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Thread: The Raptors are NOT young

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default The Raptors are NOT young

    Every time I've read the forums or listened to an interview or watched a Raptors game inevitably the narrative of "we are a young team" gets mentioned. Every time I read or hear this I want to scream. This is why it was so refreshing to read the RR interview with Jack Armstrong earlier this week:

    Iíll say this: Kyle Lowry and DeMar DeRozan are in the primes of their career. This is not a young team. I donít buy into that whatsoever. Jonas Valanciunas and Terrence Ross are going into their fourth year, theyíre the only two guys that are young and even play.

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/...ack-armstrong/
    When looking at straight average age, the Raptors are around middle of the pack in the NBA at 13th and 26.2 years.
    When looking at experience, the Raptors are again middle of the pack at 15th with 4.6 years. Source: http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison


    However when you break down the Raptors roster, the guys who actually play are mostly all in the prime of their careers or the tail end of prime:

    Lowry: 29
    'Bro: 29
    Vasquez: 28
    Lou: 28
    JJ: 28
    Amir: 28*
    PP: 26
    DD: 25 (26 in August)
    Ross: 24
    JV: 23 (just turned)

    Bebe is just 22 (23 in July) and Bruno is 19 (20 in September).

    *Amir is the oldest 28 year old I've ever seen.


    But the only thing that made me scream louder than the false "we are young" narrative is the you need VETS to win. I'm tired of this. You don't need vets - you need talent.


    For anyone who follows forums, it should be no secret I want to see Lou and Amir walk with Lowry and/or DeRozan traded. People assume this is going to lead to "tanking". I don't agree it is a guaranteed outcome. They might not make the playoffs next season (especially if Lowry is traded) but a step back in the short term is really the only chance to get beyond the current situation of 1st round hiccup**. Houston is a great example of building with youth:

    2011-12: Starting in the lockout shortened season, the Rockets finished 34-32. 10 of the 19 players who played on the roster that season were younger than 25 with 14 being 25 or younger. For the players who actually played though, they were all the vets. The Rockets did not make the playoffs though - victim to the West dominance over last number of seasons.

    2012-13: This is the beginning of the Beard. Using their youth, vets on manageable contracts, and draft pick stash the Rockets traded for James Harden. Yet again this was a young roster with 14 of 20 guys who appeared that season were younger than 25. More importantly 5 of their top 7 rotation were younger than 25. Despite the increased reliance on youth the team managed to increase their WP to 45-37. They also made the playoffs where they lost in 1st round to OKC 4-2 with 2 losses decided by 3 points each.

    2013-14: Combined with their star guard, youth, and cap space, the Rockets managed to sign a max contract in Dwight Howard. Despite this, the Rockets still had a young roster with 8 of 18 players on roster that season under 25. As younger guys have grown older over course of last 2 seasons, we now see 12 of the 18 roster players 25 or younger. The Rockets increased their regular season wins to 54-28. They lost once again in first round 4-2 to Portland with 3 games going to OT (1-2) and the final game a 1 point loss.

    2014-15: With significant cap space, Rockets add a veteran Ariza to team. 9 of 20 roster players are still under 25 and 10/20 are 25 or younger. The rotation is now older due to injuries, free agent signings, and younger players who developed getting older. The team had 56 wins and now is in West conference finals where, through use of DLeague, a player like Clint Capela (20) develops and makes an impact in the playoffs when called upon.

    This is how a young team grows and develops in to a winning team.


    Again, the Raptors are NOT a young team.

    Hopefully the Raptors start to make the fictitious narrative of being a young team a reality. It might require a small step back now but, with the majority of the Raptor rotation 28 or older, the expiration date on this core is sooner than later. Attempting to stick with this core is only going to ensure a bigger and longer step back in the near future.


