes time, patience, and the right teaching (not sure Casey is bad for that on D, but question his overall impact on development).

    And has been talked about so much around here, at least part of his offensive struggles are clearly related to usg (not quantity, but quality). So I won't touch those again.

    Finally, on this team, don't know how much I care. When JV (and Ross) starts to peak, Lowry will probably be at least 29 or 30. DeMar could be looking for a new contract. We definitely have questions at PF, which we have a decent platoon at, but no long-term security. I'm not convinced this team can truly be built into a contender. It seems like it's still likely a very good piece away even as is. And it seems like even together in the best case, without a significant addition, a real championship window may not open til JV/Ross' 4th season if they both develop very well, when questions about keeping that team together or potential decline of other pieces may arise.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 02:06 AM.

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  4. #2963
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    S to the tiff


  5. #2964
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    Stiff
    I been singing and rapping I make a killin' in both If i had to choose a Jackson man I'm feelin' like Bo ~ king drizzy

  6. #2965
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Our D is definitely worse, but I don't know how significantly. He's still probably the best (though not consistently) low-post defender we have all around if we need to guard a big opposing C. Hansbrough can bang but gives up too much size on Cs.

    And while his help D needs a lot of work, the times he does things right, there's no denying the value of his height and even his size. It's hard to finish over him or through him when he's vertical.

    JV gets exposed big time when teams force rotations on p'n'rs or drive and kick action. These are often the hardest things to learn for any C.
    Great post, thanks for taking the time to walk through all that.

    I completely agree that he's clearly still developing, and I'm not really commenting on his long term potential (although you've reassured me there).

    As of right now, Jonas's on-off splits are -6.9. We're 7 points worse per 100 possessions when he's on the floor, than when he's off. This agrees with my eye test.

    I personally almost always prefer to see the Amir/2Pat duo on the floor, or with 2Pat out, to see Hansbrough bashing heads down low.

    Every time we play an athletic, strong center, they seem to tear us up. Guys like Gortat, Pekovic, Blatche, Jordan seem to just do what they want to us.

    Every time they show the points in the paint spread mid-game, we seem to be getting killed in that too.

    Anyways, I know big men take a long time to develop, and I'm sure Jonas will come around. But right now, any playing time he gets isn't really helping the team win games, but is contributing to his development instead.

    EDIT:

    For comparison's sake, the rest of our starters:

    Amir Johnson: net +2.9
    Terrence Ross: net -0.2
    Demar Derozan: net -0.8
    Kyle Lowry: net +4.3

    Patrick Patterson: net +8.3
    Tyler Hansbrough: net +2.5
    John Salmons: net +4.3 (his basketball-reference page is sooo long lol)
    Last edited by stooley; Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 10:55 AM.

  7. #2966
    Raptors Republic All-Star consmap's Avatar
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    Does anybody else think that JV plays a bit better near the 2nd half of games? I remember in that one game against Cleveland he went off in the 3rd quarter. In Minnesota in the 4th he grabbed some huge O boards to get us extra possessions. And last night he did a better job in the 3rd after having a miserable 2nd. I think he's more than capable of learning from his mistakes quickly when given the chance


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  8. #2967
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Every time we play an athletic, strong center, they seem to tear us up. Guys like Gortat, Pekovic, Blatche, Jordan seem to just do what they want to us.
    Part of that is generally on the peronnel we have. If Jonas isn't playing well, no one else is a good matchup.

    In that Wiz game, Jonas was struggling against Gortat....The thing is, nobody did anything to slow him down. Gortat did just as much, if not more, damage with Jonas out even though Jonas was playing shitty.

    In the Minny game, Jonas struggled with Pek early, but was a huge difference maker in the 2nd half. Played him much stronger and totally slowed him down.

    Again, the problem is that our other guys, while smarter/quicker defenders, are just more limited in matchups. Either of the above guys can push or go over our other bigs. The same goes for a guy like Blatche who is too big for Amir/2Pat, and too quick with the ball for Tyler. And a guy like Jordan, who is too athletic/long for all our guys, and who actually has been played a lot by our other guys since Casey has put JV on Blake to try and match up strength, since Amir tends to get destroyed by Griffin.

