I don't think Tim or I were trying to hate on DeRozan, we were just trying to answer your question as to why neither of us would consider him "untouchable".
I think JV could be a stud C on both ends and ED could be the anchor of a team's defense with a nose for rebounding on both ends and garbage clean-up type of baskets from down low on offense. I like DeRozan, but I think he's at a tier below JV & ED, especially given he's had 2 years in the league already, compared to their 0 & 1 years, respectively.
I'm worried that DeRozan is following the same development route as Bargnani - improve the scoring, while continuing to be one-dimensional and a liability on defense. Perhaps the coaching staff is to blame for both Bargnani's and DeRozan's focus strictly on offensive development, who knows? In an ideal world, Bargnani would step on on defense/rebounding effort and DeRozan would develop a consisten jumper from 2-pt & 3-pt range, while also improving on defense... Raps fans can dream, right???
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Sep 21st, 2011 at 03:06 PM.
And neither his scoring nor rebounding doubled. He did increase his scoring, but that was more because he got more shots. And his rebounding rate actually went down a little over his rookie season. I'm not bashing the guy because I do like him as a player, but let's not overstate his skills and effectiveness. No one knows if he is capable of becoming a second option on a contender. Let's see if he can make an All-Star game first.
His scoring went from 8.6 to 17.2, Im pretty sure 8.6x2 is 17.2. I am not talking about his effectiveness but when has a superstar player been effective, Kobe?, Joe Johnson?, Dirk Nowitzski?. His stats may be inflated, but how many people actually average 18 points their sophomore season.
and i hate these arguements about being a great scorer on a bad team. IMO that makes no sense because that player is facing the same opponents as some star player like Kobe, it shouldn't matter what team your on. I know this was off topic but i just needed to put that out there
Again, I'm not bashing the guy, and I believe he's got the makings of a good scorer, and have said so on numerous occasions. But 18 ppg on a bad team doesn't mean nearly as much as you make it seem. Lots of players can score if given the minutes and shots. What questions need to be asked are: How efficient is the scoring, do they score in the flow of the offense or have to force the issue, how effective are they when the game is close, and do they play with blinders on or do they make the right pass when they need to? Most importantly, can do help the team apart from scoring?
Tony Campbell. Campbell was a deep bench player for Detroit and the Lakers in the 80's, but when he signed with Minnesota, an expansion team, he scored 23 ppg. In fact, in his 3 years in Minnesota, one of the worst teams in the league, he averaged 20.6 ppg. Then he was traded to New York, a contender, he never hit double digits in scoring again, and never again played 20 mpg.
The reason is that Campbell could score, when the offense revolved around him and he was given enough shots. But he wasn't a good enough scorer to warrant taking 19 shots per game on a good team, and he wasn't very good at much else, so if he wasn't scoring, he wasn't of that much use.
A current player example is Marcus Thornton. The last 3 months of his rookie season he averaged nearly 20 ppg. Of course the team went 10-24 in that period. The next season, with a healthy Chris Paul, the team became a playoff team, but he couldn't get consistent minutes and was traded to Sacramento, a bad team, where he averaged 21.3 ppg. The problem in New Orleans is that he can't play defense to save his life, and does absolutely nothing else other than score, and he's not really a good enough scorer to warrant taking 18 shots per game on a good team.
Other players in this category: Corey Maggette, Al Harrington, Bargnani, Monta Ellis. All these players are very good scorers, but aren't good enough PLAYERS to do it on a good team.
I recall a fan site years ago talking about an incident one of the writers remembered vividly. Seems the biggest stiff in the NBA (at that time...can't remember the name) was coming to the local community to participate in a benefit game fund raiser. This guy couldn't shoot, had stone hands, always seemed to be last up the court etc. One of the fansite writers had been a good college player and he, along with a bunch of the local hotshots, was licking his chops at a chance to show up a real NBA player.
Of course, come the game and this big stiff made all of them look like a grade four intramural players trying their luck against the varsity super star. The point being that context is everything. Cut glass looks nice against a background of black construction paper, but if you want it to shine in a gold setting, it needs to be a diamond.
To be considered a true "star", you need to be an all-around player that contributes on both ends of the court. Toronto's problem is that they haven't had a "star" since Vince Carter, before he signed his fat contract. Toronto has continually elevated good role players onto the "star" pedestal - Bosh, Bargnani, DeRozan are the three latest stars. It is really unfair to them as players, as it puts unjustified expectations on them and causes fans to turn against them when they don't fulfill potential that was never really there to begin with.
On a team with a legitimate "star" as the focal point and a true defensive anchor (which I hope ED and JV can become in time), players like DeRozan and Bargnani could surely thrive, when only asked to score. They have skills and more room for improvement in all facets of their games, but they likely will never become "star" players. This is why neither of them should be considered untouchable. JV & ED have talent and potential, which could see them become "star" players, but only time and experience with determine whether or not it comes to fruition... and as fans, we should allow them that time and experince before branding them the next great this-or-that or busts... don't heap unwarranted expectations on their shoulders, just enjoy them as players and hope for the best for them and this team.
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:27 AM.
Demar DOES score within the Offense, he does so within his own abilities; and generally does not force any shots.
He puts forth effort on the defensive end, and though he may not be the Kobe-stopper we need RIGHT NOW, I think he has the tools to develop a VERY good defensive game.
I think having a guy like Jose helps control that problem a little bit as well, as he decides who gets the ball, and where they get it.
Unlike in Milwaukee, (and OKC with Westbrook) where Jennings has the ability to bring the ball up AND kill the possesion all in a matter of 7 seconds, can be VERY detrimental to the team.
Demar is not in the position, and thus he MUST wait for this shots, or work hard to get them.
He improved trumendously on his movement off the ball last year, and I expect it to only get better this season.
He has proven he can score, and do so fairly efficiently.
And while some put TOO MUCH weight on this ability, I think some put TOO LITTLE weight on it as well.
As a 22 year old, I don't think ANY of us really know what type of player he can potentially be, except for Demar. And I think he has some VERY lofty goals for himself.
"I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant
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