Calderon and Amir

[albertan_10]

Two things that are of little consequence but I think people here may find them interesting.

1) Calderon must not have been too injured because he played in the gold medal game this weekend and had a stellar game. http://london2012.fiba.com/pages/eng...7526/game.html in 24 minutes he scored 17 points, had 4 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 steals. that is against a pretty dynamic point guard in Tony Parker.

2) there is an article about amir johnson becoming a star on ESPN. it's an insider article and I don't have access to it. I bet it's interesting and if anyone who pays in to that would like to share what it's all about, that would be great.

[thegreynathan]

The article is about who will move up and down in the player rankings. Here's what he says about Amir:

"Using PER as a measuring stick, Johnson ranked as the 62nd-best player in the NBA last season, ahead of household names such as Joe Johnson, Rajon Rondo and Andre Iguodala. However, the ESPN panel was more bearish about his standing in the league, placing him more than 100 spots behind where he stands in PER.

Why the disparity? One, because he probably still carries the stink of being overpaid last offseason. And two, because PER is a per-minute rating and Johnson happens to be a monster when he plays. Key phrase: when he plays. You see, Johnson fouls a lot. But he's figuring it out. Here's how many times he fouled per 36 minutes in pre- and post-All Star break intervals since the start of 2009-10: 6.8, 5.6, 5.3, 4.4. Progress. At 24, Johnson still has some room to grow, and he's finally learning to keep himself in the game."

[joey_hesketh]

The article is about who will move up and down in the player rankings. Here's what he says about Amir:

"Using PER as a measuring stick, Johnson ranked as the 62nd-best player in the NBA last season, ahead of household names such as Joe Johnson, Rajon Rondo and Andre Iguodala. However, the ESPN panel was more bearish about his standing in the league, placing him more than 100 spots behind where he stands in PER.

Why the disparity? One, because he probably still carries the stink of being overpaid last offseason. And two, because PER is a per-minute rating and Johnson happens to be a monster when he plays. Key phrase: when he plays. You see, Johnson fouls a lot. But he's figuring it out. Here's how many times he fouled per 36 minutes in pre- and post-All Star break intervals since the start of 2009-10: 6.8, 5.6, 5.3, 4.4. Progress. At 24, Johnson still has some room to grow, and he's finally learning to keep himself in the game."

Thanks Nathan!!

I'm going have to call bullshet on his contract affecting his ranking. Thats ridiculous.
The rankings were based off, and rated on, "The current quality of each player."

No where in there does it specify that a players quality has ANYTHING to do with what his contract is worth.

As for the fouls argument ... well I guess you can't really argue with that.
But there is indeed progress being made.

[Tim W.]

Thanks Nathan!!

I'm going have to call bullshet on his contract affecting his ranking. Thats ridiculous.
The rankings were based off, and rated on, "The current quality of each player."

No where in there does it specify that a players quality has ANYTHING to do with what his contract is worth.

As for the fouls argument ... well I guess you can't really argue with that.
But there is indeed progress being made.

What the rankings were SUPPOSED to be based on and what actually affects them are two very different things. Like it or not, personal feelings and other things affect decisions that they shouldn't. That's life.

[joey_hesketh]

What the rankings were SUPPOSED to be based on and what actually affects them are two very different things. Like it or not, personal feelings and other things affect decisions that they shouldn't. That's life.

Indeed, and thats when all credibility goes out the door. haha
When it comes to Responsible Journalism (I know we're talking about ESPN here), one must leave personal biases to the side. Ideally, anyway.

If they wanted to rank Contracts, then that should be a whole other Ranking, but if you're weighing a players Quality; how much he is being paid is a completely useless Stat. Perhaps 'Players Net Worth' or something along those lines would be appropriate to mention contract, but otherwise ... ah forget it - its ESPN. What do I expect.

[Bendit]

Indeed, and thats when all credibility goes out the door. haha
When it comes to Responsible Journalism (I know we're talking about ESPN here), one must leave personal biases to the side. Ideally, anyway.