    They're all natural PFs, and none of them other than Hansbrough are very strong. Part of the reason the Amir/2Pat duo works so well is that if the other team doesn't have a great post threat (which is not unusual in this day and age of lacking quality low-post bigs), they're far and away the quickest guys defensively, and so the best at being in position. Both have struggled in certain ways if forced to guard bigger matchups in the post.

  9. #2968
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Part of that is generally on the peronnel we have. If Jonas isn't playing well, no one else is a good matchup.

    In that Wiz game, Jonas was struggling against Gortat....The thing is, nobody did anything to slow him down. Gortat did just as much, if not more, damage with Jonas out even though Jonas was playing shitty.

    In the Minny game, Jonas struggled with Pek early, but was a huge difference maker in the 2nd half. Played him much stronger and totally slowed him down.

    Again, the problem is that our other guys, while smarter/quicker defenders, are just more limited in matchups. Either of the above guys can push or go over our other bigs. The same goes for a guy like Blatche who is too big for Amir/2Pat, and too quick with the ball for Tyler. And a guy like Jordan, who is too athletic/long for all our guys, and who actually has been played a lot by our other guys since Casey has put JV on Blake to try and match up strength, since Amir tends to get destroyed by Griffin.

    They're all natural PFs, and none of them other than Hansbrough are very strong. Part of the reason the Amir/2Pat duo works so well is that if the other team doesn't have a great post threat (which is not unusual in this day and age of lacking quality low-post bigs), they're far and away the quickest guys defensively, and so the best at being in position. Both have struggled in certain ways if forced to guard bigger matchups in the post.
    Well said. You also touched on one of the reasons fans are so excited by JV as a prospect. He can become a legit post-up guy, and in a league where there aren't many, he can therefore create the match-up problem for other teams. Growing pains to get there are to be expected.

  10. #2969
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    S to the tiff

    Thank u, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it
    I been singing and rapping I make a killin' in both If i had to choose a Jackson man I'm feelin' like Bo ~ king drizzy

  11. #2970
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote UnderdogRaptors wrote: View Post
    Thank u, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it
    yo underdograptors did you get banned from realgm again? Hhahahaha

  12. #2971
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Part of that is generally on the peronnel we have. If Jonas isn't playing well, no one else is a good matchup.

    In that Wiz game, Jonas was struggling against Gortat....The thing is, nobody did anything to slow him down. Gortat did just as much, if not more, damage with Jonas out even though Jonas was playing shitty.

    In the Minny game, Jonas struggled with Pek early, but was a huge difference maker in the 2nd half. Played him much stronger and totally slowed him down.

    Again, the problem is that our other guys, while smarter/quicker defenders, are just more limited in matchups. Either of the above guys can push or go over our other bigs. The same goes for a guy like Blatche who is too big for Amir/2Pat, and too quick with the ball for Tyler. And a guy like Jordan, who is too athletic/long for all our guys, and who actually has been played a lot by our other guys since Casey has put JV on Blake to try and match up strength, since Amir tends to get destroyed by Griffin.

    They're all natural PFs, and none of them other than Hansbrough are very strong. Part of the reason the Amir/2Pat duo works so well is that if the other team doesn't have a great post threat (which is not unusual in this day and age of lacking quality low-post bigs), they're far and away the quickest guys defensively, and so the best at being in position. Both have struggled in certain ways if forced to guard bigger matchups in the post.
    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Well said. You also touched on one of the reasons fans are so excited by JV as a prospect. He can become a legit post-up guy, and in a league where there aren't many, he can therefore create the match-up problem for other teams. Growing pains to get there are to be expected.
    I agree that he has done very good at times with taking the bigger people out of games, or at least doing better than anyone else on the team.

