Last edited by Soft Euro; Thu Oct 6th, 2011 at 07:55 PM.
In the 2005 scenario, Large salaried teams (or typical Contenders as stats do prove), benefited greatly from the program. The same will happen with this version.
Allowing teams to resign their players - as free agents - has a certain logic to it.
- It minimizes the flood of free agents (whether by dubious means or not) - and the tendency for these F/A's to double dip in a significant way.
- It will bring some of the Big Spending teams on-board with a new CBA (or more likely to accept other detrimental issues).
- Flooding the F/A market with "available" players, might also run counter to what the players union would like to see happen - and its' impact on salaries. Returning players to their respective teams (again, dubious or not) could ease this concern. Of course some players could move to strong Contenders (like Miami), and further imbalance the situation. That could be corrected with some kind of rule limit.
Granted, there are some holes to my points, but not knowing what is being given up in a new CBA, and what is not, doesn't allow us to know what trade-offs are getting made to get this deal done.
Small market teams might feel it's a option they can stomach, in order to keep the troops in line. For the players union, it will appease any discontent that an Amnesty program might have, in shuffling players off a team they'd prefer to remain with.
Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Thu Oct 6th, 2011 at 07:34 PM.
As for your list, I don't really see anything wrong with the list per se. It's just that personally I think dumping guys like that is bad asset management (TimW and SoftEuro have discussed various specifics at length). Now, you may be right and the new FA system and contracts might create some inefficiencies that smart teams can exploit by using the amnesty clause. I just can't see what those inefficiencies are at the moment.
It shouldn't matter if the team making the cut wishes to resign the player. The amnesty clause is designed to cut the teams a break while not at the expense of the player. Putting extra restrictions on it such as not permitting the team to resign the player is ridiculous in my opinion. It's a one time opportunity and it's limited to one player per team. If the team is over the cap then they can only use the vet minimum to re-sign the player... Or the MLE. If that player is willing to come back for the vet minimum then who cares? It's their choice, let them do it. Every team has the same opportunity to dump a contract and it's up to management to make the most out of it. If that includes bringing back the player then so be it, why make it more complicated than it needs to be? Like RapthoseLeafs and I've said, it's already a different beast from what we heard, so to assume it's going to follow the logic of the last clause when it's already moving away from it doesn't sound like a great assumption to me. Ultimately its the owners who decide if the teams should be allowed to resign the player and so I don't see why they're going to block it this time around when they've already been setting their sights on more freedom regarding the clause to begin with. What I'm interested in is how they handle player options in this clause.
Marc Stein "Houston, Finley gone; other big names staying put" ESPN.com, 2005.
I don't think he will be either, but its more because BC has shown a complete unwillingness to give up on him. 'Talent' is obviously a very subjective statement.... there is no shortage of 'talent' in the NBA. Whats important is how one can apply/use that talent. He hasn't shown to be able to use it effectively or efficiently.I don't think Bargnani will be in the guillotine for multiple reasons. First off he's super talented, young and seven foot
He has value to this team and other teamstake this for what you will:Furthermore I feel his market value is higher than his Raptors fan value. He's an asset, one of the biggest on the team,
hardly a glowing endorsement of his 'value'
(yes I know the source, and yes I realize these are just fans but I don't think Andrea's value is nearly as high as people want to believe)
Imagine this. Bargnani is not a Raptor. Who would you be willing to trade on this team for Andrea?
Maybe. Like Sam did? Or Jay?Maybe Casey can get through to him.
that ofcourse assumes Bargnani would work night and day.He's never had a defensive specialist of this level working with him night and day...
"I guess I'm just lazy" - Andrea Bargnani
Now heard that 3-4 years running... so why not 5. And then we should find out the following year with JV right? And with a different SF the year after that....I'm as skeptical as the next fan but it seems like we're heading towards finding out for sure
perfect. So lets give either Ed or Amir less minutes... and one none at all. Or move them to C because thats going to work so well.Not to mention based on what Casey and Colangelo have said over the summer they're going to give Bargnani a good run at PF.
always one more chance...He could be on his last chance depending on who you talk to but one last chance is long enough to keep him off the chopping block at the leastHe could be on his last chance depending on who you talk to but one last chance is long enough to keep him off the chopping block at the least
its like gamblers syndrome with him
For all we know Colangelo might envision Bargnani excelling next to Big Val and if that's the case Amir or Ed is more likely out. It didn't reassure me this off-season that Casey talked about every big man and forward seemingly besides Ed Davis.