    **If you disagree, please explain how the Raptors get better with letting all FA walk and $16M in cap space OR keeping Lou/Amir and working with exceptions and minimum contracts. I just don't see it....doesn't mean I'm right though!
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic All-Star Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Every time I've read the forums or listened to an interview or watched a Raptors game inevitably the narrative of "we are a young team" gets mentioned. Every time I read or hear this I want to scream. This is why it was so refreshing to read the RR interview with Jack Armstrong earlier this week:



    When looking at straight average age, the Raptors are around middle of the pack in the NBA at 13th and 26.2 years.
    When looking at experience, the Raptors are again middle of the pack at 15th with 4.6 years. Source: http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison


    However when you break down the Raptors roster, the guys who actually play are mostly all in the prime of their careers or the tail end of prime:

    Lowry: 29
    'Bro: 29
    Vasquez: 28
    Lou: 28
    JJ: 28
    Amir: 28*
    PP: 26
    DD: 25 (26 in August)
    Ross: 24
    JV: 23 (just turned)

    Bebe is just 22 (23 in July) and Bruno is 19 (20 in September).

    *Amir is the oldest 28 year old I've ever seen.


    But the only thing that made me scream louder than the false "we are young" narrative is the you need VETS to win. I'm tired of this. You don't need vets - you need talent.


    For anyone who follows forums, it should be no secret I want to see Lou and Amir walk with Lowry and/or DeRozan traded. People assume this is going to lead to "tanking". I don't agree it is a guaranteed outcome. They might not make the playoffs next season (especially if Lowry is traded) but a step back in the short term is really the only chance to get beyond the current situation of 1st round hiccup**. Houston is a great example of building with youth:

    2011-12: Starting in the lockout shortened season, the Rockets finished 34-32. 10 of the 19 players who played on the roster that season were younger than 25 with 14 being 25 or younger. For the players who actually played though, they were all the vets. The Rockets did not make the playoffs though - victim to the West dominance over last number of seasons.

    2012-13: This is the beginning of the Beard. Using their youth, vets on manageable contracts, and draft pick stash the Rockets traded for James Harden. Yet again this was a young roster with 14 of 20 guys who appeared that season were younger than 25. More importantly 5 of their top 7 rotation were younger than 25. Despite the increased reliance on youth the team managed to increase their WP to 45-37. They also made the playoffs where they lost in 1st round to OKC 4-2 with 2 losses decided by 3 points each.

    2013-14: Combined with their star guard, youth, and cap space, the Rockets managed to sign a max contract in Dwight Howard. Despite this, the Rockets still had a young roster with 8 of 18 players on roster that season under 25. As younger guys have grown older over course of last 2 seasons, we now see 12 of the 18 roster players 25 or younger. The Rockets increased their regular season wins to 54-28. They lost once again in first round 4-2 to Portland with 3 games going to OT (1-2) and the final game a 1 point loss.

    2014-15: With significant cap space, Rockets add a veteran Ariza to team. 9 of 20 roster players are still under 25 and 10/20 are 25 or younger. The rotation is now older due to injuries, free agent signings, and younger players who developed getting older. The team had 56 wins and now is in West conference finals where, through use of DLeague, a player like Clint Capela (20) develops and makes an impact in the playoffs when called upon.

    This is how a young team grows and develops in to a winning team.


    Again, the Raptors are NOT a young team.

    Hopefully the Raptors start to make the fictitious narrative of being a young team a reality. It might require a small step back now but, with the majority of the Raptor rotation 28 or older, the expiration date on this core is sooner than later. Attempting to stick with this core is only going to ensure a bigger and longer step back in the near future.


    **If you disagree, please explain how the Raptors get better with letting all FA walk and $16M in cap space OR keeping Lou/Amir and working with exceptions and minimum contracts. I just don't see it....doesn't mean I'm right though!
    You're right

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    Lou and Amir are probably walking and we may get kris middleton, or others....jimmy butler and rose had a falling out so we even have a shot at him. We could sign him and start to truly bring ross off the bench.