    Regardless of how he is playing, one thing I notice when he leaves the floor is how bad we become at rebounding. Yes he makes mistakes and is a work in progress, but I do not think he is a detriment when he is out there. ESPECIALLY if he is being engaged on offense in the PnR by his teammates. He really don't think that the majority of the time he is detrimental, he is constantly pushing and leaning and taking up space on both sides of the floor in terms of rebounding...and IMO rebounding is one of the most improtant aspects of the game.***

    I really like how we match up with teams when we have him in our lineup vs the small ball line-ups. I would like to see a Hansborough-Val lineup more often when teams are crashing the boards well. They could completely change the look of the Raps....rather than that stupid fn Novak-Hayes thing Casey runs when we get outrebounded to "give us a different look" and "make them go small to help our rebounding"


    ***since the counting of stats (so like tens of thousands of games), the team that has won the rebounding battle has won the game something like 64% of the time (don't know exact)...JV is a very good rebounder already and it does show when he is not on the floor
    Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 05:34 PM.

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  14. #2972
    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I really like how we match up with teams when we have him in our lineup vs the small ball line-ups. I would like to see a Hansborough-Val lineup more often when teams are crashing the boards well. They could completely change the look of the Raps....rather than that stupid fn Novak-Hayes thing Casey runs when we get outrebounded to "give us a different look" and "make them go small to help our rebounding"

    It's not just a Casey thing though. So few coaches seem willing to back their big players against a smaller lineup. So often I see a coach make a switch to a smaller lineup, and the opposing coach instantly counters with a small lineup of his own. Even better Centers than JV get dragged in such situations.

  15. #2973
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    Quote 4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    yo underdograptors did you get banned from realgm again? Hhahahaha
    No lol who is this
    I been singing and rapping I make a killin' in both If i had to choose a Jackson man I'm feelin' like Bo ~ king drizzy

  16. #2974
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote BigCamB wrote: View Post
    It's not just a Casey thing though. So few coaches seem willing to back their big players against a smaller lineup. So often I see a coach make a switch to a smaller lineup, and the opposing coach instantly counters with a small lineup of his own. Even better Centers than JV get dragged in such situations.
    Can easily say the same about it going the other way.

    Team's don't go into Indiana thinking they will be able to play small ball because Indiana makes you play big. We should look to do the same because our big man rotation is one of the strongest in the league. Casey however is not playing to one of our strengths.

  17. #2975
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Can easily say the same about it going the other way.

    Team's don't go into Indiana thinking they will be able to play small ball because Indiana makes you play big. We should look to do the same because our big man rotation is one of the strongest in the league. Casey however is not playing to one of our strengths.
    I'm not saying I approve, just commenting on what I see teams do. It really pisses me off when teams don't back their size to beat smaller lineups and resort to the easy way out and match the smaller lineup. I actually do see people try and go small to beat Indiana fairly often. For example Golden State tried even though they have an outstanding defensive center. Teams like Indiana and Memphis back their size against anyone, and yeh..i'd like it if Casey would do the same.

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  19. #2976
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Nice article about how Magloire is working with JV.
    http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...maal-magloire/

  20. #2977
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Nice article about how Magloire is working with JV.
    http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...maal-magloire/
    Geez, it's no wonder Jonas is struggling so much
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  22. #2978
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Getting really tired of all this JV is being mishandled by Casey talk. The guy is a 7 foot giant but everyone is so concerned about how fragile his confidence is. If it's that fragile he shouldn't be in the league.

    Take a look at some videos on Youtube of Popovich and Tony Parker when Parker was entering the league....heck how Pop coaches Parker now even.

  23. #2979
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Getting really tired of all this JV is being mishandled by Casey talk. The guy is a 7 foot giant but everyone is so concerned about how fragile his confidence is. If it's that fragile he shouldn't be in the league.

    Take a look at some videos on Youtube of Popovich and Tony Parker when Parker was entering the league....heck how Pop coaches Parker now even.
    Couldn't agree more


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  24. #2980
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Getting really tired of all this JV is being mishandled by Casey talk. The guy is a 7 foot giant but everyone is so concerned about how fragile his confidence is. If it's that fragile he shouldn't be in the league.

    Take a look at some videos on Youtube of Popovich and Tony Parker when Parker was entering the league....heck how Pop coaches Parker now even.
    you gotta understand not every player is the same

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