View Poll Results: Who, if anyone, to cut in an Amnesty Clause?

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  • Calderon

    6 22.22%
  • Barbosa

    0 0%
  • Amir

    1 3.70%
  • Barbosa

    0 0%
  • Bargnani

    5 18.52%
  • No one

    15 55.56%
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Thread: Who, if anyone, to cut given an Amnesty Clause?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Who, if anyone, to cut given an Amnesty Clause?

    http://www.thecheapseats.ca/2011/09/...-fortunes.html

    Will the Raptors be handed a significant tool in their rebuilding in the new CBA? The Oregonianís John Canzano has two sources telling him yes, in the form of another Amnesty Clause similar to the one from 2005.
    This new version of the amnesty clause, if it is indeed put into the new CBA when it is finally negotiated, offers one key difference than the 2005 version: salary cap relief. In 2005, teamís still had to deal with the cap implications of whatever player they chose to waive, but in 2011 they owners are pushing hard to get the cap relief along with the tax relief, which could mean a big leg-up for a team like Toronto.

    Bryan Colangelo and the Raptors saw a more restrictive CBA coming, and they tuned their salary structure accordingly. They paid out just under $70-million last season, whereas they are slated to owe only $47-million next season as currently constructed. Now, clearly that figure will increase once free agency is allowed to begin, but that figure could also be significantly lower if the Raptors are allowed to waive a player without cap or tax obligations remaining behind to haunt them. That makes their current, and possibly their future, free agent buying powers remarkably more potent, and depending on whom they waive - if anyone - it could appreciably reshape the teamís immediate fortunes.

    So who might they consider waiving? Here is a list of candidates for them (and you) to consider, in order of their 2011-2012 salary.
    Jose Calderon
    Owed $9.8-million in 2011-2012, $20.3-million over the next two years
    Leandro Barbosa
    Owed $7.6-million in 2011-2012, the final year of his contract
    Amir Johnson
    Owed $5.5-million in 2011-2012, $18-million guaranteed over the next three years, $7-million unguaranteed in 2014-2015
    Linas Kleiza
    Owed $4.6-million in 2011-2012, $13.8-million over the next three years
    The option they do not discuss is Andrea Bargnani who is owed $42M over the next 4 seasons (2011-12 included).

    Everyone else are on rookie deals (DD, ED, JJ, Solo, Bayless).


    Who would you cut, if anyone?

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I would lean towards no one.

    This assumes Calderon CAN be traded. If there is no trade available that makes the Raptors better, I would cut him.

    The main reason would be having his salary off the books for the summer of 2012. Without his contract and the addition of JV and another high draft pick in addition to what is already on the roster, the Raptors could be major players on the 2012 free agent scene that includes a top PG like Russell Westbrook who will be just turning 24 at the start of the 2012-13 season.

  3. #3
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    Sorry, but what idiot picked Amir? He's got the best non-rookie contract on the entire team!

    I agree with Matt about cutting no one. The Raptors don't need the cap room, yet, and they'll have one of the lower payrolls in the league anyway. I don't see the point in getting rid of what little talent the Raptors already have. They need to add talent, not get rid of it.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    I could maybe see it being used on Kleiza, there is a big question mark as to how well he will play coming back from injury. He has a player option in 2013/14 that I would not like to see exercised if he is a shell of his former self...that being said I am hoping the guy comes back ready to ball.

  5. #5
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would lean towards no one.

    This assumes Calderon CAN be traded. If there is no trade available that makes the Raptors better, I would cut him.

    The main reason would be having his salary off the books for the summer of 2012. Without his contract and the addition of JV and another high draft pick in addition to what is already on the roster, the Raptors could be major players on the 2012 free agent scene that includes a top PG like Russell Westbrook who will be just turning 24 at the start of the 2012-13 season.
    If I understand this clause correctly, it is a straight cut with nothing in return. Unless you are a team that is way over the luxury tax, does it even make sense to cut someone and get nothing in return but cap space?