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Every time I've read the forums or listened to an interview or watched a Raptors game inevitably the narrative of "we are a young team" gets mentioned. Every time I read or hear this I want to scream. This is why it was so refreshing to read the RR interview with Jack Armstrong earlier this week:



    When looking at straight average age, the Raptors are around middle of the pack in the NBA at 13th and 26.2 years.
    When looking at experience, the Raptors are again middle of the pack at 15th with 4.6 years. Source: http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison


    However when you break down the Raptors roster, the guys who actually play are mostly all in the prime of their careers or the tail end of prime:

    Lowry: 29
    'Bro: 29
    Vasquez: 28
    Lou: 28
    JJ: 28
    Amir: 28*
    PP: 26
    DD: 25 (26 in August)
    Ross: 24
    JV: 23 (just turned)

    Bebe is just 22 (23 in July) and Bruno is 19 (20 in September).

    *Amir is the oldest 28 year old I've ever seen.


    But the only thing that made me scream louder than the false "we are young" narrative is the you need VETS to win. I'm tired of this. You don't need vets - you need talent.


    For anyone who follows forums, it should be no secret I want to see Lou and Amir walk with Lowry and/or DeRozan traded. People assume this is going to lead to "tanking". I don't agree it is a guaranteed outcome. They might not make the playoffs next season (especially if Lowry is traded) but a step back in the short term is really the only chance to get beyond the current situation of 1st round hiccup**. Houston is a great example of building with youth:

    2011-12: Starting in the lockout shortened season, the Rockets finished 34-32. 10 of the 19 players who played on the roster that season were younger than 25 with 14 being 25 or younger. For the players who actually played though, they were all the vets. The Rockets did not make the playoffs though - victim to the West dominance over last number of seasons.

    2012-13: This is the beginning of the Beard. Using their youth, vets on manageable contracts, and draft pick stash the Rockets traded for James Harden. Yet again this was a young roster with 14 of 20 guys who appeared that season were younger than 25. More importantly 5 of their top 7 rotation were younger than 25. Despite the increased reliance on youth the team managed to increase their WP to 45-37. They also made the playoffs where they lost in 1st round to OKC 4-2 with 2 losses decided by 3 points each.

    2013-14: Combined with their star guard, youth, and cap space, the Rockets managed to sign a max contract in Dwight Howard. Despite this, the Rockets still had a young roster with 8 of 18 players on roster that season under 25. As younger guys have grown older over course of last 2 seasons, we now see 12 of the 18 roster players 25 or younger. The Rockets increased their regular season wins to 54-28. They lost once again in first round 4-2 to Portland with 3 games going to OT (1-2) and the final game a 1 point loss.

    2014-15: With significant cap space, Rockets add a veteran Ariza to team. 9 of 20 roster players are still under 25 and 10/20 are 25 or younger. The rotation is now older due to injuries, free agent signings, and younger players who developed getting older. The team had 56 wins and now is in West conference finals where, through use of DLeague, a player like Clint Capela (20) develops and makes an impact in the playoffs when called upon.

    This is how a young team grows and develops in to a winning team.


    Again, the Raptors are NOT a young team.

    Hopefully the Raptors start to make the fictitious narrative of being a young team a reality. It might require a small step back now but, with the majority of the Raptor rotation 28 or older, the expiration date on this core is sooner than later. Attempting to stick with this core is only going to ensure a bigger and longer step back in the near future.


    **If you disagree, please explain how the Raptors get better with letting all FA walk and $16M in cap space OR keeping Lou/Amir and working with exceptions and minimum contracts. I just don't see it....doesn't mean I'm right though!
    Good post man.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic All-Star Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Kind of off topic, but kind of on topic:

    The other thing the raptors sorely lack is size. We're a small ass team.

    Lowry is short, no wingspan and no athleticism.

    DeMar has good size for SG, small for SF

    Ross, is small for SF

    Amir, is tall but lanky, he has some veteran savvy that helps him deal with some bigger players but he still gets bullied. Plus with his ankles he can't defend on the perimeter.

    JV. Big

    Lou is small and frail looking but he has long arms

    GV is tall, but who cares he can't move

    JJ is big athletic and doesn't play

    TH is a lunatic but undersized at the 4 (makes up for it with crazy) and way undersized at C

    Chuck, you can't move him, but he can't move and he's short.

