View Poll Results: Who, if anyone, to cut in an Amnesty Clause?

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  • Calderon

    6 22.22%
  • Barbosa

    0 0%
  • Amir

    1 3.70%
  • Barbosa

    0 0%
  • Bargnani

    5 18.52%
  • No one

    15 55.56%
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Thread: Who, if anyone, to cut given an Amnesty Clause?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying the Raps, if they ever had the opportunity (which I don't think they will but thats neither here nor there), shouldn't sign him. I think he is fun to watch, and is a talented player. I just think people have been too high on these scoring PGs yet few have proven they can take their team to the top. Even moreso that he decided to try and take games over himself when he had the best scorer in the league beside him.... think Dallas would have turned out the same if they didn't stick with going to Dirk?

    As for OKC not having scoring options.... well they have, arguably, the best scorer in the game. They also have a great scoring 6th man in Harden. So what exactly do these other teams have:

    Chicago.... Boozer and Deng?

    Portland.... Aldridge and Mathews?

    Dallas.... Nowitzki and Terry?

    Memphis.... Randolph and?

    NO.... West and?

    Boston... Pierce and Ray. KG still has game.

    SA.... Ginobli, Duncan and Hill



    I don't know... its not like all these other teams are riddled with scoring options either. And not a single one of them have Durant, which pretty much give OKC an edge over most.

    As for age.... well I can name a ton of NBA players who were young once and didn't do squat, didn't improve or didn't change. Not saying Westbrook will be like that, but age is often just a red herring
    The high scoring point guard is an old debate. Parker got the Spurs championships, Isiah got the Pistons championships, Magic Johnson got the Lakers championships, Billups got the Pistons a championship. PG's can score and win championships. There is no one set formula to winning a championship.

    OKC does have the best scorer in the game and a good sixth man in Harden. Where have I disputed this? What I said was they have nothing very little after those 2 and Westbrook. That is the point. The Grizzlies and Mavs focus on containing Durant and not letting him do what he wants, not letting him get the ball where he normally gets it and that disrupts everything else OKC is trying to do. This is more an issue of Brooks with strategy and Presti with roster than Westbrook, in my opinion.


    Porland has 6 players who scored more than 10 ppg.

    Chicago had 4 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    Dallas had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    Memphis had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg with Gay and 5 without (Allen upped his scoring).

    NO had 6 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    BOS had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    SA had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.


    What does OKC have?

    OKC had 3 players who scored more than 10ppg after the trade of Jeff Green.

    As for Westbrook's age and the comments made, he has done quite a bit more than squat and he has shown improvement every year in the league. He is not a finished product and the amount of criticism he has received is underserving considering OKC has made the playoffs 2 of the 3 years he has been in the league.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Oct 2nd, 2011 at 06:24 PM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The high scoring point guard is an old debate. Parker got the Spurs championships, Isiah got the Pistons championships, Magic Johnson got the Lakers championships, Billups got the Pistons a championship. PG's can score and win championships. There is no one set formula to winning a championship.

    OKC does have the best scorer in the game and a good sixth man in Harden. Where have I disputed this? What I said was they have nothing very little after those 2 and Westbrook. That is the point. The Grizzlies and Mavs focus on containing Durant and not letting him do what he wants, not letting him get the ball where he normally gets it and that disrupts everything else OKC is trying to do. This is more an issue of Brooks with strategy and Presti with roster than Westbrook, in my opinion.


    Porland has 6 players who scored more than 10 ppg.

    Chicago had 4 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    Dallas had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    Memphis had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg with Gay and 5 without (Allen upped his scoring).

    NO had 6 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    BOS had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

    SA had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.


    What does OKC have?

    OKC had 3 players who scored more than 10ppg after the trade of Jeff Green.

    As for Westbrook's age and the comments made, he has done quite a bit more than squat and he has shown improvement every year in the league. He is not a finished product and the amount of criticism he has received is underserving considering OKC has made the playoffs 2 of the 3 years he has been in the league.
    Tony Parker I'll give you. But lets not neglect to mention that Magic was one of the best passers in the history of the NBA. No one in their right mind would call him a scoring PG. Billups has never clocked more than 13 FGA a game for his career... thats supposed to be a "scoring" PG? Thats probably only a bit above average for any starter in the NBA, let alone a perennial all-star. Isaih averaged 15 and 16 FGA a game during his championship seasons.... but took the same amount for the playoffs in his championship years...thats what three quarters of what Westbrook was jacking up this post season? (I won't even get into how we are talking 2 shooting PGs (Parker and Isaih) over a 30 year span here... )

    On top of that there is a HUGE difference between a scoring PG and a PG who can score. HUGE. Nash, Chris Paul and Deron Williams each drop 20 a game for a season on average... but you don't hear people talk about them as scoring PGs.