    As for Jose, he has been discussed in a few forums lately and I have to agree with Tim on his view that Jose is a valuable piece for the Raptors. He is one of the best offensive point guards in the league and I do not see him as a defensive liability. I don't feel he is as poor a defender as he is made out to be. ALL point guards in the league get beaten regularly it is the toughest position to defend. If the defensive support of the back court was better he would not look nearly as exposed.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    If I understand this clause correctly, it is a straight cut with nothing in return. Unless you are a team that is way over the luxury tax, does it even make sense to cut someone and get nothing in return but cap space?

    As for Jose, he has been discussed in a few forums lately and I have to agree with Tim on his view that Jose is a valuable piece for the Raptors. He is one of the best offensive point guards in the league and I do not see him as a defensive liability. I don't feel he is as poor a defender as he is made out to be. ALL point guards in the league get beaten regularly it is the toughest position to defend. If the defensive support of the back court was better he would not look nearly as exposed.
    The clause will provide salary cap space. That is not needed for the Raptors in 2011-12 however it could be very important in the summer of 2012 - which is the foundation for suggesting buying out Calderon. Your second paragraph is all opinion, which you are entitled to, and most of it I would consider to be factual. The problem is Jose is not worth $10.5M in 2012-13 no matter what, in my opinion, given his talent, age, injury history, and insistence on representing Spain every summer.

    As I said in my post which you quoted, if he can be traded and the team is made better - great, do not buy him out, trade him. However, having his contract on the books for the summer of 2012 would not be a good thing, in my opinion. Subtract Calderon and the Raptors have a payroll of $29M (plus JV, plus 2012 pick(s)). OKC will have a payroll of $44.5M not including Westbrook. They will also have Harden and Ibaka up for extensions in the summer of 2013. They also have a very good young PG currently sitting on the bench in Eric Maynor.

    If, and it is definitely a big if, Toronto were able to come along and offer a max contract to Westbrook, I think they could have a shot at landing him. With him being 24 one month after 2012-13 starts he is young enough to lead and grow with the team. The allure of being Batman versus Robin may also entice him. Having a back court mate like DD, a wing such as Miller or Barnes, and a rotation of bigs like Toronto currently has may also be appealing. Toronto might also be in a situation where they could draft Andre Drummond or Anthony Davis and be in a situation where Ed Davis might return another high draft pick. Who knows what could happen with a little luck.

    The bottom line for me is the Raptors, with a little long-time-coming luck, might be one of the most desirable places for a top free agent to land in less than a year. Having Calderon tying up $10.5M of precious cap space might not make it possible.

    For what it is worth, I do not buy the argument players do not want to play here. Money and a chance to win.

  7. #7
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    No one. Looks like there wont be a season so next season Calderon will be in the final year of his deal and will have some value as an expiring. The only person I would consider is Bargnani but even he has a good contract for his worth. I would only pull the trigger on him if he is no longer part of the teams future plans and if we can't find any good trades.

  8. #8
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    I wouldn't do it to Calderon, since he only has two years left and still can be very productive coming off the bench (the problem is that we don't bring off of the bench, and when we do it's all like "He's back! Start him again"). Also, who the hell wouldn't want Calderon when he's an expiring contract? He's been declining pretty fast, but ehh...

    Using it on Amir would be ineffably stupid.

    Klezia been completely terrible, and is coming off a serious injury and consequential surgery...but that such a small contract to use it on. He was quite a productive bench player during his time in Denver too...

    Bargnani's one of the least productive players in the league, and we have cheaper, younger and far more productive players behind him in the depth chart. His contract could be the real albatross depending on the new CBA. But with him starting taking the same amount of shots, we're a lock for another bottom 5 finish. And we need that centerpiece via the draft. If/when Casey isn't able to get through to him, his trade value could completely plummet, assuming that we also grab a stop gap C, but that shouldn't be a problem if the team isn't stupid enough to give him 3 months, especially since they're apparently not ignoring advanced stats anymore. Move him by Xmas (assuming the season starts normally lolololol...) and we can still get something decent.

    I choose...Klezia, if we have to do it. I'd be perfectly fine doing nothing, tbh. It should be Bargnani, but we need him to command the tank this season, whenever the hell that will be.