    Combine our SHORT comings (see what I did there) and our ageing players are at an even greater disadvantage.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    i'm with you
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    Tanking is a term that gets overused anyway. I mean Philly has definitely been TANKING but most situations don't exactly qualify.

    I can imagine a scenario where if they do trade DD and KL for young players and/or picks, they could fill out the roster with vets on 1 yr deals for the 2015-16 season just to serve as placeholders. (my thinking is they'd prefer to sign long-term deals once the cap goes up the season after next)

    The young players still get minutes and leadership. Also, ideally, the season wouldn't be a complete dumpster fire/waste of time. I mean a top 3 pick would be great and could happen anyway but you'd burn a lot of goodwill with an abysmal season right after already trading your best 2 players. Goodwill doesn't win championships but this is MLSE we're talking about. And MU doesn't appear to like to tear down and rebuild. So who knows /shrugs

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    it's pretty hard to tank in the atlantic division. i mean the celtics tried to tank but couldn't even do it properly and made the playoffs. like, the raps were the most dysfunctional team for the second half of the season and they won the Atlantic. i'm pretty sure moving 1 or even both of DD/Lowry will put us in the same company as the 76ers and knicks.
    @jerboat

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Every time I've read the forums or listened to an interview or watched a Raptors game inevitably the narrative of "we are a young team" gets mentioned. Every time I read or hear this I want to scream. This is why it was so refreshing to read the RR interview with Jack Armstrong earlier this week:



    When looking at straight average age, the Raptors are around middle of the pack in the NBA at 13th and 26.2 years.
    When looking at experience, the Raptors are again middle of the pack at 15th with 4.6 years. Source: http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison


    However when you break down the Raptors roster, the guys who actually play are mostly all in the prime of their careers or the tail end of prime:

    Lowry: 29
    'Bro: 29
    Vasquez: 28
    Lou: 28
    JJ: 28
    Amir: 28*
    PP: 26
    DD: 25 (26 in August)
    Ross: 24
    JV: 23 (just turned)

    Bebe is just 22 (23 in July) and Bruno is 19 (20 in September).

    *Amir is the oldest 28 year old I've ever seen.


    But the only thing that made me scream louder than the false "we are young" narrative is the you need VETS to win. I'm tired of this. You don't need vets - you need talent.


    For anyone who follows forums, it should be no secret I want to see Lou and Amir walk with Lowry and/or DeRozan traded. People assume this is going to lead to "tanking". I don't agree it is a guaranteed outcome. They might not make the playoffs next season (especially if Lowry is traded) but a step back in the short term is really the only chance to get beyond the current situation of 1st round hiccup**. Houston is a great example of building with youth:

    2011-12: Starting in the lockout shortened season, the Rockets finished 34-32. 10 of the 19 players who played on the roster that season were younger than 25 with 14 being 25 or younger. For the players who actually played though, they were all the vets. The Rockets did not make the playoffs though - victim to the West dominance over last number of seasons.

    2012-13: This is the beginning of the Beard. Using their youth, vets on manageable contracts, and draft pick stash the Rockets traded for James Harden. Yet again this was a young roster with 14 of 20 guys who appeared that season were younger than 25. More importantly 5 of their top 7 rotation were younger than 25. Despite the increased reliance on youth the team managed to increase their WP to 45-37. They also made the playoffs where they lost in 1st round to OKC 4-2 with 2 losses decided by 3 points each.

    2013-14: Combined with their star guard, youth, and cap space, the Rockets managed to sign a max contract in Dwight Howard. Despite this, the Rockets still had a young roster with 8 of 18 players on roster that season under 25. As younger guys have grown older over course of last 2 seasons, we now see 12 of the 18 roster players 25 or younger. The Rockets increased their regular season wins to 54-28. They lost once again in first round 4-2 to Portland with 3 games going to OT (1-2) and the final game a 1 point loss.