If they wanted to rank Contracts, then that should be a whole other Ranking, but if you're weighing a players Quality; how much he is being paid is a completely useless Stat. Perhaps 'Players Net Worth' or something along those lines would be appropriate to mention contract, but otherwise ... ah forget it - its ESPN. What do I expect.

This subjective bullshit is getting a bit much for me whether it be done by referees using some kind of "star" hierarchy to determine/pass on the phantom or real fouls when the stars are involved...or by msm media who really should be as objective as possible when it comes to ranking players. There are after all a load of stats now available where issues like salary and looks or the team etc should be of no consequence.

[albertan_10]

thanks for posting that. It emphasizes even more that amir should not be traded when it comes to deciding which of our PF need to go via trade

[Tim W.]

thanks for posting that. It emphasizes even more that amir should not be traded when it comes to deciding which of our PF need to go via trade

I agree. Neither Davis nor Amir should be traded unless it's too good an offer. Trading away young, athletic, rebounding and defensive big men who score efficiently and work hard is probably not the brightest thing to do unless you really improve your team.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I agree. Neither Davis nor Amir should be traded unless it's too good an offer. Trading away young, athletic, rebounding and defensive big men who score efficiently and work hard is probably not the brightest thing to do unless you really improve your team.

I know we've had numerous threads where the pros/cons of trading Amir have been discussed, which have all inevitably broken down into a name-calling thread surrounding the merits of Bargnani (don't they all? lol), but that last point you made should be the crux of any argument about trading any player on the roster. I don't care who the player is, I would be open to trading just about any of them (I would only consider JV/ED untouchable at this point) in a deal that did improve the team. And for the record, unless a player is an absolute cancer to the team, franchise and city, I don't buy the whole 'addition by subtraction' rationale either.

If there were to be a partial season this year, I'd lead towards the Raps keeping all three of Davis/Amir/Bargnani, to see what improvements (if any) they have made in the offseason, while also evaluating their worth across the league as an asset to trade. BC can then potentially trade one of them next offseason, if need be.

Personally, I would still have Amir as the likliest candidate to trade of the three. That would also be my personal preference, for several reasons which I won't get into again in this thread. However, on behalf of those on the 'trade Amir' side of this argument, I would stress 2 points: first, I like Amir as a player and a person; second, I would only trade him on the assumption that I am bringing in an equal/better player that addresses a need at another position. I would only trade him if, as you said, "you really improve your team" by doing so.

[Tim W.]

I know we've had numerous threads where the pros/cons of trading Amir have been discussed, which have all inevitably broken down into a name-calling thread surrounding the merits of Bargnani (don't they all? lol), but that last point you made should be the crux of any argument about trading any player on the roster. I don't care who the player is, I would be open to trading just about any of them (I would only consider JV/ED untouchable at this point) in a deal that did improve the team. And for the record, unless a player is an absolute cancer to the team, franchise and city, I don't buy the whole 'addition by subtraction' rationale either.

If there were to be a partial season this year, I'd lead towards the Raps keeping all three of Davis/Amir/Bargnani, to see what improvements (if any) they have made in the offseason, while also evaluating their worth across the league as an asset to trade. BC can then potentially trade one of them next offseason, if need be.

Personally, I would still have Amir as the likliest candidate to trade of the three. That would also be my personal preference, for several reasons which I won't get into again in this thread. However, on behalf of those on the 'trade Amir' side of this argument, I would stress 2 points: first, I like Amir as a player and a person; second, I would only trade him on the assumption that I am bringing in an equal/better player that addresses a need at another position. I would only trade him if, as you said, "you really improve your team" by doing so.

I just want to add that I've seen the addition by subtraction thing far too many times to discount it.

My feeling about trading Amir, though, is that I don't know if you'd get back as much as he's really worth. And I think there's a good chance you'd end up regretting it down the road.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I just want to add that I've seen the addition by subtraction thing far too many times to discount it.