  9. #9
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    I did forget about Kleiza, which you have to think about. He's still got 3 more years left and if he struggles with his health, then you're not going to want his salary taking up room and him taking up a roster spot. I still probably would go with no one, but if a decision was made that someone needed to be cut, I'd do Kleiza.

    As for Calderon, Matt and I have had this discussion before. I don't think Calderon's contract is that much of a problem because I look at it as a placeholder for DeRozan's next contract. I don't think Calderon's contract will prevent the team from signing who they want (if they do decide to), and he helps the other players develop offensively, so I think he's valuable to the team. With Bayless running the show, the other players probably won't be getting the ball a) as much and b) in as good a scoring position as Calderon gives it. So their offensive development might suffer a little.

    Calderon and Kleiza should be the only ones even in the conversation because I don't see it being that difficult to move anyone else and get value in return, so why cut them.
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  10. #10
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    No question in my mind its Bargnani. I'd say wait until the last minute to see if there is any trade possible, but if not see ya.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I did forget about Kleiza, which you have to think about. He's still got 3 more years left and if he struggles with his health, then you're not going to want his salary taking up room and him taking up a roster spot. I still probably would go with no one, but if a decision was made that someone needed to be cut, I'd do Kleiza.

    As for Calderon, Matt and I have had this discussion before. I don't think Calderon's contract is that much of a problem because I look at it as a placeholder for DeRozan's next contract. I don't think Calderon's contract will prevent the team from signing who they want (if they do decide to), and he helps the other players develop offensively, so I think he's valuable to the team. With Bayless running the show, the other players probably won't be getting the ball a) as much and b) in as good a scoring position as Calderon gives it. So their offensive development might suffer a little.

    Calderon and Kleiza should be the only ones even in the conversation because I don't see it being that difficult to move anyone else and get value in return, so why cut them.
    Tim, we have definitely discussed this before. This is the first time you brought up the bolded section above that I am aware of. Good point.

    However, I don't think one can hold on to him if he can be traded or receive cap space via the amnesty. Looking at the end of the regular season (albeit in a small sample size and in games with little meaning), players like DD, ED and JJ played just as well or better without him - not to mention Bayless. He and Amir definitely have chemistry but I don't think it makes enough of a difference to not avail of the financial flexibility his trade/buyout would create for next summer.

    Regardless of what armchair GM's like myself think will be best it will nonetheless be interesting to see what actually happens. The Raptors really could be on the cusp of greatness in a couple of seasons if one or two lucky breaks fall their way.

  12. #12
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Tim, we have definitely discussed this before. This is the first time you brought up the bolded section above that I am aware of. Good point.

    However, I don't think one can hold on to him if he can be traded or receive cap space via the amnesty. Looking at the end of the regular season (albeit in a small sample size and in games with little meaning), players like DD, ED and JJ played just as well or better without him - not to mention Bayless. He and Amir definitely have chemistry but I don't think it makes enough of a difference to not avail of the financial flexibility his trade/buyout would create for next summer.

    Regardless of what armchair GM's like myself think will be best it will nonetheless be interesting to see what actually happens. The Raptors really could be on the cusp of greatness in a couple of seasons if one or two lucky breaks fall their way.
    Actually, I have brought up that before with you. Twice I believe (once during a discussion in the trades forum). I remember being puzzled you never commented on it. I guess you never noticed it. What, my posts too long for you, or something???

    Anyway, if the Raptors can get something of value for him, I've always said they should, but I completely disagree with cutting him. I don't think his salary at all hinders the club from making any move, so I don't see what the point is. Especially when they could get something of value for him down the line when his contract is smaller. Especially with the new CBA. The likelihood of luring a good enough free agent where you'd need the money BEFORE his contract expires is pretty slim, in my opinion.
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  13. #13
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I agree with most of the comments about keeping Calderon.
    - only 2 years left, one if this season is a wash and a year comes off all contracts
    - could be valuable trade asset as a good veteran pass-first PG with an expiring contract