    2014-15: With significant cap space, Rockets add a veteran Ariza to team. 9 of 20 roster players are still under 25 and 10/20 are 25 or younger. The rotation is now older due to injuries, free agent signings, and younger players who developed getting older. The team had 56 wins and now is in West conference finals where, through use of DLeague, a player like Clint Capela (20) develops and makes an impact in the playoffs when called upon.

    This is how a young team grows and develops in to a winning team.


    Again, the Raptors are NOT a young team.

    Hopefully the Raptors start to make the fictitious narrative of being a young team a reality. It might require a small step back now but, with the majority of the Raptor rotation 28 or older, the expiration date on this core is sooner than later. Attempting to stick with this core is only going to ensure a bigger and longer step back in the near future.


    **If you disagree, please explain how the Raptors get better with letting all FA walk and $16M in cap space OR keeping Lou/Amir and working with exceptions and minimum contracts. I just don't see it....doesn't mean I'm right though!
    I agree with you 100 percent. I wouldn't trade both of Kyle and Demar but I would definitely trade 1 of them. If both go I'm fine with that as well. And I HATE the whole we're young thing as well because we aren't. We don't have much PLAYOFF experience but that's about it. I've just lost a lot of faith in Masai. He almost seems scared to make any big moves. Always using the excuse we are still evaluating. Which is becoming very annoying. Just like I said he wouldn't get rid of Casey, I can totally see him not making any big trades and either keeping one or both of Lou and Amir. He's just as frustrating as the team.

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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    Kind of off topic, but kind of on topic:

    The other thing the raptors sorely lack is size. We're a small ass team.

    Lowry is short, no wingspan and no athleticism.

    DeMar has good size for SG, small for SF

    Ross, is small for SF

    Amir, is tall but lanky, he has some veteran savvy that helps him deal with some bigger players but he still gets bullied. Plus with his ankles he can't defend on the perimeter.

    JV. Big

    Lou is small and frail looking but he has long arms

    GV is tall, but who cares he can't move

    JJ is big athletic and doesn't play

    TH is a lunatic but undersized at the 4 (makes up for it with crazy) and way undersized at C

    Chuck, you can't move him, but he can't move and he's short.

    Combine our SHORT comings (see what I did there) and our ageing players are at an even greater disadvantage.
    It's so true. We need some length on our team and we need a starting calibre small forward that's more a 3 and D guy so Terrence can come off the bench. This playing Terrence at the 3 is not working out. If we do this then we won't feel the need to keep Lou Williams. We at least either need to address the starting power forward or small forward positions this offseason if possible. I know we can't fix both in one offseason so one of them have to get fixed.

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    Quote GLF wrote: View Post
    I agree with you 100 percent. I wouldn't trade both of Kyle and Demar but I would definitely trade 1 of them. If both go I'm fine with that as well. And I HATE the whole we're young thing as well because we aren't. We don't have much PLAYOFF experience but that's about it. I've just lost a lot of faith in Masai. He almost seems scared to make any big moves. Always using the excuse we are still evaluating. Which is becoming very annoying. Just like I said he wouldn't get rid of Casey, I can totally see him not making any big trades and either keeping one or both of Lou and Amir. He's just as frustrating as the team.
    If we were the Spurs yeah I could go for staying the course but we're not. I think DD needs to be traded with Ross as a throw in. DD can get us back value. KL despite his faults is probably still the most important player on our team.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    If we were the Spurs yeah I could go for staying the course but we're not. I think DD needs to be traded with Ross as a throw in. DD can get us back value. KL despite his faults is probably still the most important player on our team.
    Once you get the talent on a contender, you can continue to build and work around those players in to their mid-30's.

    You then have the advantage of other veterans who are talented looking to join on more value contracts.

    But to steal a line from Masai it is all a process that begins with getting the talent.
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    Quote Mess wrote: View Post
    Tanking is a term that gets overused anyway. I mean Philly has definitely been TANKING but most situations don't exactly qualify.

