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Thread: BC has 2 years - what would you do if you were him?

  1. #21
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    damn straight it is... I'm missing how thats a bad thing? The reason the Raps are where they are (and alot of other teams for that matter) is because they didn't hedge their bets.

    Most of the championship/contending teams are where they are because they went after "sure things" (so to speak as nothing is a sure thing in sports)... rather than taking big risks.
    The danger is putting the team on the mediocrity treadmill. You want to try and win now AND later. The problem is that the number one thing the Raptors need more than anything is a franchise player. They're not going to sign one, and they most likely won't be able to trade for one. The most realistic way is to try and draft one, which means a high draft pick next year, when there will be a strong draft.

    And the reason the Raptors and other teams are where they are is not because they didn't hedge their bets. It's because of lack of good management and/or luck. The best teams are where they are in large part to the fact that they have a top ten player on their team.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think Jordan will fetch more than Amir.

    However, now you have me thinking a little bit more. If Jordan could be had for around $8M per season, I would seriously consider it. The reason why is then the Raptors would have 3 legit C's and Jordan is already capable of starting and just turned 23. He has also been playing behind Kaman (when he has been healthy albeit which has not been very often the last 2 of 3 of seasons).

    Of the three in a couple of seasons, the best will be your starter and the second best your back up. If two or three are capable starters and/or one back-ups, then you have a GM's dream of too many C's on one team in a league lacking quality C's.

    As an aside, a real reason for concern with Jordan is his FT% - yikes.
    You don't want two centers who need to play 30+ mpg. Neither is going to end up being happy. And you don't want Valanciunas wondering why he's going to come over when he might not even be the long term starting center.

    Having too much talent SEEMS like a nice problem, but unless you deal with it quickly, it can often lead to problems. Players become disgruntled, teams lowball you, chemistry issues grow. I'd rather wait on Valanciunas and see how he develops. If they want to bring in a veteran center who can play 10-15 mpg and tutor him, then I'm all for that. But not someone who is going to expect to continue to play 30+ mpg for as long as their with the team.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The danger is putting the team on the mediocrity treadmill. You want to try and win now AND later. The problem is that the number one thing the Raptors need more than anything is a franchise player. They're not going to sign one, and they most likely won't be able to trade for one. The most realistic way is to try and draft one, which means a high draft pick next year, when there will be a strong draft.

    And the reason the Raptors and other teams are where they are is not because they didn't hedge their bets. It's because of lack of good management and/or luck. The best teams are where they are in large part to the fact that they have a top ten player on their team.
    I don't think signing a young C automatically puts you on a mediocrity treadmill. I'd also mention a team is in danger of doing that at any point in time, the important thing is getting out of it if you do.
    Last edited by GarbageTime; Mon Sep 19th, 2011 at 07:25 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You don't want two centers who need to play 30+ mpg. Neither is going to end up being happy. And you don't want Valanciunas wondering why he's going to come over when he might not even be the long term starting center.

    Having too much talent SEEMS like a nice problem, but unless you deal with it quickly, it can often lead to problems. Players become disgruntled, teams lowball you, chemistry issues grow. I'd rather wait on Valanciunas and see how he develops. If they want to bring in a veteran center who can play 10-15 mpg and tutor him, then I'm all for that. But not someone who is going to expect to continue to play 30+ mpg for as long as their with the team.
    JV already needs to play 30 min a game and is already pegged as the long term starting C? Don't get me wrong when he's here I think giving him time... alot of it if he can handle it... is not a bad thing. But you are already making a lot of assumptions about him.

    But in sticking with those assumptions, lets assume he becomes, at the very least, a 'legit' starting C... I'd also assume this season means nothing (he won't be here), and his rookie year and then his 2nd year are a matter of growth. Really you are looking at 3 years anyways before he's in a situation where he would "need" 30 minutes a game or that we'd know for sure he's the long term starting C.

    I'd also mention having not enough talent can lead to just as many (although maybe different) problems as too much. What becomes important there then is the organization and the coach, and how they deal with it. If worst comes to worst, some of that 'too much' talent will have to be moved (easier said then done ofcourse). But I'd much rather have a problem of too many good players than too many bad players.
    Last edited by GarbageTime; Mon Sep 19th, 2011 at 07:43 AM.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You don't want two centers who need to play 30+ mpg. Neither is going to end up being happy. And you don't want Valanciunas wondering why he's going to come over when he might not even be the long term starting center.