    The one question I had was if the Raptors could cut him and then re-sign him for much less money. That way the Raptors could keep him as a player and a potential PG mentor after the next season or two, but at a much more attractive cost.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Calderon for me. His hamstring is in bad shape and has lost his shot. I know he's a good guy but at 10 Mil, he's gotta go. I mean, even if he's healthy, a 10 Mil backup is not sound on any team.
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  15. #15
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I agree with most of the comments about keeping Calderon.
    - only 2 years left, one if this season is a wash and a year comes off all contracts
    - could be valuable trade asset as a good veteran pass-first PG with an expiring contract

    The one question I had was if the Raptors could cut him and then re-sign him for much less money. That way the Raptors could keep him as a player and a potential PG mentor after the next season or two, but at a much more attractive cost.
    On the last amnesty clause that was a condition of the buy out: no resigning a cut player by the same team. I would imagine it would be similar this time around - but who knows.

  16. #16
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    Caldy for sure. Out with the old and in with the new. I'd love that $20 million off the books!

  17. #17
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    The poll seems really odd to me. Why would you cut either Calderon or Bargnani. Calderon has just 2 years left, and is probably the best PG the Raptors will have (even at his current age) for quite some time. And I'd rather keep Bargnani and trade him for something instead of just letting him go. Right now, the only player I'd cut is Kleiza, but I still think his contract is decent and if he gets healthy he's a pretty good player.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Bill Simmons and Johnathan Abrams discuss this very topic.
    Good in depth look at the scenario and consequences.

    Here's what they had to say about the Raps:
    TORONTO RAPTORS

    Abrams: Linas Kleiza. It would be tempting for the Raptors to use the clause on Jose Calderon, whose contract guarantees him $20.3 million over the next two years. Kleiza's contract (signed last summer) is equally awful and pays him $13.8 million through 2013-14.

    Simmons: Disagree. I'd rather chop Calderon's $20.3 million. I'm pretty sure paying eight figures a year for a backup point guard isn't getting you anywhere with a harder cap. Although really, they should see if they can use the clause on Bryan Colangelo — that's the worst single Raptors contract, right?
    Rough. Burns Colangelo pretty bad there.
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  19. #19
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Bill Simmons and Johnathan Abrams discuss this very topic.
    Good in depth look at the scenario and consequences.

    Here's what they had to say about the Raps:


    Rough. Burns Colangelo pretty bad there.
    I thought Simmons was pretty funny in it.

    Do you realize that one of us has suggested a combined total of THIRTEEN amnesty guys who were signed or extended in the summer of 2010? Jermaine O'Neal, Linas Kleiza, Carlos Boozer, Travis Outlaw, Josh Childress, David Lee, Mike Miller, Ryan Gomes, Darko Milicic, Richard Jefferson, Drew Gooden, Al Harrington and Brendan Haywood. The owners' complaining about player salaries being too high is like the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills complaining about being in the public eye. It makes no sense
    pretty amazing....

  20. #20
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I thought Simmons was pretty funny in it.



    pretty amazing....
    Simmons had a few GEMS.

    I especially liked this one:
    What if the Magic amnesty'd Arenas, then traded Hedo and J.J. Redick to Atlanta for Joe Johnson? That's the best possible teammate out there for Dwight Howard; meanwhile, Atlanta could use the clause on Hedo (wiping $11.1 million off their 2012 cap) and turn Johnson ($107.3 million remaining through 2016) into Redick ($12.9 million through 2013) while dropping their 2012 cap from $66.56 to $55.3 million. I'm a genius. How am I not running a team, Abrams?
    Or:
    Simmons: We should use the amnesty clause on Charlotte.
    Zing!! HAHAHA!


    One more:
    Simmons: Sam Presti is a better mant han I. I'd be holding press conferences and saying things like, "Really? Otis Smith overpays Rashard Lewis by $50 million, then makes it worse by trading him for Arenas … and we're throwing him a freaking life jacket? Really? REALLY?????? You know who I'm using my amnesty on? ROYAL IVEY! HE MAKES 10 F*CKING DOLLARS AN HOUR! YOU GUYS SUCK! F*CK YOU!!!!!!!!!!"
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Sep 27th, 2011 at 10:31 PM.
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