My feeling about trading Amir, though, is that I don't know if you'd get back as much as he's really worth. And I think there's a good chance you'd end up regretting it down the road.

As much as I have been preferring a trade of Amir over Bargnani, if both JV and Ed develop as most of us hope/expect them to, I'd be willing to bet that neither Amir or Bargnani would be missed nearly as much as their biggest supporters think they would - especially if the Raps were able to get a player and/or top draft pick that wound up adding another stud player who would address a glaring weakness at another position for the long-term for one of them.

And I think that's really the whole observation about both Amir and Bargnani; on an ideal roster, they both have particular strengths that can allow them to be "good" players in their specific support role, but neither are cornerstone players that you should build a franchise around. And that's why neither would likely be missed for very long after a potential trade this or next offseason.

[GarbageTime]

Indeed, and thats when all credibility goes out the door. haha
When it comes to Responsible Journalism (I know we're talking about ESPN here), one must leave personal biases to the side. Ideally, anyway.

If they wanted to rank Contracts, then that should be a whole other Ranking, but if you're weighing a players Quality; how much he is being paid is a completely useless Stat. Perhaps 'Players Net Worth' or something along those lines would be appropriate to mention contract, but otherwise ... ah forget it - its ESPN. What do I expect.

his contract (which is really a great deal and is no where close to a 'stinker') and his foul rate I think were both cop outs. If contracts were at all considered, Gilbert Arenas would be ranked dead last.

I still maintain these guys, in general, don't watch much in the way of Raptors ball (or other out of the way teams that aren't good) and therefore just go by the most current rumour they remember hearing. Those were last years offseason concerns.... they were not very problematic during this season and especially as it progressed.

But as always name is > productivity

[Matt52]

his contract (which is really a great deal and is no where close to a 'stinker') and his foul rate I think were both cop outs. If contracts were at all considered, Gilbert Arenas would be ranked dead last.

I still maintain these guys, in general, don't watch much in the way of Raptors ball (or other out of the way teams that aren't good) and therefore just go by the most current rumour they remember hearing. Those were last years offseason concerns.... they were not very problematic during this season and especially as it progressed.

But as always name is > productivity

I believe it is herd mentality.

[ezz_bee]

I have no problem trading anyone. However, Amir did not sign a bloated contract, he is actually on a REALLY good contract. So if you are going to trade him you have to not only get return on talent but you have to get that talent at a good price. That is a VERY difficult thing to do. However, if you can then go for it, but I don't see a trade there.

[Tim W.]

As much as I have been preferring a trade of Amir over Bargnani, if both JV and Ed develop as most of us hope/expect them to, I'd be willing to bet that neither Amir or Bargnani would be missed nearly as much as their biggest supporters think they would - especially if the Raps were able to get a player and/or top draft pick that wound up adding another stud player who would address a glaring weakness at another position for the long-term for one of them.

And I think that's really the whole observation about both Amir and Bargnani; on an ideal roster, they both have particular strengths that can allow them to be "good" players in their specific support role, but neither are cornerstone players that you should build a franchise around. And that's why neither would likely be missed for very long after a potential trade this or next offseason.

I agree that neither is a cornerstone player, and I foresee Valanciunas and Davis as the starters of the future. The point is that I firmly believe that Amir is EXACTLY the type of big man you want coming off the bench on a contender. He hustles, plays defense, and scores efficiently, but doesn't need the ball to be effective. And he's not going to hurt your team. With Bargnani you're ALWAYS going to have to worry about the other team taking advantage of his poor defense and rebounding. And there is far more danger of him coming off the bench affecting his play. He's FAR more high maintenance than Amir and, quite frankly, without more of a payoff. Last year, Amir consistently had a more positive effect on the team than Bargnani.

And with Valanciunas appearing to be a better scorer than most of us thought, the Raptors aren't going to need Bargnani's scoring nearly as much.