    Having too much talent SEEMS like a nice problem, but unless you deal with it quickly, it can often lead to problems. Players become disgruntled, teams lowball you, chemistry issues grow. I'd rather wait on Valanciunas and see how he develops. If they want to bring in a veteran center who can play 10-15 mpg and tutor him, then I'm all for that. But not someone who is going to expect to continue to play 30+ mpg for as long as their with the team.
    The delay in JV coming for a year might offer a different perspective.

    With Jordan coming in, he could be your starter and Alabi as the back up. If Alabi is able to show he is a good back up and possibly capable of starting, then you make your decision after the season regarding Alabi/Jordan's future with the Raps. Alabi would be a good trade chip as he has a minimum contract team option for 2012-2013. IF Alabi is not a good back up, then you don't pick up his option. JV starts off as Jordan's backup. Then JV and Jordan battle it out for starting position.

    Keep in mind I would not recommend this for Gasol, Chandler, or Nene. Jordan is the free agent C I would target given his age.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    ***Don't trade Bargnani ... give it a rest. He is 25 ... a 20 point scorer who can put the ball in the net in almost every way imaginable - including ways most 7 footers can't ... If playing beside another 'balanced' (rebounding, shot blocking) big, he is a large piece on a winning Raptors club. 6 rebounds a game for a PF who is also your leading scorer won't seem so horrific.***

    My plan
    Year 1 - no wholesale changes:
    1. Sign a strong rotation SF (Maybe a starter, maybe not ... JJ is fine with me)
    2. Sign a veteran centre to start - and play limited minutes (with Ed and Amir playing heavy bench minutes)

    Year 2 - decision time
    1. Draft either a PG (to be Jose's heir apparent) or SF to challenge JJ for the SF job
    2. Deal one of ED or Amir for a veteran scoring guard to replace Leandro if he walks ... if he comes back, stay the course

    IF 2011-12 shows no signs of progress, then a deal for Bargnani will be targeted to being in talent at the PG or SF position.

    No falling deeper into a rebuild - Jonas will be integrated with current young talent, and only play minutes he earns.
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  7. #27
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    JV already needs to play 30 min a game and is already pegged as the long term starting C? Don't get me wrong when he's here I think giving him time... alot of it if he can handle it... is not a bad thing. But you are already making a lot of assumptions about him.

    But in sticking with those assumptions, lets assume he becomes, at the very least, a 'legit' starting C... I'd also assume this season means nothing (he won't be here), and his rookie year and then his 2nd year are a matter of growth. Really you are looking at 3 years anyways before he's in a situation where he would "need" 30 minutes a game or that we'd know for sure he's the long term starting C.

    I'd also mention having not enough talent can lead to just as many (although maybe different) problems as too much. What becomes important there then is the organization and the coach, and how they deal with it. If worst comes to worst, some of that 'too much' talent will have to be moved (easier said then done ofcourse). But I'd much rather have a problem of too many good players than too many bad players.
    If Valanciunas needs to play 30 mpg, where exactly are those minutes going to come from if someone like Jordan or Gasol also play the PF position? If you play them together, that causes a logjam at the PF position, where, even if you trade Bargnani, both Davis and Amir should be playing at least 25 mpg. There are simply not enough minutes to go around.

    And I really don't understand what the point of spending all that money on a position the Raptors already seem pretty set for the future. The SF position is HORRIBLE for the Raptors. I think James Johnson certainly has some potential, but he might very well have been the worst starting SF in the league last year. And while I like Calderon, and think Bayless has some promise, I don't know if I see either one of them being a starter on a contender 5 years from now.

    I have absolutely no problem with spending money on free agents, but I think doing it now is a bad idea. First of all you're throwing money at a bad team, which almost never works. I'd rather wait for a year or two when we have a better idea of the real needs of the team.

    And by signing a guy like Jordan or Gasol, you're probably going to help the team win 5 more games. Great. 5 more games doesn't sound like a lot, but this past year it was the difference between Minnesota and Toronto. And Minnesota got 100 more balls in the draft lottery than Toronto. A lower draft pick means you'll probably miss out on the chance to draft a franchise player. Then you might have a bunch of pretty good players, but without a franchise player, you're never going to be a real contender. That's the danger I'm talking about. How are you going to prevent your team from becoming mediocre without a franchise player?