    I'm also not saying Westbrook is necessarily a shoot first PG. But he was these playoffs..... and even worse he was trying to do it with THE BEST SCORER IN THE NBA 2 YEARS RUNNING BESIDE HIM. That is just an absolutely terrible decision. There is no way Durant should be taking the same amount of shots in more minutes than, well, maybe anyone in the league let alone one of his teammates.

    And if 10 pts a game is a good scoring average, then all of a sudden OKC has 4 aswell with Ibaka who averaged 10 a game... unless 9.9 is getting excluded. So suddenly they are right in the same boat as most of these other teams.

    Ofcourse if we are talking 10 a game for the postseason, those numbers you mentioned change to... Boston only had 4, Memphis only had 4, Chicago 4, Dallas 4, NO 4, SA 4.... seems pretty close to equal to me.

    Finally I never said he did squat, nor am I trying to discredit the guy... and yes he has shown improvement, and I never said he wouldn't show more. But age is still a red herring.... everyone who has ever played in the NBA was 'young' and in the NBA once (well excluding a few).

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Tony Parker I'll give you. But lets not neglect to mention that Magic was one of the best passers in the history of the NBA. No one in their right mind would call him a scoring PG. Billups has never clocked more than 13 FGA a game for his career... thats supposed to be a "scoring" PG? Thats probably only a bit above average for any starter in the NBA, let alone a perennial all-star. Isaih averaged 15 and 16 FGA a game during his championship seasons.... but took the same amount for the playoffs in his championship years...thats what three quarters of what Westbrook was jacking up this post season? (I won't even get into how we are talking 2 shooting PGs (Parker and Isaih) over a 30 year span here... )

    On top of that there is a HUGE difference between a scoring PG and a PG who can score. HUGE. Nash, Chris Paul and Deron Williams each drop 20 a game for a season on average... but you don't hear people talk about them as scoring PGs.

    I'm also not saying Westbrook is necessarily a shoot first PG. But he was these playoffs..... and even worse he was trying to do it with THE BEST SCORER IN THE NBA 2 YEARS RUNNING BESIDE HIM. That is just an absolutely terrible decision. There is no way Durant should be taking the same amount of shots in more minutes than, well, maybe anyone in the league let alone one of his teammates.

    And if 10 pts a game is a good scoring average, then all of a sudden OKC has 4 aswell with Ibaka who averaged 10 a game... unless 9.9 is getting excluded. So suddenly they are right in the same boat as most of these other teams.

    Ofcourse if we are talking 10 a game for the postseason, those numbers you mentioned change to... Boston only had 4, Memphis only had 4, Chicago 4, Dallas 4, NO 4, SA 4.... seems pretty close to equal to me.

    Finally I never said he did squat, nor am I trying to discredit the guy... and yes he has shown improvement, and I never said he wouldn't show more. But age is still a red herring.... everyone who has ever played in the NBA was 'young' and in the NBA once (well excluding a few).
    Again the scoring PG leading a championship team is an old debate. It has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. The game has also changed in the last 30 years in which there have only been 10 teams to win the championship with 3 of those teams winning just once (PHI, MIA, DAL) and 1 team twice (HOU). That leaves 6 teams winning 25 championships. Hopefully someone is picking up my point here because I've lost it, lol.

    (off topic, how many championships have Nash, Paul, and Williams won?)

    Back to Westbrook, the guy just finished his third NBA season. Why the beef with him? If you are not trying to discredit the guy, why the backlash in trying to position the team to be able to make a run at signing him sign in Toronto?

    I think you are missing my point on Westbrook in the playoffs. The way the Thunder have been built it is a two and a half men (Durant, Westbrook and Harden).

    When the defense freezes out Durant, where is the ball going to go? Ibaka? Collison? Perkins? Sefolosha? Who else is on the team capable of scoring or creating their own? Look at the roster.

    I picked 10 points a game because it is double digits and it was striking compared to the other teams. How about we look at it from another perspective. The total number of points scored by the top 6 scorers points NOT counting the top 2 scorers (i.e. 3-6) using playoff stats:

    Porland has 37.1 points.

    Chicago has 45.1 points.

    Dallas has 38.1 points.

    Memphis has 42.6 points.

    NO has 38.3 points.

    BOS has 42.8 points.

    SA has 38.6.


    As for OKC, they have 34.3.

    If I had the time and inclination to break down the percentage of total points being scored by players 3-6 compared to the team, I feel confident it would show that OKC's supporting cast is contributing much less than other teams - especially considering Durant and Westbrook themselves were combining for 52.4 points which is more than any other duo in the playoffs.

    My point remains, OKC has a team geared around two players. If Westbrook has the ball and the other teams' defense is geared towards denying Durant the ball and/or making him catch it out of position (and there being little other credible scoring options either through coach's system or GM's roster) Westbrook is going to end up taking a lot of shots.

    I'm not saying Westbrook played awesome in the playoffs - far from it. I'm not saying he couldn't have done a better job getting Durant involved.