The same would not be said of many of the other teams.
I just can't see it going over very well with the majority of the teams.
In the case of the Raptors, they could work a deal with Jose, that would be beneficial to the team, and to Jose. For Calderon, he gets an opportunity to stay longer with a team I'm assuming he'd like to remain with (while we find a top level PG - and for which Jose can segue into a mentor's role). And for Toronto, they maintain some semblance of veteran-ship - on a youthful team - while acquiring greater flexibility, and a very sweet cap scenario. And if it doesn't work, Raptors can repay Jose with a trade to a Contender.
Hell ... the more I think about it, the more I think this favours teams like Toronto. Raptors could see this positive scenario - relatively speaking - while richer teams who tend to be over the cap, or have minimal room to maneuver, will more or less see only luxury tax relief. For a few teams that we talked about, it may bring more - effectively bolstering the chance of this program becoming reality.
As to whether a smaller market team would agree to this, my perspective was partly based on the allegedly enhanced luxury tax system - a system which would favour the cheaper teams, to the disadvantage of higher spending teams - all relative to the current CBA's set-up. Getting the richer teams on board for an enhanced luxury tax could be difficult. This might ease the pain.
In the end, this is like what Apollo said - a ONE TIME deal. And it could be a WIN WIN situation for many teams. And for some players - they'll actually make more. Which considering the across the board proposed reductions in pay, this scenario might ease that pain - and contribute to actually getting this CBA done.
Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Thu Oct 6th, 2011 at 09:33 PM.
I think it might benefit the Raptors, as well as a few other teams. This I agree with. As I said, the haves. Toronto, for all their inability to put a winning team on the floor, is a have. They are profitable and have a lot of money at their disposal. The problem is that it won't benefit the majority of teams, who don't have a lot of money, wouldn't be able to attract back the player, or any other player, for little money, and probably don't want to see teams that are better than them get an advantage. WHat you have to realize is that if it benefit some teams, there are teams that it won't benefit, and those teams will, by comparison, be hurt by it.
As for getting used to it... its been half a decade of it. I don't see why I should get used to it now. I'll get used to him being productive and active. I won't get used to him taking 18+ft jumpers and not rebounding. I'm not sure why anyone would want the fan base to.
"market value is higher than his Raptors fan value. He's an asset, one of the biggest on the team"
and even then, what is that "some value"? Is it a late first round draft pick and another bad contract? Is that more valuable than having the 10+ mil a year in cap space?
In the list linked to above it was almost unanimous that Bargnani wasn't "the right fit" for each fan's team. They also consistently talk about how "bad" his contract is.
that is arguably one of the better offers made, from a Hornets fan.... and that is only IF both existing PFs decide to leave. Pretty much its "we'll take him off your hands if we have a giant hole to fill and think about giving you a guy with a cool name"making a play for Bargnani if Toronto were essentially giving him away and West/Landry both were to leave. Because of his long term salary and the uncertainty about the new CBA, however, I think the Hornets would explore every other avenue first. The best trade the Hornets can offer?Their TPE and perhaps a future first round pick and/or Quincy Pondexter for Bargnani.
AB vs AB....Constructing a package around Blatche for Bargnani? Again, something highly unlikely. As much of a proponent I am of the Wizards “adding” by “subtracting” Blatche, I certainly don’t think they should do it for someone with a MUCH worse contact who is also fairly worse at defense.Sorry
we saw what the Wizards fan said, how about Orlando?:I don’t think Bargnani is a player that fits what the Lakers want to do on either side of the ball........if the Lakers were to make a deal for him, I think they’d be willing to give up some combination of Artest, Blake, and Walton to get it done. ........ To me, he’d be a much better fit on a team like Orlando where he compliments Howard on both sides of the floor or when paired with a penetrating PG (like Rose or John Wall)
although I bet they'd move Hedo or Gilbert for himBargnani is not the type of difference-maker that Orlando needs and is, therefore, of little value to their team.
anything you guys like here?While all of us here agree that Bargnani is a great offensive weapon, we really don’t see him as a great fit for the Sixers........we would send you Brand, Speights and Brackins for AB, Calderon and Derozen. But I am not sure why the Raps would swing that deal.