    And that's not even taking into consideration the financial implications of capping out a lottery team that still has a lot of rookies you'll have to pay soon.

    That's why I'm FAR more comfortable with a Oklahoma City type approach. Patient and more financially responsible. Especially in what will probably be a very different landscape after the new CBA.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    ***Don't trade Bargnani ... give it a rest. He is 25 ... a 20 point scorer who can put the ball in the net in almost every way imaginable - including ways most 7 footers can't ... If playing beside another 'balanced' (rebounding, shot blocking) big, he is a large piece on a winning Raptors club. 6 rebounds a game for a PF who is also your leading scorer won't seem so horrific.***

    My plan
    Year 1 - no wholesale changes:
    1. Sign a strong rotation SF (Maybe a starter, maybe not ... JJ is fine with me)
    2. Sign a veteran centre to start - and play limited minutes (with Ed and Amir playing heavy bench minutes)

    Year 2 - decision time
    1. Draft either a PG (to be Jose's heir apparent) or SF to challenge JJ for the SF job
    2. Deal one of ED or Amir for a veteran scoring guard to replace Leandro if he walks ... if he comes back, stay the course

    IF 2011-12 shows no signs of progress, then a deal for Bargnani will be targeted to being in talent at the PG or SF position.

    No falling deeper into a rebuild - Jonas will be integrated with current young talent, and only play minutes he earns.
    So what you're saying is Bargnani will be fine next to a rebounding, shotblocking big man. Someone like, say, Amir Johnson or Ed Davis. Mmm.

    And you want to WAIT until Bargnani's trade value declines even further to trade him. Mmmm.
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  9. #29
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    Default 2 Years and Counting

    .
    • Stay the course
      .
    • Let the Big situation resolve itself. Andrea may be traded, but I doubt it. One of Amir or Davis will be gone - IMO - as I stick to the redundancy view that having JV, Amir & Ed on the same team are too similar (and too much of a luxury for a non-Contender). Davis seems the most likely, as his trade value (especially with a rookie salary), makes BC's probable options more palatable.
      .
    • Draft 2012 - SF and/or PG focus. If they get their hands on a PG with potential, I say move Bayless. Jose may be old for some fans, but winners don't feature all youth.
      .
    • Year 2 - Should the NBA miss most or all of the upcoming season, it's doubtful that MLSE would jettison BC. They need to lock in his 3rd year, so as to keep the rebuild on a true "flight plan".

    .
    Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Mon Sep 19th, 2011 at 03:54 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If Valanciunas needs to play 30 mpg, where exactly are those minutes going to come from if someone like Jordan or Gasol also play the PF position? If you play them together, that causes a logjam at the PF position, where, even if you trade Bargnani, both Davis and Amir should be playing at least 25 mpg. There are simply not enough minutes to go around.

    And I really don't understand what the point of spending all that money on a position the Raptors already seem pretty set for the future. The SF position is HORRIBLE for the Raptors. I think James Johnson certainly has some potential, but he might very well have been the worst starting SF in the league last year. And while I like Calderon, and think Bayless has some promise, I don't know if I see either one of them being a starter on a contender 5 years from now.

    I have absolutely no problem with spending money on free agents, but I think doing it now is a bad idea. First of all you're throwing money at a bad team, which almost never works. I'd rather wait for a year or two when we have a better idea of the real needs of the team.

    And by signing a guy like Jordan or Gasol, you're probably going to help the team win 5 more games. Great. 5 more games doesn't sound like a lot, but this past year it was the difference between Minnesota and Toronto. And Minnesota got 100 more balls in the draft lottery than Toronto. A lower draft pick means you'll probably miss out on the chance to draft a franchise player. Then you might have a bunch of pretty good players, but without a franchise player, you're never going to be a real contender. That's the danger I'm talking about. How are you going to prevent your team from becoming mediocre without a franchise player?

    And that's not even taking into consideration the financial implications of capping out a lottery team that still has a lot of rookies you'll have to pay soon.

    That's why I'm FAR more comfortable with a Oklahoma City type approach. Patient and more financially responsible. Especially in what will probably be a very different landscape after the new CBA.
    no matter how bad one wants or expects a team to be, they will always be competing with someone else. Then there is the luck of the lottery. Then there is the draft pick(s) becoming what you want... let alone one of them being a franchise player.