The problem is that if you trade both, then you're going to end up searching high and low for a good big man to come off the bench.

[NoPropsneeded]

I agree that neither is a cornerstone player, and I foresee Valanciunas and Davis as the starters of the future. The point is that I firmly believe that Amir is EXACTLY the type of big man you want coming off the bench on a contender. He hustles, plays defense, and scores efficiently, but doesn't need the ball to be effective. And he's not going to hurt your team. With Bargnani you're ALWAYS going to have to worry about the other team taking advantage of his poor defense and rebounding. And there is far more danger of him coming off the bench affecting his play. He's FAR more high maintenance than Amir and, quite frankly, without more of a payoff. Last year, Amir consistently had a more positive effect on the team than Bargnani.

And with Valanciunas appearing to be a better scorer than most of us thought, the Raptors aren't going to need Bargnani's scoring nearly as much.

The problem is that if you trade both, then you're going to end up searching high and low for a good big man to come off the bench.

i dont think we'll need it at all. We got players like DeMar and Jerryd who could make up for that pretty easily. When JV comes he'll give us the inside scoring presence and with ED improving we'll have two bigs down there capable of scoring, defending and shot blocking.

[er1csh3n]

I really don't get how Demar Derozan ISN'T untouchable, our supposed franchise player? Someone explain why we should trade him? Do you have anything against him personally, because I am extremely happy with his progress..People always mention Ed and JV, but neither of them have elite athleticism(Davis does) nor the potential Derozan has.

[malefax]

I would guess it is partly because it is more of a question mark how good DeMar is going to be. He could potentially be great, but he has two major flaws for a shooting guard: terrible defense and lack of 3-point range. There are no guarantees he will fix those. I hope he will, and it would not be surprising if he does, but the thing is: he might not. Lots of guys neve develop a good three-point stroke, and there are lots of athletic guys who are bad defenders.

[Tim W.]

I really don't get how Demar Derozan ISN'T untouchable, our supposed franchise player? Someone explain why we should trade him? Do you have anything against him personally, because I am extremely happy with his progress..People always mention Ed and JV, but neither of them have elite athleticism(Davis does) nor the potential Derozan has.

No one on the team should be untouchable, but I'd put Valaciunas at the top of the list of players I'd want to trade the least, mostly because we don't know exactly what his potential is and if he ends up being a franchise center, that would be very bad to trade that away.

As for DeRozan, yes he's got athleticism, but lots of players have that. In fact lots of players who never made it to the NBA have that. That's an overrated skill right now, I believe. I do like him and am very optimistic in regards to his future, but I really don't see him ever being a franchise player. He just doesn't have the skill level for that. Outside of scoring, there's literally nothing else he does at an above average rate. I think he's got the potential to be at a Joe Johnson-type player. A perennial All-Star, but the chance of that are probably pretty slim. After two years, he needs to have shown more than he has to make me believe he's going to be anything more than a very good player. That's not a slight. I would love for the Raptors to keep him. I love his hardworking attitude and desire to constantly improve. I highly value those attributes and would love to see all the Raptor players share them.

But if he's not going to be a top 10 player (or even top 20), then he shouldn't be untouchable.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I really don't get how Demar Derozan ISN'T untouchable, our supposed franchise player? Someone explain why we should trade him? Do you have anything against him personally, because I am extremely happy with his progress..People always mention Ed and JV, but neither of them have elite athleticism(Davis does) nor the potential Derozan has.

DeRozan is a SG that has a weak jumper, no three point shot and non-existent defense. It just so happens that he is third in the pecking order (behind Bargnani & Calderon) for picking on his lack of D.

Also, JV and ED aren't untouchable, but it would take a pretty lopsided trade to pry them loose, IMO. If somebody offered a top-5 draft pick for DeRozan, I'd do it in a heartbeat given next year's draft pool. I wouldn't take that offer nearly as quickly if the other team was asking for JV or ED.