    What I am saying is I believe he can and will continue to improve - especially considering he came out of college labelled a combo guard. What I am saying is if the Raptors can place themselves in a position to go after him by waiving Calderon, I'd do it. In my opinion he has franchise talent and he is not far behind Derrick Rose. Needless to say he would be the best player on the Raptors and for a team in desperate need of a talent influx that would be a very good thing.

  4. #44
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Again the scoring PG leading a championship team is an old debate. It has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. The game has also changed in the last 30 years in which there have only been 10 teams to win the championship with 3 of those teams winning just once (PHI, MIA, DAL) and 1 team twice (HOU). That leaves 6 teams winning 25 championships. Hopefully someone is picking up my point here because I've lost it, lol.

    (off topic, how many championships have Nash, Paul, and Williams won?)

    Back to Westbrook, the guy just finished his third NBA season. Why the beef with him? If you are not trying to discredit the guy, why the backlash in trying to position the team to be able to make a run at signing him sign in Toronto?

    I think you are missing my point on Westbrook in the playoffs. The way the Thunder have been built it is a two and a half men (Durant, Westbrook and Harden).

    When the defense freezes out Durant, where is the ball going to go? Ibaka? Collison? Perkins? Sefolosha? Who else is on the team capable of scoring or creating their own? Look at the roster.

    I picked 10 points a game because it is double digits and it was striking compared to the other teams. How about we look at it from another perspective. The total number of points scored by the top 6 scorers points NOT counting the top 2 scorers (i.e. 3-6) using playoff stats:

    Porland has 37.1 points.

    Chicago has 45.1 points.

    Dallas has 38.1 points.

    Memphis has 42.6 points.

    NO has 38.3 points.

    BOS has 42.8 points.

    SA has 38.6.


    As for OKC, they have 34.3.

    If I had the time and inclination to break down the percentage of total points being scored by players 3-6 compared to the team, I feel confident it would show that OKC's supporting cast is contributing much less than other teams - especially considering Durant and Westbrook themselves were combining for 52.4 points which is more than any other duo in the playoffs.

    My point remains, OKC has a team geared around two players. If Westbrook has the ball and the other teams' defense is geared towards denying Durant the ball and/or making him catch it out of position (and there being little other credible scoring options either through coach's system or GM's roster) Westbrook is going to end up taking a lot of shots.

    I'm not saying Westbrook played awesome in the playoffs - far from it. I'm not saying he couldn't have done a better job getting Durant involved.

    What I am saying is I believe he can and will continue to improve - especially considering he came out of college labelled a combo guard. What I am saying is if the Raptors can place themselves in a position to go after him by waiving Calderon, I'd do it. In my opinion he has franchise talent and he is not far behind Derrick Rose. Needless to say he would be the best player on the Raptors and for a team in desperate need of a talent influx that would be a very good thing.

    its kind of tough to look at those teams and neglect the approx. 40 FGA and the almost 80 minutes Durant and Westbrook consumed for their team. Ofcourse there will be less scoring when those guys likely took more shots than any other 2 teammates in the league. Maybe Lebron and Wade matched them.

    Considering Westbrook had, the worst % on his team (? or close to it if not), 4.6 turnovers a game and tied with Durant for the most shots, its not exactly a stretch to think his teammates may have actually scored if he passed the ball more.


    Again I've always like Westbrook. I think he's exciting to watch, he's a competitor and he's intense. Hopefully this was a learning experience for him.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    They actually already have stipulations like this in most NBA contracts.
    Remember when Monta Ellis was injured on the Moped? Golden State was in FULL right to Release him and void his contract.
    Most dangerous activities are included on this 'list'.
    It's good they have that. I didn't know.

    Truthfully, I'd like the NBA to have non-guaranteed contracts with NO stipulations. You start to suck the minute you signed your big contract? Goodbye. You bring guns to the locker room? Bye. You hit your girlfriend? You make inappropriate comments about the coach to the media/Twitter? Buh-bye.

    But I realize that such extremes would never get approved. I truly believe the NBA needs something to eliminate some of the nonsense. Perhaps I'm a jaded old man but I just think the NBA needs to grow up a bit.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    It's good they have that. I didn't know.

    Truthfully, I'd like the NBA to have non-guaranteed contracts with NO stipulations. You start to suck the minute you signed your big contract? Goodbye. You bring guns to the locker room? Bye. You hit your girlfriend? You make inappropriate comments about the coach to the media/Twitter? Buh-bye.

    But I realize that such extremes would never get approved. I truly believe the NBA needs something to eliminate some of the nonsense. Perhaps I'm a jaded old man but I just think the NBA needs to grow up a bit.
    You better not be waving your finger at me, ebrian. I have kids.






    yeah, that doesn't come off juvenile or childish at all. Hopefully you are familiar with Dwayne Wade's shouting at David Stern.

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