    Even if the Raps do nothing this offseason they aren't ending up the worst team in the league. Charlotte, Detroit, Minn, Sac, Cleveland, Washington, Toronto (and who knows who else will peak their head in there) are all competing for that honour.

    So lets just say the Raps do that (lose to get a top pick until they get that 'franchise guy'), JV becomes a top notch C but nothing else turns out... so now JV says, these guys don't have their act together I'm out of town... what then? Start over? Was it worth it?

    Or what if JV doesn't turn out near what was expected?

    Or what if the Raps are real bad but still pick 9th?

    Or what if the Raps get the first pick and he gets 'Odened'?

    Or what if they get the consensus #1 pick and he's Kwame Brown?

    Or what if JV gets seriously injured?

    Just keep losing until you win? Is that really always going to be the answer? At what cost... when is too much losing too much?

    If you played a game of pick up basketball where the loser picked the first player for the next pick up game, would you lose that game so you could pick first? And the game after that... and the game after that? I mean its giving you a better opportunity to win the next game right?

    Don't get me wrong, I think this team needs a franchise player and it doesn't appear that player is here yet. I expect this team to be bad next year (and few years) regardless. At the same time the team shouldn't plan for potentially infinite losing. Going 'all in' tank style does not guarantee anything... the team could become Oklahoma or it could be the Clippers. I'm not saying look to win a few games now. I'm not saying make the playoffs this season. And its not like I'm recommending a 17 mil dollar 7 year deal here.

    But even if the Raps get a Franchise player next year there are no guarantees any of the guys this team have right now will 1) turn out to be where we would want them 2) stay healthy 3) want to stay here

    If this team can maintain quality value players who can and will compete, the team will be highly competitive itself.
    Last edited by GarbageTime; Mon Sep 19th, 2011 at 04:58 PM.

  11. #31
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    What if the Raptors sign Jordan and he decides he wants to become a woman, quits basketball and headlines in Vegas?

    Anything is possible if you're going to go down that road. The trick is to figure out what the best odds and play them.

    The fact is that Toronto is most likely going to be one of the worst teams in the league next year. Trying to improve them slightly does them no good and there's a good chance it actually does them some harm in the long run. I'm not suggesting ANYTHING is guaranteed, but the point is to give yourself the absolute best chance you can.

    It's all about increasing your chances.

    The upside is that the Raptors get a franchise player. The downside is they don't, but still have money to spend on a free agent. And they'll probably have a better idea what they want to spend it on, so will spend it more wisely.

    I have to say I've always hated when someone brings up the Clippers as the downside to trying to build through the lottery. The only thing the Clippers are are an example of what happens when a franchise is managed horribly. If the team is going to managed horribly, then there's absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent that path from being followed.

    Oklahoma was lucky by drafting Durant, yes, but they were also incredibly smart, not spending money and being patient with their young players. When it was clear what the team needed (a defensive center), they had the ability to go out and trade for one.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    What if the Raptors sign Jordan and he decides he wants to become a woman, quits basketball and headlines in Vegas?

    Anything is possible if you're going to go down that road. The trick is to figure out what the best odds and play them.
    The fact is that Toronto is most likely going to be one of the worst teams in the league next year. Trying to improve them slightly does them no good and there's a good chance it actually does them some harm in the long run. I'm not suggesting ANYTHING is guaranteed, but the point is to give yourself the absolute best chance you can.

    It's all about increasing your chances.

    The upside is that the Raptors get a franchise player. The downside is they don't, but still have money to spend on a free agent. And they'll probably have a better idea what they want to spend it on, so will spend it more wisely.

    I have to say I've always hated when someone brings up the Clippers as the downside to trying to build through the lottery. The only thing the Clippers are are an example of what happens when a franchise is managed horribly. If the team is going to managed horribly, then there's absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent that path from being followed.

    Oklahoma was lucky by drafting Durant, yes, but they were also incredibly smart, not spending money and being patient with their young players. When it was clear what the team needed (a defensive center), they had the ability to go out and trade for one.
    the bolded part is exactly it though. I really don't want to see this team not taking good opportunities (ie. productive players at a fair price) when they are available to them, especially when the team doesn't need to give up an asset to get them.