    I can imagine a scenario where if they do trade DD and KL for young players and/or picks, they could fill out the roster with vets on 1 yr deals for the 2015-16 season just to serve as placeholders. (my thinking is they'd prefer to sign long-term deals once the cap goes up the season after next)

    The young players still get minutes and leadership. Also, ideally, the season wouldn't be a complete dumpster fire/waste of time. I mean a top 3 pick would be great and could happen anyway but you'd burn a lot of goodwill with an abysmal season right after already trading your best 2 players. Goodwill doesn't win championships but this is MLSE we're talking about. And MU doesn't appear to like to tear down and rebuild. So who knows /shrugs
    This process should have started the season after JV got drafted, when he was playing in Europe. The last 4 seasons have essentially been a big waste of time, which is exactly what the 'pro tankers' feared. The Raptors missed an opportunity to have a much younger AND much more talented team, because the past 4 seasons should have been all about accumulating and developing young talent; Ross, Bruno and Bebe is a far cry from 'accumulating and developing young talent'.

    The next couple seasons should have been about the Raptors taking a step forward. Instead, they're now contemplating taking a step backward.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu May 21st, 2015 at 10:54 AM.

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    The Raptors are not young with regards to age.. but one thing that I think Masai and the media are trying to imply is that the Raptors have very little playoff experience.. and that inexperience makes them 'young'.

    At least that's how I interpret it.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The Raptors are not young with regards to age.. but one thing that I think Masai and the media are trying to imply is that the Raptors have very little playoff experience.. and that inexperience makes them 'young'.

    At least that's how I interpret it.
    Good lord...... that is MUCH worse than my interpretation!

    We're building around a bunch of players with 5+ years experience and are career losers!

    Shoot me now.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Good lord...... that is MUCH worse than my interpretation!

    We're building around a bunch of players with 5+ years experience and are career losers!

    Shoot me now.
    Lol that's basically how I read that just now too.

    Not old, just not good enough to have gained playoff experience.

    #WeTheDamned
    #provem - by playing well on the court. Don't worry about the twitterverse

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    This process should have started the season after JV got drafted, when he was playing in Europe. The last 4 seasons have essentially been a big waste of time, which is exactly what the 'pro tankers' feared. The Raptors missed an opportunity to have a much younger AND much more talented team, because the past 4 seasons should have been all about accumulating and developing young talent; Ross, Bruno and Bebe is a far cry from 'accumulating and developing young talent'.

    The next couple seasons should have been about the Raptors taking a step forward. Instead, they're now contemplating taking a step backward.

    If Masai can unload DD and/or Lowry for prospects, picks, and even more financial flexibility, I don't mind at all.

    Trading Lowry and/or DD when they had little to no value 1.5-2 years ago wouldn't have done much except get a higher draft pick.

    If they can now be flipped for that type of return, it works out the same, minus all the losing.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Our average age is not young, but our core group has yet to enter its prime, notwithstanding Kyle who is more of a place holder at PG signed to a fair and tradeable contract.

    The core group being JV, Ross, Derozan, Patterson with an average age of about 24 I think you can reasonably expect all of these guys to get better over the next few seasons. Definitely not enough to achieve contender status alone, but signing a couple of guys coming off their rookie contracts (Tristan Thompson, Middleton etc.) in the same age range is where you can say we're a team that at least has a positive trajectory as opposed to a team that has maximized their ability like an Atlanta.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post

    The next couple seasons should have been about the Raptors taking a step forward. Instead, they're now contemplating taking a step backward.
    Are the Raptors actually contemplating it though? Or is it all just in the fan's imaginations here?

  25. #20
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    I think it is stating the obvious saying that you need talents to win !!! Can you win without talents ? Of course not

    Having the talent to win is a given fact but at the same time, you need to have the right coaching and right system to develop and gel these guys together.

    You can have a world of talent in your team but have a poor system to develop them and this will not lead to wining.

    MU not only needs to go after talent, he needs to first define an identity for this team and a system that can develop these guys.

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