...... great job Dumars.I don’t think the Pistons would give up much. Another player who doesn’t rebound or defend is the last thing they need, especially at his contract. I’d think the Pistons would trade some combination of Richard Hamilton, Charlie Villanueva, Jason Maxiell and maybe Ben Gordon.
so between Barg's two most comparable peers (Blatche and Frye), fans of both teams have said they have better value.any deal would have to start with Frye but I don’t something like that would do much for Toronto (why get an inferior version of Bargs) or Phoenix (why get a more expensive version of Frye when you have so many other needs)
The only person who said the team would probably be interested:
(there was also mention of DJ Augustine in there)I would say the team would be extremely open minded in listening to Toronto and their request for Bargnani. The obvious candidates that the Bobcats would try to move are Stephen Jackson, Boris Diaw and DeSagna Diop because of the huge contracts they carry.......... The Bobcats do have two first round picks this year (9 and 19) and I believe they would be interested in moving the 19th pick.
So again a bad contract + a late pick.... maybe DJ Augustine?
Unless I missed one, no one else even bothered to offer their junk for him.
Again this doesn't mean Bargnani won't be traded, and clearly these guys are fans and not GMs... but we can see a consistent stream in here of "Thanks but no thanks. He can't defend or rebound and his contract is too big. If we do offer you something its our own bad contracts". I really don't buy that fans of other teams value Andrea much differently than Raps fans do. Even then most teams are going to need to make contracts work so the Raps will need to take $ back anyways for him.
As I say once a month with Bargnani, I hope I'm wrong. I hope BC does want to move him, values him fairly and other teams are open to dealing for him. Realisticly I see him being a drain on this team for 3 more years and then his expiring contract being dumped.
I see no point in, if he can't be moved by the time amnesty needs to be used, not taking advantage of a situation where his contract is off the books and creating more playing time for Amir and Ed. It is not worth the risk not to.
You're still talking about fan perception. Not GM perception. There's a dramatic difference. Not too many fans would trade for an expiring contract of a crappy player, either, because fans generally want to see dramatic and exciting moves. Coincidentally, probably why a lot of people liked the move to get O'Neal, or the move to get Turk.
GMs consider players as assets. Fans consider them with a lot more emotional baggage. As an asset, Bargnani likely has considerable value around the league, and I doubt it would be difficult to move him, for varying returns depending on the suitor.
Edit: I understand the frustrations with AB, but the constant talk of moving him for the primary reason that he's taking PT away from Ed Davis and Amir Johnson is just as shady as thinking AB will suddenly turn into Dirk Nowitzki under Casey's tutelage. Amir is what he is -- a great, great backup energy guy at the 4/5. He's not a guy who plays 40 minutes for a playoff team. And Ed Davis is still -- promising defensive work in year 1 aside -- very much an unknown. I'm not saying I'd give up on him quickly, but slotting him in right now as a key piece of this team long-term is naive.
Last edited by jimmie; Fri Oct 7th, 2011 at 12:57 PM.
Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
I'd also say that a lot of people view players as assets to. But assets aren't guaranteed to hold their value or be profitable.
(I'd also mention there were alot of people who hated the move to get O'neal and Turk)
Nobody here can speak as a GM. So I guess this is what we're left with -- opinion. Ugh, really... ;-)
I guess I just give the 'AB has value' opinion a little more weight than those I see as more emotionally based (ie. "I've been frustrated by watching AB struggle year after year and be given excuses; I know he's not going to improve and I just want him gone..."). I've seen enough really, really bad contracts moved for decent return to know that there's almost always a buyer, someone who thinks they can derive additional value where the previous franchise could not.
But in the end, it's all opinion. We don't know what Colangelo really thinks of AB (or of AJ and ED, for that matter) and we certainly have no idea what other GMs across the league think of Toronto's assets. We can guess, but we can't know.
Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
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