    And this isn't about winning a few more games this year... far from it. But I don't want to see the team not take a good opportunity because it may mean a few more wins, which may mean a worse pick, which may mean a 'not as good' player, which may or may not turn out anyways.

    Like you said OKC got 'lucky' with Durant. Not taking an good opportunity so that the team can hopefully get 'lucky' later has a huge opportunity cost.

    I guess its just my risk aversion is much higher than yours.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    what do you guys think of dealing calderon for some picks and sign jamaal tinsley as a veteran back up for bayless. I know hes a bit old but he will be good for a another 1 or 2 years until we draft a PG and he could mentor bayless a bit.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    what do you guys think of dealing calderon for some picks and sign jamaal tinsley as a veteran back up for bayless. I know hes a bit old but he will be good for a another 1 or 2 years until we draft a PG and he could mentor bayless a bit.
    If someone would take on Calderon's contract AND throw in a couple of picks, I'd be all for it.

    As for Jamal Tinsley, no thanks. He has not played in years. If you are curious how he is going to do, I would take a look at Penney Hardaway's attempt to comeback after a few years away from the game. *Now would not be a good time to bring up MJ, either - lol*

  15. #35
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If someone would take on Calderon's contract AND throw in a couple of picks, I'd be all for it.

    As for Jamal Tinsley, no thanks. He has not played in years. If you are curious how he is going to do, I would take a look at Penney Hardaway's attempt to comeback after a few years away from the game. *Now would not be a good time to bring up MJ, either - lol*
    idk i think JT will do pretty good. He looked good at the impact league and i heard he's been working out for a full year and weighs less than his last year in indiana. I'd take a look at him(no not in that way you sick minded people out there)

  16. #36
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    the bolded part is exactly it though. I really don't want to see this team not taking good opportunities (ie. productive players at a fair price) when they are available to them, especially when the team doesn't need to give up an asset to get them.

    And this isn't about winning a few more games this year... far from it. But I don't want to see the team not take a good opportunity because it may mean a few more wins, which may mean a worse pick, which may mean a 'not as good' player, which may or may not turn out anyways.

    Like you said OKC got 'lucky' with Durant. Not taking an good opportunity so that the team can hopefully get 'lucky' later has a huge opportunity cost.

    I guess its just my risk aversion is much higher than yours.
    You HAVE to take a risk. Playing it safe usually leads to mediocrity in the NBA. On the one hand you've got Jerry West, who traded a top 10 center for a high school rookie. And then you've got Larry Bird, who seems to want to go after the safe pick rather than the player with a higher ceiling, but maybe less a sure thing. Indiana is currently a mediocre team, while Kobe is still leading his team deep into the Finals.

    And why are you so adamant that the Raptors sign a free agent NOW? There are good free agents available nearly every summer. Why not wait when you a) know what you need more and b) know your financial situation better. Is Calderon, Bargnani and Barbosa going to continue to be with the team? How far away is the team to making the playoffs?

    You're afraid of missing an opportunity, but is this too good an opportunity to pass up and one that doesn't come along very often? I don't think so. FIrst of all, Toronto will have to overpay him in order to get him to sign for two reasons. The first is that the team just won 22 games, and free agents don't tend to want to sign with bad teams. Secondly, they just drafted a center who looks to have a lot of potential, so you're going to have to convince him to sign despite that, and that probably means more money. The Clippers are going to match any reasonable offer, since Kaman is either being traded, or is going to probably walk after his contract expires in a year.

    So if you think overpaying a young center right after you draft a potentially very good young center is a good opportunity, then we have different opinions about what a good opportunity is.
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    what do you guys think of dealing calderon for some picks and sign jamaal tinsley as a veteran back up for bayless. I know hes a bit old but he will be good for a another 1 or 2 years until we draft a PG and he could mentor bayless a bit.
    A "couple of picks"? What exactly does that mean? If you can get a first round pick in next year's draft for Calderon, I'd probably take it.

    As for Tinsley, if you want a guy who can mentor Bayless on how to blow a great opportunity, waste your skill and act unprofessionally, then he's probably the guy you want. Otherwise, I'd stay as far away from him as possible.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You HAVE to take a risk. Playing it safe usually leads to mediocrity in the NBA. On the one hand you've got Jerry West, who traded a top 10 center for a high school rookie. And then you've got Larry Bird, who seems to want to go after the safe pick rather than the player with a higher ceiling, but maybe less a sure thing. Indiana is currently a mediocre team, while Kobe is still leading his team deep into the Finals.

    And why are you so adamant that the Raptors sign a free agent NOW? There are good free agents available nearly every summer. Why not wait when you a) know what you need more and b) know your financial situation better. Is Calderon, Bargnani and Barbosa going to continue to be with the team? How far away is the team to making the playoffs?

    You're afraid of missing an opportunity, but is this too good an opportunity to pass up and one that doesn't come along very often? I don't think so. FIrst of all, Toronto will have to overpay him in order to get him to sign for two reasons. The first is that the team just won 22 games, and free agents don't tend to want to sign with bad teams. Secondly, they just drafted a center who looks to have a lot of potential, so you're going to have to convince him to sign despite that, and that probably means more money. The Clippers are going to match any reasonable offer, since Kaman is either being traded, or is going to probably walk after his contract expires in a year.

    So if you think overpaying a young center right after you draft a potentially very good young center is a good opportunity, then we have different opinions about what a good opportunity is.
    If you HAVE to take risks, why have you been so anti-bargnani since his draft... have the Raptors ever had anyone with a higher potential ceiling besides Vince Carter? Sure now its clear we know what he is (in)capable of, but you always maintained your dislike for his game since he was drafted. In his first couple years did you ever say he needs 30 minutes to see if he can improve to reach his ceiling? Now though the team has to be risky?

    And its not about just about taking risks, its about the level of risk vs. the opportunities (like you said before the best odds which shouldn't be confused with the highest odds).

    And I'm sorry, Indiana wasn't a contender since Kobe was drafted? They are a team rebuilding that just made the playoffs (by being the best of the worst) but it was still since Kobe was drafted that they had and lost a franchise player, due to injury (and the team in general due to the rumble in the palace).

    and I'm not adamant that they go after a FA now. It was one alternative dependent on the time frame and availability. Never a do or die situation. I also never said to overpay them... I clearly stated if it was relative to the terms of the deal. I just don't see that as short sighted.. I see that, as we both stated earlier, as hedging your bets. While hedging your bets MAY not give a reward as big as 'going all in' (so to speak), it will cover your ass from tremendous failures.

    Don't take this the wrong way but some how I have a feeling this has alot more to do with it being a guy who would theoretically be playing Jonas' position rather than signing a young FA...... it wasn't that long ago (last off season I believe), you recommended the team going after Shane Battier. You are for the team keeping Jose (in most circumstances)... yet doesn't this go against the same philosophy above? I'm all for Jonas playing when he gets here... but this team shouldn't be handing anyone anything atleast not when they have reasonable alternatives. They've done that too much already and each time it ended badly.

    I'm all for this team getting an opportunity to draft a franchise player.... but you don't pass up free pussy on your way to the whore house

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    If you HAVE to take risks, why have you been so anti-bargnani since his draft... have the Raptors ever had anyone with a higher potential ceiling besides Vince Carter? Sure now its clear we know what he is (in)capable of, but you always maintained your dislike for his game since he was drafted. In his first couple years did you ever say he needs 30 minutes to see if he can improve to reach his ceiling? Now though the team has to be risky?
    I never felt his ceiling was nearly as high as some did. He's never once shown the defensive or rebounding potential to be the player some felt he would. Never. I didn't want the Raptors to draft him because I figured he'd become exactly the player he has. A good offensive player who brings literally nothing else to the table. Unlike some, I look at potential as ALL AROUND potential, not just whether or not someone can score.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    And its not about just about taking risks, its about the level of risk vs. the opportunities (like you said before the best odds which shouldn't be confused with the highest odds).

    And I'm sorry, Indiana wasn't a contender since Kobe was drafted? They are a team rebuilding that just made the playoffs (by being the best of the worst) but it was still since Kobe was drafted that they had and lost a franchise player, due to injury (and the team in general due to the rumble in the palace).
    Indiana wasn't a contender when Larry Bird was in charge. However much Bird was an excellent coach, he's been far too safe as a GM. Donnie Walsh has been a risk taker, which is why he gambled so much on turning the team around last summer with free agency. And it's why he traded a productive veteran big man, in Dale Davis, for a young, unproven big man with upside, in Jermaine O'Neal. Sometimes the gambles backfire, like trading Antonio Davis for Jonathan Bender. But those are the risks.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    and I'm not adamant that they go after a FA now. It was one alternative dependent on the time frame and availability. Never a do or die situation. I also never said to overpay them... I clearly stated if it was relative to the terms of the deal. I just don't see that as short sighted.. I see that, as we both stated earlier, as hedging your bets. While hedging your bets MAY not give a reward as big as 'going all in' (so to speak), it will cover your ass from tremendous failures.
    The majority of the time you sign an in-demand free agent, you overpay him. That's why players love free agency so much. And the only reason players sign extensions instead of simply becoming free agents is the risk if they get injured. DeAndre Jordan is a very athletic, 23 year old rebounding and shotblocking 7 footer with, from what I gather, a decent head on his shoulders. You really don't think you'll have to overpay him to get him? Portland just extended Greg Oden for $8 million despite the fact that he's made of glass. Andrew Bynum can't stay healthy yet the Lakers paid him $10 based solely potential.

    And the fact is that it's such an incredibly difficult thing to win a Championship in the NBA. You can't hedge your bets and expect to do so. You HAVE go all in.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way but some how I have a feeling this has alot more to do with it being a guy who would theoretically be playing Jonas' position rather than signing a young FA...... it wasn't that long ago (last off season I believe), you recommended the team going after Shane Battier. You are for the team keeping Jose (in most circumstances)... yet doesn't this go against the same philosophy above? I'm all for Jonas playing when he gets here... but this team shouldn't be handing anyone anything atleast not when they have reasonable alternatives. They've done that too much already and each time it ended badly.

    I'm all for this team getting an opportunity to draft a franchise player.... but you don't pass up free pussy on your way to the whore house
    I don't think it's a good idea to go after a young center because of Valanciunas. Yes. But I also don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of money on a free agent when you've just won 22 games and have as little real talent as the Raptors.

    And no, it certainly was not me wanting Shane Battier last summer. I'm a big Battier fan, but I was talking about rebuilding if Bosh left, and I have consistently argued against getting Battier during rebuilding, in part because I think sticking him on a rebuilding team is a waste of his talents, but also because he's simply too old and would take playing time away from the younger players.

    I'm for keeping Calderon for a couple of reasons. The first is because he's already on the team. They don't have to spend money to keep him (he's only got two years left on his contract). More importantly, though, I think he's worth more to the team than what he would get back in a deal. I've never been opposed to trading him if the Raptors would get something of value back (I've already said on somewhere I'd trade him for a first round pick), but I don't want to trade him for the sake of trading him.

    Oh, and spending $8-12 million on a free agent you don't really need is not free pussy. It's like picking up a girl on your way to your girlfriend's house. Sure, there's a chance that she could be end up being great, but most likely it's just a waste of time and might do more harm than good.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Oh, and spending $8-12 million on a free agent you don't really need is not free pussy. It's like picking up a girl on your way to your girlfriend's house. Sure, there's a chance that she could be end up being great, but most likely it's just a waste of time and might do more harm than good.
    Okay now that quote jeopardised my job a little bit because I laughed too much.Anyway I wouldn't sign Gasol or Jordan at the moment.
    My plan would be of course to determine what the heck is going on with the lockout first - because no GM should make major plans before that is cleared. But for the topic - my first concern would be what can I get for Bargnani - if I can get a top pick,or even just something not horrible I would go for it.Signing Shane Battier doesn't make much sense for the Raptors and also for him.I don't see us going into the playoffs this season - so what would Shane actually do on the Raptors - play a losing season,taking time from guys that really need it - like James Johnson. So...no Shane for my plans.
    I would stick with our Pgs for now unless we get something good for Calderon - I share Tim W.'s opinion for Calderon - he is more valuable to our team for now than what we might get in return.Of course we don't know what offers B-Co got for him but since he wasn't traded I don't think there were really some great deals.
    Let our guys develop together this season - there isn't much we can loose - if we get some great deal - okay yes (don't pass up the free pussy ) that way we get clear idea of Ed,Derozan's development ,how Kleiza recovers,will Amir continue to grow as a player so much,is Alabi good enough for the NBA and is James Johnson capable of being an actual NBA starter. When all that is cleared we can then sign some free agent depending on the results from the past season.And start development of Jonas and our draft pick.

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